RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege?

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/25/2009 2:10:17 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

It depends on the state. However, don't confuse the issue or get sidetracked about the right to drink a BEER.

The question is WHO DECIDES what qualifies one for the privilege. Anytime you qualify something you open it up to abuse by those who would restrict it.

No it doesn't. Every state in the Union has a 21 minimum drinking age. The last hold out was Louisiana in the late 80's. Any state not complying with the Federal demand to raise the drinking age to 21 had Federal highway funding withdrawn.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/25/2009 2:47:46 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Right to vote for what?

I believe most ground has been covered so far, but the majority do not rule 100% as they still must do so within the framework of that nations Constitution (if there is one). In the US, the Constitution was framed in such a way that it would protect the minority (religion, speech, etc.) or individual.

In the US we do not have a right to vote for President at a national level, because it is a popular vote that people make and the President is determined by an electoral vote.

There is an old topic somewhere that I mentioned the movie Lion's for Lambs, and Heinlen's Starship Troopers. It was basically a theory to engage the individual in someway with the nation/community.

We can call it a right all we wish, but if it can arbitrarily be taken away (via laws, or the changing of laws) then I see it as a privilege.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/25/2009 11:14:27 PM

HatesParisHilton

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"Forcing the vote thru a legal requirement isn't fair. The guy in Intensive care can't vote."

No, and I was next to that guy in the the ward after they'd sliced his head open to try to remove tumour masses and failed.

We shared a room next to a 22 year old culturally parasitic piece of shit that was enjoying the public health system, who'd had a neck injury because although hale and hearty enough to catch the wrong wave that dumped him on his dumb-ass lazy as fuck head. But healthy enough to do the work he was avoiding while being on the dole for several years. At the expenseof myself and the tumour man (with a wfe and 2 kids).

Surfer Tick (he's not a human, he's a fucking tick), was going to make a full recovery. Not so for Father of Two.

Surfer Tick joked about how he'd avoided the last voting responsibility to go go catch some dumpers. Knowing Father of Two was in the next room.

Surfer tick can catch swine flu and fucking DIE.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/26/2009 9:47:44 PM

Belittled

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This post is useless.

SNAAAAAAAP.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 6/26/2009 10:12:16 PM

HatesParisHilton

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there's no "snap" in a stereotype or living less by living as one, punky brewster.

especially when you're too young to vote anyway, which removes any pragmatic input yu have on voting.

Not that YOU'D bother anyway.

Go listen to some Coldplay for two years and get back to us then.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 10:48:12 AM

Plutonic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
The reason many dont vote isnt due to apathy, its due to all parties acting the same way once in power.

The fact is that the most powerful people in the country are largely not elected- they are the people in big business and the mass media, and senior judges and civil servants. Academics are also powerful insofar as they get to indoctrinate people who will exercise power in the future.

Much political power in Britain is exercised by people who don't even live here, such as Rupert Murdoch.

< Message edited by Plutonic -- 7/5/2009 11:10:49 AM >

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 12:39:59 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Say a days community service a year not a great sacrifice granted built enough hopefully to remind people of the incredible liberty they possess. In this way the only people voting would be those willing to ape [if only in a very small way] those who granted us the freedoms we enjoy so blithely.

I have to work to be able to vote? You say you want to increase voter turnout? Seriously I wouldn't work a single second to elect any of the wasters in the Tory party that'll get in next election. Not voting is voting and if MP's want to reduce apathy they should look at how their self image encourages or discourages people to vote.

Elections are decided as much by apathy as they are by voting i.e. up and down the country there are easily more traditional Labour voters than conservative voters. The thing is that conservatives can occasionally call all their people to vote and vice versa. People don’t often change allegiances from one party to another but instead they vote Liberal or some other single issue party as a protest vote. There is nothing wrong with apathy it has always played a part with spoiled papers etc.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 12:45:02 PM

Starbuck09

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Spoiling a paper is a very different prospect to not bothering to turn up at the ballot box. Why should the political parties do anything they can behave how they like as long as they remain within the law. Apathy means nothing changes as the parties don't need to. You don't have to work to vote conservative if you do not want to you would be working to vote for a party that you wanted. I don't suggest this measure as a way to increase voter turn out per se but as a method to ensure that those who do vote have an underrstanding no matter how small of how lucky they are.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 12:55:44 PM

FullCircle

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Spoiling a paper is just as likely to result in the election of an extremist party. Now I have to go into the booth and put the x in the wrong place to demonstrate the same moral decision I could demonstrate by not voting at all?

I'm a Labour supporter I'll never vote conservative but I know the margin of the Labour win in my area thus I'm quietly confident I don't have to do anything to maintain the status quo. Anyone with the slightest mathematical understanding wouldn't waste their time voting under this system. The politicians only campaign in a few key swing constituencies and all we are doing by voting is holding the extremists at bay.

