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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 6:40:35 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You fell for the PR stunt too, huh  ?


You going to now say that each and every experience by our service men and women who have been there is all a PR stunt as well?


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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 6:46:09 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		SB4U,
Actually, Hussein was complying with the UN inspectors, and both he and Blix were lobbying for more time for them to complete the job. But Bush and his minions had to move fast... any moment, the lie could have been exposed about the supposed yellowcake from Niger, and support for the invasion would have ebbed.

I'm willing to bet that in the next ten to twenty years, we'll see some declassified evidence come out about Saddam's back channel communications with the US, asking why the hell the GOP had turned on him, after supporting him for all those years. He had to have needed to keep the lie of having WMD alive, in order to deter the Iranians from knocking at his back door.

Loki,
We allow other bananna republic leaders to torture and kill their people without saying so much as "boo" to them. (Currently there's, I believe, 23 other countries which have made various human right's orgs lists on being as brutal, if not more so, than Saddam was. Why aren't we invading them? Oh, yeah... no oil, and they aren't stratigically placed in the middle of an area of the world we wish to control.

There's no doubt in my mind that Saddam was a monster. The world is a better place without him. But we paid a HUGE fucking cost in finding him and killing him. Way more than the thuggish prick was worth. Now we have had a prolonged occupation, and a country that could still decend into chaos. But... we invaded on a lie. It was a "Pre-emptive War" (a term Bush coined) Nearly a trillion dollars have been spent, which we still owe to China. 4,371 US dead. Possibly as many a half a million civillians also dead. 2.3 million Iraqi civilians homless refugees, 31,000+ wounded on the American side alone.

Yeah, George. "Mission Fuckin' Accomplished" alright.

(in reply to xiam)
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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 6:52:41 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

We had no rights under international law. Blair and Bush gave the wmds and links with terrorists as reasons for war.


They didn't give the numerous UN resolution and Gulf War treaty violations as a reason at all?  Are you kidding me?  You think the only reason they gave was because of WMDs and terrorists?  Seriously, are you kidding?  Were you not paying attention?  You never heard either mention the treaty and UN resolution violations, ever? 


Doesn't matter. None of those were sufficient grounds for launching an invasion, and Cheney knew it. Which was precisely why he and Bush made up the bullshit about the terrorist links and the WMD.


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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 6:53:06 PM   
MarsBonfire


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Joined: 3/6/2005
Status: offline 		Oh, just a tiny little observation, folks:

The Iraqis pulling down a statue of Saddam isn't really "weloming us as liberators." All it says is that they hated him with a passion. If I had seen them actually greeting the troops, showering them with flowers, and passing them bottles of hooch, and dancing in the streets... then maybe I'd believe it...

But, spitting on your fallen enemy doesn't mean you actually care for the guy who knifed him.

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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 7:08:29 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire
Loki,
We allowed other bananna republic leaders to torture and kill their people without saying so much as "boo" to them.....



There, I fixed you comment. The oil hunt and all the other stuff you mentioned was pre-2009.

But see, that's the great thing about reducing our foreign oil dependence that the new administration is pushing. If we don't care about othe country's oil, then we can let them all collapse for all we care, right? No one will blame us for that, will they?

Oh wait.....yes they will. I almost forgot the images I saw plastered all over the media from Africa saying the genocide there was our fault because we did *not* intervene.

If we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. I say fuck it. Let's "don't." Then at least we don't spend money we don't have saving someone else's ass when they will turn around and demand we leave their country anyway. Fuck 'em all.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 8:40:42 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

In case you were asleep during the first days of the war, we were greeted as liberators. It wasn't until the looting started and the outside agitators moved in that the celebration was suppressed. But why let facts get in the way of a typically snarky post.


Interesting that you speak of facts yet don't document any, feel free to post those sources that show we were greeted as "liberators".

