"Assertive Submissives"???

"Assertive Submissives"??? (Full Version)

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GhostWhoWalks -> "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:11:09 AM)
Some people identify themselves as "assertive submissives". At first glance, "assertive" and "submissive" appear to be mutually exclusive. Are those people who identify themselves as "assertive submissives" just what they say they are? Or something else? In general, people are NOT simple. Period. Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphine and other sensations? Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? Your thoughts?

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:19:04 AM)
quote: ...Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people?... it has been this slave's experience that this is the definition of "submissive" that most identify with...and the one that folks in conventional relationships have little to no problem with. quote: ...Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true?... yeah...the most annoying, for this slave, is the assumption that any variation that doesn't fall under the "situational submissive" type is not attractive or healthy---and folks assume you must be sliding down the slope to mental illness, if you aren't already there.

justme1980 -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:29:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhostWhoWalks Some people identify themselves as "assertive submissives". At first glance, "assertive" and "submissive" appear to be mutually exclusive. Are those people who identify themselves as "assertive submissives" just what they say they are? Or something else? In general, people are NOT simple. Period. Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphine and other sensations? Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? Your thoughts? Are those people who identify themselves as "assertive submissives" just what they say they are? Or something else? Just like anything else, depends on the individual Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphine and other sensations? Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? situational scans the gammit, they are sometimes referred to as players Just because I am assertive does not mean I want my butt paddled for pleasure or pain Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? the assumptions vary from person to person. it is not a question of what is right or wrong. just worry about your partner, and don't get hung up on labeling, it will give you an eternal headache

leadership527 -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:31:33 AM)
~FR~ what Beth said... both times...

olena -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:41:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ...Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people?... it has been this slave's experience that this is the definition of "submissive" that most identify with...and the one that folks in conventional relationships have little to no problem with. quote: ...Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true?... yeah...the most annoying, for this slave, is the assumption that any variation that doesn't fall under the "situational submissive" type is not attractive or healthy---and folks assume you must be sliding down the slope to mental illness, if you aren't already there. I agree with this as well. There is a difference between a person with such a submissive personality to the degree they need to please everyone indiscriminately and people who enjoy and fit best at submitting to the person they care for. There is the typical stereotype that submissive means weak and unable to take care of ourselves. Assertive is a strong word therefore is not connected to being submissive. But people who are strong and assertive in life tend to have the most happiness in life and get what they want. This includes submissives as well. Being submissive still requires strength, effort and assertiveness in some degree.

RumpusParable -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:49:55 AM)
One can certainly be assertive and submissive at the same time, these aren't necessarily contradictory traits or behaviors. The problem lies in when someone means dominant when they say "assertive". The OP wasn't clear whether they were meaning "assertive submissive" in the usage of "I'm dominant everywhere else except the situations I submit in" or "I'm assertive in and out of my submission". Different things, neither of which is bad. And yes, I'd definitely say "submissive" carries a list of erroneous or just plain nasty assumptions to it... a key pet peeve of mine being what I've responded about: that "submissive" is not interchangeable with "passive". One can be completely submissive to their partner and still be active and assertive in the relationship... I personally have no interest in, and unfortunately have run into too many of, submissives who were relationship and sexual dead-arses. I expect to have the last word in decisions, not be as-good-as-alone and hauling someone's weight around (figuratively or literally).

