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Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 3:25:29 PM

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So I am the proud owner of Bill Maher's documentary Religulous. For those that haven't watched it, Bill Maher travels the world and asks the three major religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) questions most people are too afraid to ask. He also makes a couple stops along the way with Mormonism and Scientology.

In any case, one of the excellent points he brings up is that in America you hear over and over, "God and country!" and something along the lines of, "I know them folks over there are hurting, but you got to take care of your own first!"

Maher points out that what Jesus preached would not have been compatible with nationalism. Jesus wouldn't say "America first!" or preach that we should put our own country first ahead of others. It was an interesting point, and one that has never been brought up.

What are your thoughts on it?

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 3:34:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

So I am the proud owner of Bill Maher's documentary Religulous. For those that haven't watched it, Bill Maher travels the world and asks the three major religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) questions most people are too afraid to ask. He also makes a couple stops along the way with Mormonism and Scientology.

In any case, one of the excellent points he brings up is that in America you hear over and over, "God and country!" and something along the lines of, "I know them folks over there are hurting, but you got to take care of your own first!"

Maher points out that what Jesus preached would not have been compatible with nationalism. Jesus wouldn't say "America first!" or preach that we should put our own country first ahead of others. It was an interesting point, and one that has never been brought up.

What are your thoughts on it?

That's pretty well in-line with what I've been saying all along.

I don't think God sees things in terms of Americans, or Mexicans, or Africans, or Asians. I hope that if there is a God, that we have the kind of God that sees things in terms of joy and suffering, and love and hate, and peace and war - and Who would really rather we strive towards joy, and love, and peace.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 4:01:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Maher points out that what Jesus preached would not have been compatible with nationalism. Jesus wouldn't say "America first!" or preach that we should put our own country first ahead of others. It was an interesting point, and one that has never been brought up.

What are your thoughts on it?

In its most honest form: the Church of England would suggest that English values are to be cherished and safeguarded at all costs yet it is a vociferous opponent of war and destruction.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 5:33:24 PM

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I think faith is a trait that grows more powerful with practice. If one has grown used to obeying an authority which cannot even be proven to exist, that person surely would be more inclined to follow nationalism to the logical next step of fascism.

One could point out the logical fallacies of advocating certain tenants of Christianity while following a nationalist agenda, but then it is also true that one could go blue in the face listing the myriad logical fallacies of any faith. Do not look for reason in religion; the two are mutually exclusive.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 5:54:21 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I hope that if there is a God, that we have the kind of God that sees things in terms of joy and suffering, and love and hate, and peace and war - and Who would really rather we strive towards joy, and love, and peace.

Would life think in terms of hate and war; something tells me, no.

General:

My perspective goes beyond nationality. ‘Man’ spans the globe; therefore the whole existence of humans constitutes ‘man’. I do not see one part more important than the other, though one can definitely live without say, a leg, or arm.

On the other hand, America is ‘man’s’ head; I am unsure of how to fix any other part of the body, when what is in the head is not working properly.

I doubt Jesus would advise to take on more than one can handle, as it would only end up making things worse, but I’m inclined to believe, it is not whether or not help is offered, but what kind of help is offered.

Kim

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 5:55:20 PM

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Countries are political boundaries created by mankind. People are created by God to some and whoever/whatever to others. We are as people the same, despite the differences we choose to see. Ideally if I understand correctly everyone no matter where they are from or what they look like come first, before any political boundary created by man. The question is, what is the most powerful, man made boundaries, or the word of your god, I suppose what is real, as opposed to what is an ideal.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 6:38:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983
Maher points out that what Jesus preached would not have been compatible with nationalism. Jesus wouldn't say "America first!" or preach that we should put our own country first ahead of others. It was an interesting point, and one that has never been brought up.

It's been brought up before, believe me. I've discussed it with folks quite a bit myself. This is just one of many things that don't match up with Christ's teachings. He didn't endorse hatred, homophobia, nationalism, or numerous other things many "Christian" folks stand upon. Doesn't seem to matter to many of them. As a Christian who is not a right-wing conservative, it often saddens me to see how they twist His words. Nothing new, sadly..............luci

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 6:50:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983
. As a Christian who is not a right-wing conservative, it often saddens me to see how they twist His words. Nothing new, sadly..............luci

It saddens me too. It saddens me just as much when the left-wing liberals do it. Does that part bother you?

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 8:48:07 PM

olena

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Being devoted to your faith and using religion to control and judge are two very different things. Governments, religious extremists from all faiths and screwed up people do the latter. They start with an end game and work their way back to religious doctrine. It is nothing more then using religion as a tool to control and manipulate and has nothing to do with religion itself.

Anyone or anything that tries to make religion more then an internal journey of an individual to the point of us against them is not doing right by what Jesus taught.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 8:53:05 PM

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Jesus wouldn't have said "america first" anyway (since "america" wasn't it's name at the time even if he'd wanted to).

I think it must be really difficult to live in the USA all your life and not realise that there is more than one country in America.

If Jesus was anything like what he's cracked up to be then the TV evangelists would all be skint, having spent their booty on helping the poor and unfortunate.

So many "heathens" had to die at the hands of "god fearing" people ?

Sounds like a con trick to me.

Pirate

(in reply to lazarus1983)

RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 9:06:42 PM

kdsub

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lazarus I think many non-religious people confuse religion in America with religion in Islamic countries.

