RE: Jesus and Nationalism

RE: Jesus and Nationalism (Full Version)

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slaveluci -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/20/2009 12:40:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi It saddens me too. It saddens me just as much when the left-wing liberals do it. Does that part bother you? No. It only bothers me when certain people do it.[8\|] Obviously it's disturbing when anyone does it. I just don't happen to see the "left-wing liberals" using His words to propogate hate and intolerance like the right-wingers so often do. That's all I'm sayin'. It's wrong no matter who does it or why..............luci

Sanity -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/20/2009 12:46:19 PM)
You haven't seen any Youtube videos of Jeremiah Wright then? quote: No. It only bothers me when certain people do it. Obviously it's disturbing when anyone does it. I just don't happen to see the "left-wing liberals" using His words to propogate hate and intolerance like the right-wingers so often do. That's all I'm sayin'. It's wrong no matter who does it or why..............luci

numuncular -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/20/2009 5:53:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lazarus1983 So I am the proud owner of Bill Maher's documentary Religulous. For those that haven't watched it, Bill Maher travels the world and asks the three major religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) questions most people are too afraid to ask. He also makes a couple stops along the way with Mormonism and Scientology. In any case, one of the excellent points he brings up is that in America you hear over and over, "God and country!" and something along the lines of, "I know them folks over there are hurting, but you got to take care of your own first!" Maher points out that what Jesus preached would not have been compatible with nationalism. Jesus wouldn't say "America first!" or preach that we should put our own country first ahead of others. It was an interesting point, and one that has never been brought up. What are your thoughts on it? i dont think its too much of a leap to come to the obvious conclusion that religion has been hi-jacked by nationalism a lot and I cant imagine theres any part of the new testament that affirms nationality... but surely the whole idea of nationalism is one that evolved a long time after the time it was written anyway? even the romans didnt have a nation as such. as for bill maher, whilst I new who he was and had seen his show once or twice was I the only one shocked at his rabid islamophobia and the double standards used in religolous to enforce it?

sweetgirlserves -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/20/2009 6:00:25 PM)
Jesus is concerned with building the church... the universal christian church. Nothing nationalistic about that... unless of course you are a christian nation.

FangsNfeet -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/20/2009 11:02:18 PM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4wojcSO9Ww

thishereboi -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 5:47:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi It saddens me too. It saddens me just as much when the left-wing liberals do it. Does that part bother you? No. It only bothers me when certain people do it.[8\|] Obviously it's disturbing when anyone does it. I just don't happen to see the "left-wing liberals" using His words to propogate hate and intolerance like the right-wingers so often do. That's all I'm sayin'. It's wrong no matter who does it or why..............luci Oh ok. I would invite you to my church were you could meet a whole bunch of them, but your not in Michigan. I have met many in life and they are no different than the ones on the right. They use the same arguments to condem others, they just don't get mentioned as much. For some reason when people start bitching they only mention the right wingers. I guess it is the same logic that says I can't be conservative if I am gay. Like I am supposed to believe anyone on the left loves homosexuals and anyone on the right despises them. It's just not true.

maletpeslave -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 10:16:48 AM)
Christianity, ie Catholicism, was/is an international movement. It became nationalistic after the "failure" of the Crusades, the ego of Martin Luther, and the pee pee problems of Henry VIII. Hopefully some day there will be one, unified universal Church that knows no nationalism, but I won't be holding my breath.

DomKen -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 11:53:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave Christianity, ie Catholicism, was/is an international movement. It became nationalistic after the "failure" of the Crusades, the ego of Martin Luther, and the pee pee problems of Henry VIII. Hopefully some day there will be one, unified universal Church that knows no nationalism, but I won't be holding my breath. It was nationalistic long before any of that. The church first split when the Roman nation split. The two leaders of the two churches even annointed their own secular monarchs of the Roman empire until quite recently.

numuncular -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 12:23:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave Christianity, ie Catholicism, was/is an international movement. It became nationalistic after the "failure" of the Crusades, the ego of Martin Luther, and the pee pee problems of Henry VIII. Hopefully some day there will be one, unified universal Church that knows no nationalism, but I won't be holding my breath. I bet you a million dollars I can guess what sect of christianity you belong too!

maletpeslave -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 5:09:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave Christianity, ie Catholicism, was/is an international movement. It became nationalistic after the "failure" of the Crusades, the ego of Martin Luther, and the pee pee problems of Henry VIII. Hopefully some day there will be one, unified universal Church that knows no nationalism, but I won't be holding my breath. It was nationalistic long before any of that. The church first split when the Roman nation split. The two leaders of the two churches even annointed their own secular monarchs of the Roman empire until quite recently. The East, while strong for much of the dark ages, was a shadow of its former self by the time of the 4th Crusade and the establishment of the Latin Empire. The West, ie Charlemagne and the creation of the Holy Roman Empire, was the true legitimate successor to the empire of Constantine. I don't see how the East could claim it since the fall of Contantinople, unless you believe that the Czar of Russia was the true spiritual descendent of the Catholic Caesars. Now of course, the Great Schism that you reference did happen before the days of Outremmer, however the East was quite weak by that point. While there was nationalistic egos during the Crusades (especially the 3rd), it usually took second place to the international motivations of Christendom as a whole.