CreativeDominant -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 11:52:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhostWhoWalks Some people identify themselves as "assertive submissives". At first glance, "assertive" and "submissive" appear to be mutually exclusive. Are those people who identify themselves as "assertive submissives" just what they say they are? Or something else? There's nothing that says that the answer to either question can't be "yes". In the first case, in D/s, submission means to yield your will to that of another. This occurs on many levels...for some, not many areas are yielded but the ones they do yield, they yield to the full extent. For some, quite a few areas are yielded but only up to a certain extent of control. There's all kinds of variations within that. But none of that means assertion cannot come into play. Yielding to something which you like, or do not like, because you not only feel submissive towards a dominant but trust them does not mean (necessarily though it does happen in several cases) that you lose your brain and will not assert/defend yourself when the pushing goes beyond what you've agreed to in certain areas or when the dominant has stepped outside of the boundaries he himself has set for himself. None of this goes against what I've said on other threads in the last few days for, in the second case, there are those who claim to be submissive while insisting that the dynamic go all their way, that they only yield to that which pleases them or suits them at that moment in time. That...for me...is when they are something else and not submissive. They may be someone else's idea of a submissive but not mine. quote: In general, people are NOT simple. Period. Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphine and other sensations? It could be, for some. Not necessarily for others. (see what I said above) quote: Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? Sure. e.g....the CEO of a company who spends his whole day running the organization, giving orders, initiating plans, etc. and then goes home to the wife/girlfriend/pro dominant who recognizes his need for someone else to take control for awhile, whether it be a pain session or a bedroom session or just in their general life. It may well be that this partner and only a very few people can make him feel submission in any way and it may only be in specific instances that these other people can make him feel submissive whereas his partner may make him feel that way all the time. Again, endless variations. quote: Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? Your thoughts? Sure it does and you have to find what is "true" for you and those you seek to be with. I've stated elsewhere this week and in numerous prior threads that for me, my submissive is going to have to be someone who understands that I need to have her approach me once in awhile for sex/play, someone who gives her own thoughts and feelings as well as MY thoughts and feelings priority over the thoughts and feelings of other friends, lovers, play partners, family for the greatest part while understanding that I am sensible enough and intelligent enough to understand that my feelings come...if not last...towards the bottom of the pile in specific, spelled-out situations. My submissive will understand and not just pay lip service to the idea that "my way or the highway" means what it says and yet, means so much more but that it is just as much her responsibility for finding out what that "more" is as it is my responsibility to inform her. There is much more but NONE of that precludes my submissive being assertive to others when they do her wrong or attempt to or when she disagrees with me over something.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 12:20:20 PM)
quote: Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphine and other sensations? It could be-- or it could also be that it is an individual who recognizes authority beyond hirself, but who is both able and willing to be pro-active in finding the tools to make sure that the person whom xhe serves gets exactly what xhe wants and needs, when xhe wants and needs it, and knows hirself well enough to not get into messes or to do a good job of extracting herself from the inevitable mosh-pit of life when xhe gets tossed in tush-first. quote: Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? Absolutely, in fact, I'd say that most individuals who consider themselves 'submissive' are situationally submissive... in fact, there is another part of me that suspects that the greater majority of humanity are not consistently dominant -or- submissive, but respond to the situation and the other participants -in- the situation to determine their own place in the human hierarchy for that particular situation. For example, I am really not submissive in general, and will go to great lengths to control situations that I am in, but when I was in the monastary, having made that choice for that period of time -required- that I yield my authority, in that situation, to my mentor and the other leadership of the monastary. Even in our House, where I have been a Keeper for a while now, there was a stretch of time where I was at the bottom of the totem pole, and learning what I needed to know required that I keep my head down and my knee bent. I sucked at it, but I did it because it was required to get where I wanted to go. At the same time, my room-mate, who was, at one point, Matriarch of our Household, now answers to me. Admittedly, she is a free woman, and I exercise as little dominion over her as I possibly can, because both of us value personal freedom highly, but, if something came up and the matter came to draws, she would either have to back down or dissociate herself from the House. So I suspect that most people are more flexible, when pressed by necessity, than they give themselves credit for most of the time. quote: Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? Your thoughts? Absolutely. Every label that we stick on people carries the weight of our biases and perceptions about that -label- with it, and attaches those to anyone whom we plop the label on, whether or not our bias is part of their experience. Hence the reason there are so many disagreements about everything from "which label fits this person" to "how to do XYZ". Dame Calla

