RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/4/2009 11:43:39 AM)

quote:

Have you ever gotten the feeling that your submissive has no idea what they are really asking for?  Some examples might be:

I want to be owned.
I want to wear your collar.
Break me please.


Actually, this is usually the case. Almost always.

Comes down to deciding if she's worth the trouble, then starting to inch her from fantasy to reality.

And frankly, odds are she'll decide it's just not feeling right and go back to waiting for her fantasy master--over and over.

Sad, really. The perfect nothing.

But then, some do understand and/or learn. I wish more would. I like happy endings.




CaringandReal -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/4/2009 4:23:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Have you ever gotten the feeling that your submissive has no idea what they are really asking for?  Some examples might be:

I want to be owned.
I want to wear your collar.
Break me please.


Actually, this is usually the case. Almost always.

Comes down to deciding if she's worth the trouble, then starting to inch her from fantasy to reality.

And frankly, odds are she'll decide it's just not feeling right and go back to waiting for her fantasy master--over and over.

Sad, really. The perfect nothing.

But then, some do understand and/or learn. I wish more would. I like happy endings.





You never deal with submissives who have been owned? Worn a collar? Been broken? Know exactly what those terms mean? There are a lot of experienced submissives. I would think dealing with them would save you considerable frustration rather than choosing "perfect nothings" over and over again.

(combining two responses in one post in order to save the poor pixel trees)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
On the breaking thing, that sounds like more of an internet-fueled fantasy thing, or perhaps they mean breaking in the sense of training, like a horse? Perhaps they want to be brought down to the very basic elements of who they are, and be rebuilt in the way their partner wants, much as boot camp is intended to do? I don't *think* they literally mean broken bones.


Well, the asking to be broken thing is a little bit better than the asking to be barbecued and eaten thing...it leaves you with more options anyway.

Breaking or being broken can be dangerous terms, as they mean very different things to different people. If someone just says "I want to break" or "I want to be broken," it helps clarify things for both people to ask for details about what they want to break or have broken and how they expect to feel while it is happening and afterwards. Will breaking, it seems to me, is a very different sort of beast than spirit breaking. I see new subs sometimes ask to have their spirits broken, and I don't think, in those situations, they often know what they are asking for. It is hard to believe that anybody who wasn't extremely self-destructive would ask for that if they knew what it entailed. I once knew a submissive that self-destructive and I also once was that way myself and wanted the same thing (for the same reason as her, as it turned out). She got what she asked for. I was lucky: I didn't.



Musicmystery -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 8:51:51 AM)

quote:

You never deal with submissives who have been owned? Worn a collar? Been broken? Know exactly what those terms mean? There are a lot of experienced submissives. I would think dealing with them would save you considerable frustration rather than choosing "perfect nothings" over and over again.


Experienced submissives tend to (1) already be owned, (2) live in the city (with no need to look outside), or (3) be unowned again for good reason, and so amount to taking on another man's problem. Doable--different people have different dynamics between them, so it can certainly work out better. Building a foundation, though, rather than first tearing down an old structure, is often more effective.

Incidentally, the "perfect nothing" refers not to the girls, but to what they often "attain" in their quest for Fantasyland. As David Henry Hwang has Rene Gallimard point out in "M Butterfly" (paraphrasing), "I've tasted both reality and fantasy. I prefer fantasy."

I, however, prefer girls in reality.



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 9:13:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

You never deal with submissives who have been owned? Worn a collar? Been broken? Know exactly what those terms mean? There are a lot of experienced submissives. I would think dealing with them would save you considerable frustration rather than choosing "perfect nothings" over and over again.


Experienced submissives tend to (1) already be owned, (2) live in the city (with no need to look outside), or (3) be unowned again for good reason, and so amount to taking on another man's problem. Doable--different people have different dynamics between them, so it can certainly work out better. Building a foundation, though, rather than first tearing down an old structure, is often more effective.