DomKen -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 5:26:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave Christianity, ie Catholicism, was/is an international movement. It became nationalistic after the "failure" of the Crusades, the ego of Martin Luther, and the pee pee problems of Henry VIII. Hopefully some day there will be one, unified universal Church that knows no nationalism, but I won't be holding my breath. It was nationalistic long before any of that. The church first split when the Roman nation split. The two leaders of the two churches even annointed their own secular monarchs of the Roman empire until quite recently. The East, while strong for much of the dark ages, was a shadow of its former self by the time of the 4th Crusade and the establishment of the Latin Empire. The West, ie Charlemagne and the creation of the Holy Roman Empire, was the true legitimate successor to the empire of Constantine. I don't see how the East could claim it since the fall of Contantinople, unless you believe that the Czar of Russia was the true spiritual descendent of the Catholic Caesars. Now of course, the Great Schism that you reference did happen before the days of Outremmer, however the East was quite weak by that point. While there was nationalistic egos during the Crusades (especially the 3rd), it usually took second place to the international motivations of Christendom as a whole. Neither Charlemagne nor the Hapsburgs were legitimate successors to the roman empire. It was simply a conceit given to the favored supporters of the papacy. But a nice try at throwing 1200 years of history out with a wink and a nod.

maletpeslave -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 5:44:57 PM)
If one feels the East was the only legitimate successor to the one Church, well, it was destroyed, and that Church doesn't exist anymore. Right before the fall of Constantinople, the remnants of the East agreed to communion with the West, so your point is mute anyways. Maybe you think the Turks are the one true Church since they minareted Hagia Sophia?

numuncular -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 5:46:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave If one feels the East was the only legitimate successor to the one Church, well, it was destroyed, and that Church doesn't exist anymore. Right before the fall of Constantinople, the remnants of the East agreed to communion with the West, so your point is mute anyways. Maybe you think the Turks are the one true Church since they minareted Hagia Sophia? is there being "one true church" actually important to you?

maletpeslave -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 5:50:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave If one feels the East was the only legitimate successor to the one Church, well, it was destroyed, and that Church doesn't exist anymore. Right before the fall of Constantinople, the remnants of the East agreed to communion with the West, so your point is mute anyways. Maybe you think the Turks are the one true Church since they minareted Hagia Sophia? is there being "one true church" actually important to you? Yes, actually it is very important to me. I feel that a strong universal Church limits nationalistic tendencies and allows Western Civilization a united front against its traditional enemies.

numuncular -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/21/2009 6:20:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave If one feels the East was the only legitimate successor to the one Church, well, it was destroyed, and that Church doesn't exist anymore. Right before the fall of Constantinople, the remnants of the East agreed to communion with the West, so your point is mute anyways. Maybe you think the Turks are the one true Church since they minareted Hagia Sophia? is there being "one true church" actually important to you? Yes, actually it is very important to me. I feel that a strong universal Church limits nationalistic tendencies and allows Western Civilization a united front against its traditional enemies. we could surely not go back to the days of power being concentrated in rome though could we? especially not now that the different churches are so different, a lot of catholicism is after all repugnant to many. btw what enemies are these?

maletpeslave -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/22/2009 11:16:35 AM)
Many religions are considered repugnant to many people. Western self hate is a whole other matter.

philosophy -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/22/2009 11:23:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular is there being "one true church" actually important to you? Yes, actually it is very important to me. I feel that a strong universal Church limits nationalistic tendencies and allows Western Civilization a united front against its traditional enemies. .......sounds like you're a fan of theocracy. Would have thought the problems with that form of governence were well-known by now.

DomKen -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/22/2009 11:28:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave quote: ORIGINAL: numuncular is there being "one true church" actually important to you? Yes, actually it is very important to me. I feel that a strong universal Church limits nationalistic tendencies and allows Western Civilization a united front against its traditional enemies. .......sounds like you're a fan of theocracy. Would have thought the problems with that form of governence were well-known by now. If not pay attention to the news today.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/22/2009 11:29:45 AM)
So are you going to clue us in on who these traditional enemies are? quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave Many religions are considered repugnant to many people. Western self hate is a whole other matter.

numuncular -> RE: Jesus and Nationalism (6/22/2009 1:29:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf So are you going to clue us in on who these traditional enemies are? quote: ORIGINAL: maletpeslave Many religions are considered repugnant to many people. Western self hate is a whole other matter. i suspect he's a wind up merchant.

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