If you want to fight apathy you should be looking at PR rather than first past the post perhaps but firstly you have to deal with the extremists because they'll get more representation under PR.

I’ll most likely vote but I’m not happy about it and I feel I’m wasting my time, I’m not enthused like I was in 1997. All parties need to work on that not the voters.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 1:00:52 PM

Starbuck09

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Spoiling a paper does indeed not have any greater effect then not turning up but you DO have to turn up and I believe that is important. Extremist parties benefit from apathy because their members tend to be actively interested in the political process in a way which much of the general public is not. You can't ''deal'' with the extremists in any way but by having a more admirable party and that is up to us as we live in a democracy. This thread is not simply about how to get more people to vote. It is about a method of voting which does not allow complacency and reminds those that do vote of the privilege they hold.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 1:11:14 PM

FullCircle

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Personally I think working to vote sends the wrong message in this regard as I feel people also died for peoples right not to vote. If the choice is limited you shouldn't be forcing people to choose in some show vote. Apathy sends the message to the opposition that there are a lot of floating voters to get support from and that is how it should be seen. Making people work to vote will not encourage people to vote but do exactly the opposite.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 1:15:51 PM

Starbuck09

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But i'mnot putting this fwad s h to simply increavoing, but as a means by which those that want to vote have t make a sacrifice[even if it is small] to obtain it.If you don't want to vote you don't have to I don't endorse the view of forcing peop to the ballot box. I think going to a ballot box and spoiling your vote gives a strong message to the government whereas apathy allows parties to rest on their laurels as there is still enough people voting to give them legitimacy so what do they care? It does however give much greater power to fringe parties whose voters do not suffer from the same apathy as their mainstream counterparts.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 1:42:19 PM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

In British Society we as citizens enjoy enormous power in that we are able to directly influence the manner in which we are ruled through our vote.

I wonder if perhaps a token gesture was needed to be eligible to vote our situation would be better. Say a days community service a year not a great sacrifice granted built enough hopefully to remind people of the incredible liberty they possess.

I seem to recall that those working for a living whatever their particular occupation work something like 100 days a year in terms of the taxes they pay, solely for the government. If this is not community service, given that these taxes go to pay for the many varied government programmes which are for the benefit (ahem) of all, then what is it?

In other words, we already do many more times the community service which you suggest - and yet still there is growing apathy, even though were that apathy reversed and votes were used, the number of days of community service before we stopped paying taxes and started earning, might be significantly reduced.

Such a line of reasoning also indicates that those who do not contribute in this way should not get a vote at all, whilst those who (being higher rate earners) contribute more, should get additional weight added to their vote. Realised, it is inevitable that such would lead to a reduction in the number of days work required to meet government spending objectives, with consequent adverse effects on those benefitting from much of that spending who should not get to vote.

The thing is that the majority of people do not support such a utilitarian approach in this matter, nor in other matters where one proposes an approach which whilst grounded firmly in reality (eg your take on war etc) is bereft of the higher principles to which they aspire.

The problem is that the mainstream no longer espouses higher principles either - ideologies have given way to pragmatism and public relations which are recognised as such very readily by the electorate, which grows more and more cynical at it all, leading to apathy - and of late its antithesis, anger.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 2:01:02 PM

ThatDaveGuy69

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I think it's perfectly OK to stay home on election.

BUT...

I better not ever hear a non-voter utter even the slimmest suggestion of a complaint about who's in office.

And let's please get over this "both parties suck" nonsense. If only 50% vote for the Dems & Repubs, the other 50% could sweep-in a 3rd-party.

As to the original question, in the US, voting is a right. Period. I would make a minor change to that equation. You can only renew you driver's license if you voted. Voting would still be optional. Just as driving is.

But then again I would make signing up for organ donation a requirement to DL renewal... But that's a whole different debate...

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 2:15:03 PM

LookieNoNookie

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Both.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 2:31:04 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I think it's perfectly OK to stay home on election.

BUT...

I better not ever hear a non-voter utter even the slimmest suggestion of a complaint about who's in office.

So if they don't use the right to vote, they lose their freedom of speech? What if they sent money to support a campaign, and didn't vote? What if they spoke to and persuaded 5 others to vote, but didn't themselves? Sorry but this "if you don't vote you go no right to complain" is bullshit, coming from you or anyone else that espouses to it. Vocal dissent and discussion is the cornerstone of the US, and nobody has a right to vote for President on a federal level.

quote:

And let's please get over this "both parties suck" nonsense. If only 50% vote for the Dems & Repubs, the other 50% could sweep-in a 3rd-party.