Incidentally, the "perfect nothing" refers not to the girls, but to what they often "attain" in their quest for Fantasyland. As David Henry Hwang has Rene Gallimard point out in "M Butterfly" (paraphrasing), "I've tasted both reality and fantasy. I prefer fantasy."

I, however, prefer girls in reality.



Not to be nasty, Musicmystery, because I do respect you.  However, the same could be said vice-versa... the man is no longer a 'Master', again, for good reason.    So a potential submissive is taking on a man who was once, another girl's problem.    Just to be fair...

~sgs



Musicmystery -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 9:48:12 AM)

You see, though, this is the point.

People are searching for what they don't want, and are determined to find it so they can not want it.

Humans. An odd species.

Me? I need a country girl. The princesses will never be happy here. But whoever and whatever scenario, life takes work, and relationships of any stripe take choice and commitment, not turn-key perfection. Men or women who continually snub all non-ideal possibilities will find at the end they passed by every growth opportunity they encountered.

Time takes time. Instant Master/slave Formula is snake oil. And deciding why it's someone's fault doesn't move things along. People looking for perfection should seriously ask themselves if they themselves are in fact perfect and thus deserving of that perfect partner.






leadership527 -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 10:55:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Time takes time. Instant Master/slave Formula is snake oil. And deciding why it's someone's fault doesn't move things along.

Amen!



subtee -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 1:50:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

You never deal with submissives who have been owned? Worn a collar? Been broken? Know exactly what those terms mean? There are a lot of experienced submissives. I would think dealing with them would save you considerable frustration rather than choosing "perfect nothings" over and over again.


Experienced submissives tend to (1) already be owned, (2) live in the city (with no need to look outside), or (3) be unowned again for good reason, and so amount to taking on another man's problem. Doable--different people have different dynamics between them, so it can certainly work out better. Building a foundation, though, rather than first tearing down an old structure, is often more effective.

Incidentally, the "perfect nothing" refers not to the girls, but to what they often "attain" in their quest for Fantasyland. As David Henry Hwang has Rene Gallimard point out in "M Butterfly" (paraphrasing), "I've tasted both reality and fantasy. I prefer fantasy."

I, however, prefer girls in reality.



It seems to me there may be little regard for or value seen in submissives with experience. Just as Doms without experience are discounted, subs with experience are as well. But then, just look at the multitude of profiles and journal entries bemoaning fake and wanna-be subs...



Musicmystery -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 2:03:21 PM)

Hi subtee,

I don't know about the profiles and journal entries--I haven't surveyed the men's profiles, and I don't think loading up on negative disclaimers is productive (the girl's profiles are full of these, btw). I'm not so sure subs with experience are so readily discounted as you believe either. I do think that they often sabotage themselves while looking outside themselves for the problem. And sure, no doubt men do that too.

Whenever there's some attraction and connection, I'm ready to give things a chance.




subtee -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 2:14:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Hi subtee,

I don't know about the profiles and journal entries--I haven't surveyed the men's profiles, and I don't think loading up on negative disclaimers is productive (the girl's profiles are full of these, btw). I'm not so sure subs with experience are so readily discounted as you believe either. I do think that they often sabotage themselves while looking outside themselves for the problem. And sure, no doubt men do that too.

Whenever there's some attraction and connection, I'm ready to give things a chance.


Yes, I agree there is plenty of blame to be found, other than with ourselves, because it's easier and more comfortable to look without, rather than within. It's not attractive. However, you wrote  "Building a foundation, though, rather than first tearing down an old structure, is often more effective." I'm just wondering if tearing down an old structure is necessarily necessary, because a sub has experience.