I always thought "liberators" were greeted with flowers and wine, not AK-47 fire and IED's.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 8:51:45 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

When that statue of Saddam in the middle of Bahgdad was pulled down I would say everyone was pretty happy. They certainly weren't asking out troops to leave... 



Toppling the statue of Saddam Hussein - SourceWatch

Toppling the statue of Saddam Hussein was a staged event, by U.S. soldiers, for the media. A Reuters long-shot of Firdos Square where the statue was located (see below) shows that the Square was nearly empty when Saddam was torn down.

The Square was sealed off by the U.S. military.

The 200 people milling about were U.S. Marines, international press and Iraqis. However, the media portrayed it as an event of the Iraqi people.


Military Admits Statue Toppling was a Psyops Stunt

On Point, a US army report on lessons learned from the war, notes that it was a Marine colonel, not Iraqi civilians, who decided to topple the statue. "We moved our [tactical PSYOP team] TPT vehicle forward and started to run around seeing what they needed us to do to facilitate their mission," states a U.S. military officer involved in the operation. "There was a large media circus at this location (I guess the Palestine Hotel was a media center at the time), almost as many reporters as there were Iraqis, as the hotel was right adjacent to the Al-Firdos Square.

The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down."

The pyschological team used loudspeakers to encourage Iraqi civilians to assist, packed the scene with Iraqi children, and stepped in to readjust the props when one of the soldiers draped an American flag over the statue.

"God bless them, but we were thinking from PSYOP school that this was just bad news," the officer reported. "We didn't want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, 'No, we want an Iraqi flag!' So I said 'No problem, somebody get me an Iraqi flag.' "

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 9:12:22 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
"Their presence has brought nothing good. It is long past the time for the Americans to leave," said Ali, who draped himself in an Iraqi flag as he danced with friends prior to Iraqi security forces taking control Tuesday.


Yeah. Personally I think we should have just let saddam continue to abuse and torture people, continue killing mass amounts of people who disagreed with him, and just generally ignored the country. Kinda like how we should ignore what's going on in iran. So they want to kill a bunch of protesters....big deal. Let them sort out their own mess. If the ruling power retains power, the protesters didn't fight hard enough. If they lose power, then things will change.

The point being that if a dictator wants to abuse his own country or drive it straight into the ground.....so be it. Not our problem.



So which do we invade next to correct all the injustice in the world?

Should it be Iran or North Korea?

And so many more possibilities after we set those countries straight.

Doin' right just has no end until we eradicate all them evildoers.

(in reply to Loki45)
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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 10:12:32 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

In case you were asleep during the first days of the war, we were greeted as liberators. It wasn't until the looting started and the outside agitators moved in that the celebration was suppressed. But why let facts get in the way of a typically snarky post.

Wrong. The celebration over Saddam's demise was cut short by the CPA (coalition provisional auth.) Once the Baathists were 'purged' police, bureaucrats and teachers fired and Abu Garib was installed...Iraqis went in understanding and came out hating our guts.

We thus created a political vacuum into which the neighborhood filled with terrorists who easily recruited FRE's as so-called insurgants.

To the extent that there is bloodshed after we leave the cities...blame it on this. Bush and the neocons who wanted this to last forever...more profits.

Obama has accommodated them in timing but better damn well get out on schedule.

Oh and BTW I don't believe a single word Cheney has to say.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/30/2009 10:20:36 PM >

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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 10:32:37 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
So which do we invade next to correct all the injustice in the world?

Should it be Iran or North Korea?

And so many more possibilities after we set those countries straight.

Doin' right just has no end until we eradicate all them evildoers.


If you'd read my post at all, you'd see I don't advocate invading anyone. Fuck 'em. Let them kill themselves. Why should we care? I don't. I say we pull back everything that represents "America" to those overseas, especially our MONEY that we keep sending in aid to the countries who cry for our support, yet bash us in the media. We pull it all back, shore up our own borders and then wait. And the first country to look cross-eyed at us....we wipe off the map.