In some countries with a majority Muslim population religion is an integral part of governing. Laws are made and followed according to their religious texts. That is not the case in most democratic countries with freedom of religion.

In America there are religious people in the government or there are political groups that solicit support from religious individuals and groups. But the government does not make policy according to religion.

If the majority of legislatures are religious it is just reflecting the make up of the populace. The mores of the populace will be reflected in the policy of the electorate. There is a difference in following the wants and needs of those who elect you and following the demands of a religious text.

Our representatives will continue to reflect the make up of our nation…be it religious or at some future time not religious…But all laws will continue to be judged against the constitution not the Bible...Koran... or any other religious text.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/19/2009 9:08:47 PM >

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 9:13:35 PM

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So where does Jesus figure in your postulations?

Pirate

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 11:30:31 PM

kdsub

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Pirate I'm not sure what you mean...I would say my political positions match many here on CM that have at least insinuated they are not religious...this is true I think with most Christians...As an example Christians and atheist alike in general support the same majority legislation in America. Jesus does not enter into it.

Christians and atheists can both be moral and believe in the same course for the future of our nation.

Any block of common thinking people will be solicited for their votes…Christians are just one block in this country…Although if you check out the percentage of Christians in the total population of America I think you will understand why their votes are important to both political parties.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/19/2009 11:31:55 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/19/2009 11:48:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

Jesus wouldn't have said "america first" anyway (since "america" wasn't it's name at the time even if he'd wanted to).

I think it must be really difficult to live in the USA all your life and not realise that there is more than one country in America.

If Jesus was anything like what he's cracked up to be then the TV evangelists would all be skint, having spent their booty on helping the poor and unfortunate.

So many "heathens" had to die at the hands of "god fearing" people ?

Sounds like a con trick to me.

Pirate

Excellent contribution picking apart semantics. You've really advanced this discussion.

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The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/20/2009 12:01:15 AM

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You think that's a nifty contradiction, try bringing up the typical revulsion of socialism and adherence to capitalism as it conflicts with the asceticism that is often found in the scriptural stories of what Jesus is supposed to have said.

No contradiction, however, will ever fly sufficiently into the face of the fact that each individual is able to fabricate their deity in their own desired image. It would defeat the entire point of theistic addiction.

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(in reply to lazarus1983)

RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/20/2009 12:38:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

No contradiction, however, will ever fly sufficiently into the face of the fact that each individual is able to fabricate their deity in their own desired image. It would defeat the entire point of theistic addiction.

Indeed, it's a shame we rarely invent gods bigger or better than ourselves. They always seem to have the manners of a spoiled child.

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The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.

- Ayn Rand

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/20/2009 1:11:35 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

No contradiction, however, will ever fly sufficiently into the face of the fact that each individual is able to fabricate their deity in their own desired image. It would defeat the entire point of theistic addiction.

Indeed, it's a shame we rarely invent gods bigger or better than ourselves. They always seem to have the manners of a spoiled child.

Because we create god in our own image.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/20/2009 2:53:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: krystallnacht

If one has grown used to obeying an authority which cannot even be proven to exist, that person surely would be more inclined to follow nationalism to the logical next step of fascism.

The Church of England has made it its business to be barely prescriptive; it is enough to have faith and turn up at church once a year. In fact its an organisation that prides itself on voluntary association and it rejects the dogma of Catholicism. I'm not so sure your reasoning can be used as a one size fits all. The English religion is not Catholic but its not really Protestant either; it owes far more to Erasmus and the every day world than it does to Martin Luther: in other words it's a pragmatic belief system for a pragmatic people. Were you to ask an English vicar what the Church of England stands for he'd say: "well that rather depends" - in other words it is that which you desire.

And the Church of England has shaped the values and politics of this country. The people reflect the church and the the spirit is not one of Nationalism - local identity is far more important here in keeping with the church's spirit of individualism and voluntary association. So when the British Empire was in its pomp it was built on the idea of trade commerce and individual business initiatives rather than Nationalism.

Stable countries with few borders tend to be the ones that do not lurch between extreme politics such as Fascism and Communism because they don't have the threat from maruading forces marching over their borders. I'd suggest that religion isn't a common denominator in extreme politics.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/20/2009 3:00:58 AM

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On the OP: would Jesus not have said: "your own first"? It doesn't necessarily follow that 'turning the other cheek' lends toward putting others before yourself.

I think he would probably have said: "build a system of co-existence that lends itself toward harmony". In order to create this you would have to put yourself first at times.

What he certainly wouldn't have said is: "go ahead and bomb villages and their inhabitants on the back of the mythical weapons of mass destruction which incidentally you have too but prefer to call them a nuclear deterrent".

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Jesus and Nationalism - 6/20/2009 5:34:34 AM

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quote:

On the OP: would Jesus not have said: "your own first"? It doesn't necessarily follow that 'turning the other cheek' lends toward putting others before yourself.

No, doesn't seem likely. Read Matthew 25:31-46. Or the Beatitudes. Or love thy neighbor as thyself.

Or read The Family and join the U.S. religious faction that wants to conquer the globe for wealthy followers of Jesus. They have some pretty bizarre ideas about what Jesus would say too.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/20/2009 5:46:03 AM >

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