eyesopened -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 12:50:12 PM)
Assertive is not the opposite of submissive nor are they conflicting. Part of my duties as slave is to deal with things like ordering household repairs, taking the car to the mechanic, shopping, and the list goes on. It requires being being assertive, not passive. Submissive doesn't equal passive. It equals the yielding to the authority of another. I always yeild to authority, I don't know how to not yeild to authority. In my relationship my Master has the Authority. I yield to Him in everything, there is no thinking about it, I just do. In our relationship, my primary duty above all others is to create an atmosphere of comfort, ease, and joy for my Master and to make sure my Master's needs are my focus. He is a very dominant man, a leader, and not a little stubborn. In order for me to watch his back, take care of him, I need to be able to keep up with him and I could not do that as a passive mouse. While certainly there are people who are situationally assertive or situationally submissive or even situationally masochistic or situationally dominant, I don't see that as being unique to SMBD or D/s M/s or kink. It's just people, I don't think it's the term submissive that carries a laundry list of assumptions but rather the term assertive that is misunderstood. I am assertive. I am submissive. Master calls me slave. I feel less conflicted in this relationship than ever before in my life.

daddysliloneds -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 1:00:27 PM)
question for you... could it be that there are passive dominants? in my mind's eye, the clear-cut answer is yes... so in knowing that, and the fact that i'm an assertive submissive, i'm not having a problem interpretting it for exactly what it is because it REALLY can be that simple.

Missokyst -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 1:52:14 PM)
My thoughts on this is that when you assign a value judgement on behavior you are never going to look beyond your nose. Are submissives who are not submissive to everything the only valid criteria to being submissive? Is being submissive to someone who inspires it and no one else, less than being submissive? Do I hear an implied "True" in there? I am not assertive. I do however, get things done. I am not submissive to any tom dickhead or harriet who says they are dominant. I let their actions determine their place in my head, not what they claim their title to be. If a dominant is unsure of himself, it is very unlikely he will be my dominant no matter how much he beats his chest. Likewise I have met very softspoken, very thoughtful and polite men who are accustomed to having their way.. and I comply. Just as in anything, a title really only means something to you. I am not slave, dominant, sub, until I AM. Kyst

DesFIP -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 1:58:40 PM)
I'm submissive to one. But to have healthy boundaries, and without them you don't have healthy relationships, I am otherwise assertive. If you aren't assertive in getting your own needs met, then they won't be met, nor will you be in a relationship that is good for you if you aren't assertive in rejecting incompatibles and assertive in talking about what are your deal breakers and what are your must haves. Hell, I am with him on occasion. Odd as it may appear to the op, dominants are not mind readers. So if I don't make it clear to him that I'm getting hungry and/or tired, and he needs to include a break in the day's list of errands, he won't think of doing it. And he will have a very grouchy submissive on his hands.

beargonewild -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 2:51:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhostWhoWalks Some people identify themselves as "assertive submissives". At first glance, "assertive" and "submissive" appear to be mutually exclusive. Are those people who identify themselves as "assertive submissives" just what they say they are? Or something else? That that one step further and understand that "assertive" can also apply to a person's overall personality. It is not solely dependent upon being submissive or dominant. Much akin the same way some people are passive in nature and others are aggressive in nature. Plain and simple a person who identifies as an assertive submissive generally means they do not submit willy nilly to any person who displays dominant traits. quote: Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphin and other sensations? Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? It is simply as you said....people are complex, emotionally, spiritually and mentally. quote: Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? Your thoughts? For each of us, we define submissive on how we understand ourselves. It is only an assumption when another inaccurately presumes to know the whys and wherefores of how a submissive should be; supposed to be or should be.