The world sys we're bullies....I say we show them the REAL meaning of the word.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 6/30/2009 10:33:46 PM >

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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Cheney was right after all - 6/30/2009 11:37:25 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

The world sys we're bullies....I say we show them the REAL meaning of the word.


....that'll prove them wrong.....

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 12:26:26 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

The world sys we're bullies....I say we show them the REAL meaning of the word.


....that'll prove them wrong.....


Who said anything about proving them wrong? Or caring what they thought in the first place? They hate us no matter what we do. Hell, the 'terrorists' hate us just for existing. So fuck 'em.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 1:47:05 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

We had no rights under international law. Blair and Bush gave the wmds and links with terrorists as reasons for war.


They didn't give the numerous UN resolution and Gulf War treaty violations as a reason at all?  Are you kidding me?  You think the only reason they gave was because of WMDs and terrorists?  Seriously, are you kidding?  Were you not paying attention?  You never heard either mention the treaty and UN resolution violations, ever? 


Read about resolution 1441, and the fact The US and UK agreed this didnt include a trigger for war, without going back to the security council. Then get back to me and confirm I wasnt paying attention.


(in reply to slaveboyforyou)
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RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 1:49:06 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You fell for the PR stunt too, huh  ?


You going to now say that each and every experience by our service men and women who have been there is all a PR stunt as well?



So toppling the statue wasnt a PR stunt then ? I didnt see Kittin suggesting anything other than that.

(in reply to Loki45)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 2:10:22 AM   
Loki45


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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
So toppling the statue wasnt a PR stunt then ? I didnt see Kittin suggesting anything other than that.


Nor did I suggest it wasn't. But since she likes to jump on the PR stunt bandwagon as an example of how we were not welcomed there (not that it matters that it was a PR stunt) I wanted to ask if she was going to discount the majority of the experiences had by the service men and women who came back reporting on the smiling faces they'd seen, the schools they'd built, etc.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 8:17:55 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

The world sys we're bullies....I say we show them the REAL meaning of the word.


....that'll prove them wrong.....


Who said anything about proving them wrong? Or caring what they thought in the first place? They hate us no matter what we do. Hell, the 'terrorists' hate us just for existing. So fuck 'em.



...cultural paranoia is a self fulfilling prophecy.

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RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 8:29:54 AM   
mastrcmmdr


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Status: offline 		Funny that there isnt a single MSM report that confirms that the toppling was staged.

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RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 8:38:03 AM   
MarsBonfire


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Status: offline 		Loki,

Somehow, I think that if the US were to magically have the ability to be 100% foreign oil independant, the middle East would still not starve. China is a growing market for them, and so is the rest of the world. To use a drug term, we're being enablers for their decades long wars with each other. We keep pumping money and materiel into their feuds, and we're happy to do so. (Hey, we gotta keep those defense contractors happy and employed!) We make the arms sales, and very few Americans get killed in the process. (Just so long as the oil keeps flowing to the US.) But now all that wealth and high explosives is trickling back to us in the form of terrorisim.


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RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 8:57:31 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Hunk  throw a fast pitch-   past the screen flies a  shoe

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Cheney was right after all - 7/1/2009 10:40:27 AM   
Loki45


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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Loki,

Somehow, I think that if the US were to magically have the ability to be 100% foreign oil independant, the middle East would still not starve. China is a growing market for them, and so is the rest of the world. To use a drug term, we're being enablers for their decades long wars with each other. We keep pumping money and materiel into their feuds, and we're happy to do so. (Hey, we gotta keep those defense contractors happy and employed!) We make the arms sales, and very few Americans get killed in the process. (Just so long as the oil keeps flowing to the US.) But now all that wealth and high explosives is trickling back to us in the form of terrorisim.




I said nothing about the middle east starving. But if we were not reliant on their oil, then I wouldn't have to head people in this country bitch anymore about us being in a war for oil, because we wouldn't need it.


_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Profile   Post #: 40
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