Nonsense? Both parties are primarily corporatist. If you want to show some evidence that the majority of them are not, I will be happy to avalache you in information to the contrary. Both parties have whipped their bases into such a frenzy, that most will excuse bad behavior as long as they win, win, win.

quote:

As to the original question, in the US, voting is a right. Period. I would make a minor change to that equation. You can only renew you driver's license if you voted. Voting would still be optional. Just as driving is.

But then again I would make signing up for organ donation a requirement to DL renewal... But that's a whole different debate...

~Dave

That will get more people to vote maybe, but then voting becomes just pulling the arm on a slot machine. If you want people to become engaged, you make it so they must serve either 1 year military, 1 year Peace Corp ( or something similar) or 1 year inner city youth programs (or something similar). Then at least it is some of their own blood, sweat and tears that is making the country better.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 2:48:58 PM

Arpig

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OK Starbuck, I have a couple of questions for you.

1) What benefit would this token service for vote plan actually have? The people who do vote now would most likely still vote, and the people who do not vote now would most likely still not vote, and all that this plan would accomplish is to create another vast bureaucracy to administer it.

2) What would prevent additional requirtements from being put in place once the basic idea of a requirement is established? What is to stop your "token" 1 day of service from being changed to 1 week, or say 2-years in the military to qualify to vote?

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Martin Niemöller

< Message edited by Arpig -- 7/5/2009 2:49:35 PM >

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 2:54:40 PM

Starbuck09

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The benefit would be to remind people of how great a liberty the ability to vote is, this is not a method to increase voting turnout it is a method, hopefully, to ensure that by having to make a sacrifice people will not take the vote for granted. I fail to see how this is a small step down a long road arpig and in an earlier post I outlined a method to ensure it will not lead to abuse. Have a national referendum if people vote for it excellent if not then fair enough. Then at the start of each general electiion the same referendum could be held to see if the people still had faith in the idea if not it would be repealed. I don't understand why you have made that quote either, this victimises no one the vote is still open to anybody.

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 3:28:16 PM

Arpig

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Sorry Starbuck, I see no benefit at all, other than to the bureaucrats who administer this system. It will, if anything reduce the number of people who vote, and that surely is not a good thing. In order to remind people what a great thing it is to have the right to vote, you propose taking away that right. Sure you replace it with a priveledge of voting after having jumped through certain hoops (and believe you me there will be hoops....Sorry Mr. Smith, but the only day we have available for your voting service is Wednesday the 14th...what that is the day of your mother's funeral, well so sorry, I guess you will just have to either miss the funeral or pass on voting, there is nothing you can do about it. Yes you can appeal, in triplicate within 10 days of this decision, the Voting Rights Tribunal will consider your case within the next3-6 months....that is after the election? I am so sorry Mr Smith, there is nothing I can do. Next please?")

And surely you are not proposing we have a national referendum every 4-5 years on this question? Do you have the slightest idea how frigging expensive a national referendum is to administer??? They are expensive damn things, and to have to hold one every election cycle is simply irresponsible use of public money.

The universal vote is based on a very simple premise, which the US Declaration of Independance summed up best "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" All are equal, the right to vote is the very foundation of our liberty, be it in Canada, Australia, the US, or the UK. That right, the universal suffrage, is the building block of all others, for that right alone is the one that allows us to effectively govern ourselves.

And I included the quote because it is very relevant, you are proposing taking away the most fundamental of democratic rights. Yes you are replacing it with an earned privelidge, but just because that law will not affect my ability to vote right now, once it has been established that the Government has the right to restrict the vote based on certain criteria, there is nothing to prevent the government from adding other criteria. And just because the first time a referendum is held to pass the law, does not mean that a future government will also use a referendum. The surest and only way of preventing the government from removing your right to vote is to prevent the government from restricting that right at all. (I may be wrong, but my understanding is that in Canada, even those serving time in prison are allowed to vote, regardless of the crime they were convicted of)

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RE: Should voting be a right or a privilege? - 7/5/2009 3:37:43 PM

cadenas

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I find this juxtaposition quite interesting

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Extremist parties benefit from apathy because their members tend to be actively interested in the political process in a way which much of the general public is not. You can't ''deal'' with the extremists in any way but by having a more admirable party and that is up to us as we live in a democracy. This thread is not simply about how to get more people to vote. It is about a method of voting which does not allow complacency and reminds those that do vote of the privilege they hold.

And then a little later, you suggest something that is going to encourage voter apathy and benefit the extremist parties...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
But i'mnot putting this fwad s h to simply increavoing, but as a means by which those that want to vote have t make a sacrifice[even if it is small] to obtain it.

Who do you think is more likely to pay this poll tax?

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