TopChuck -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 2:55:00 PM)
Dominant submissives? Submissive Dominants? Sure, it's called "Vanilla". Where has the world of D/s gone? The intrusion of BDSM into the world of D/s, probably by virtue of the widespread availability of BDSM, and the idea that D/s is part of BDSM, rather than the reality that BDSM is only a very small part of D/s, is probably the answer to why there is no D/s community anymore. The only subculture left is a community of kink. The power exchange has been torn into shreds by the insistence that there is no definition of "power exchange", other than that it means the existence of power; maybe. A submissive is a person who entrusts control to another. We all play that role at times in our daily lives, just as submissives aren't doormats and can exercise either role. But in D/s, as I remember it from when the D/s community existed, the submissive was a person who did that, because the most comfortable state of mind was in fulfilling that role, with a Dominant, who constantly proved trustworthy of accepting submission. And, the Dominant's most comfortable state of mind is in fulfilling the role of Dom/me. Alas, the good old days!!

DesFIP -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 3:26:54 PM)
Oh yeah, and not only am I an assertive submissive, I have no liking for pain play at all. No endorphin rush, no masochism, no thanks. Put that in your pigeon holes.

EmelineRose -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 3:30:15 PM)
It's complicated! Maybe it is best to think of submissive as being not a noun but a verb. Most of the submissives and slaves I have known tend to have been "submissive" in the D/s sense to only a very small number of Dominants, often only one. Bear in mind a lot of what you see in public is just role play. These days I think it is wise for anyone, maybe even especially certain types who identify as submissives, to learn how to be politely assertive, and trust me lots of submissives are VERY assertive! Of course everything is about context too. The insecure types of Dominant tend to be spooked and frightened by assertive, spirited submissives, but it's been my experience the strongest types of Dominants often prefer them.

leadership527 -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 3:30:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Oh yeah, and not only am I an assertive submissive, I have no liking for pain play at all. No endorphin rush, no masochism, no thanks. Put that in your pigeon holes. Deep down Des, I always suspected that you weren't twue. chuckles

SimplyMichael -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 3:34:48 PM)
Could it be that they are just waiting for someone who's dominance makes their cunts wet, their knees weak, and fills their minds with twisted images of dark things they have always refused but suddenly crave? One man's willful bitch is another man's depraved and faithful slave. YMMV

Focus50 -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 4:04:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GhostWhoWalks Some people identify themselves as "assertive submissives". At first glance, "assertive" and "submissive" appear to be mutually exclusive. Are those people who identify themselves as "assertive submissives" just what they say they are? Or something else? In general, people are NOT simple. Period. Could it be, that "assertive submissives" are in fact masochists, and not particularly submissive? People who just want those yummy endorphine and other sensations? Could it be, that there is something called a "situational submissive", who is only submissive in specific situations and with specific people? Does the term, "submissive" carry with it a whole laundry list of assumptions that may or may not be true? Your thoughts? Compared to passive, I much prefer an assertive submissive. The most boring D/s relationships I was was ever in were with passive submissives - never again. When I ask for the girl's opinion of something, I really don't wanna hear "whatever you think/want etc."!! Nor do I want her sitting around like a quiet little mouse waiting for direction or some attention. Assertive (to me) means she can function freely and ably when I'm preoccupied, that she has her own spirit and nature that she's willing to express, including humour and even a touch of playful mischief. And when I do pull the reins, I really don't want her going into a deep shell of admonishment where she's even wary of breathing! Assertive (or passive) in a submissive context reflects general confidence and nature and has nothing to do with grappling for relationship control, IMO. Focus.

kit954 -> RE: "Assertive Submissives"??? (6/26/2009 4:15:06 PM)
Speaking as an assertive submissive, assertiveness is something I've learned overtime. It's a necessity and healthy way to be to look out for your own interests and doesn't have much to do with my sexual preferences. Maybe adds an interesting dynamic to any relationship and a barrier to some but for me a healthy necessity and a way to relate in work/life everyday kind of stuff while secretly looking for one guy who does see me truely as an equal partner where its safe to let my guard down so to speak.

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