It seems to me the sabotage extends not just to affect ourselves, but to both parties when one makes claims of what they want/need, without having a clue as to what that means...
[edit for typo...I'm Sunday tired :)]



Musicmystery -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 3:04:52 PM)

Hi subtee,

I also wrote, in that same paragraph:

quote:

Experienced submissives tend to (1) already be owned, (2) live in the city (with no need to look outside), or (3) be unowned again for good reason, and so amount to taking on another man's problem. Doable--different people have different dynamics between them, so it can certainly work out better.

Everyone carries expectations and baggage colored by the past. Dealing with that seems obvious to me. It exists. Certainly, with the effort comes the potential for better results. And sometimes, granted, sometimes the new pairing is simply a better match, or the parties come to it with lessons learned and wiser approaches.





subtee -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 3:13:21 PM)

Yes, you did. I didn't mean to have picked it apart. I was speaking to the value seemingly placed on the "tabula rasa" (not just here).  Very, very generally speaking, of course. 



lovingpet -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/5/2009 5:45:01 PM)

Thanks to everyone for all the wonderful discussion. I think really that is what all this comes down to is simple expectations. When they do not meet the way expected any number of outcomes are possible. I went into this thread with the idea that mismatched expectations were automatically a recipe for disaster. From a lack of fulfillment of one or even both parties to actual criminal liability, I just assumed a lot of negative senarios. The fact is plain as day, however, that in my own experience it has not gone that way. Mismatched expectations were a challenge for one or both to step up to the plate. They were a chance to grow and expand our horizons.

I guess it comes down to how these things are handled, both upfront and as things change or come to light within a relationship. There is wisdom in asking what things like those listed in the OP mean to each other before asking or offering them. There is also some real pragmatism in knowing those concepts, along with those that underpin them, will change and evolve over the course of a lifetime. For example, what provision means now, will not be the same as what it means should the provider or the one provided for become disabled. Everything changes at that point. Accepting the ebb and flow of life and being able to adapt appropriately is key as well.

Thanks once again for the discussion and I will look forward to further contributions.

lovingpet



misterraymond -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/6/2009 6:25:31 AM)

The Question

Right or wrong in your assessment? 

Never in my life experience and practice.

You must educate and research your sub, before you train her, read my journal if my ways are of interest.



SmokeSerpent -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/6/2009 11:33:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
It seems to me there may be little regard for or value seen in submissives with experience. Just as Doms without experience are discounted, subs with experience are as well. But then, just look at the multitude of profiles and journal entries bemoaning fake and wanna-be subs...


I think that a lot of these sorts of Doms are harboring a bit of insecurity about being compared to a sub's previous Dom or Dom's, as well as prejudicial feeling that if things didn't work out between them, there must be something wrong with the sub.

Also, for someone who takes a shallow view of things, there is a bit more excitement in taking someone somewhere for the first time. The fallacies built in to that is that when someone's never done something before, they might not be sure where their limits lie, and here come the accusations of being fake or a wanna-be, and you can only take someone somewhere for the first time once, "virginity" is not a wise thing to focus so much on as a prerequisite.

Having been in relationships with both and experienced and inexperienced subs, I'd say neither is better than the other. Just because someone hasn't done something before doesn't mean they can't commit to it and do their best, and just because someone's had experiences, it doesn't mean they've learned from them.



justme1980 -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/6/2009 10:51:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

While I am waiting for the fortitude to attend to another one of my threads, I had a little spark.  Have you ever gotten the feeling that your submissive has no idea what they are really asking for?  Some examples might be:

I want to be owned.
I want to wear your collar.
Break me please.

What was your basis for thinking that they didn't really understand what the request entailed?  How did you handle it?  Did you turn out to be right or wrong in your assessment?  What was the outcome?

lovingpet








well since is is someones submissive to q1 and q2 she she does or should know. q3 is open for interpetation and it is just as easy to assume that the Dom dosn't either



lovingpet -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/7/2009 6:48:11 PM)

Sure. This could be looked at from the flipped side of the coin, but I guess my reason for asking it from this perspective is that the dominant party is going to set the pace and will be the one enacting these things or not. The submissive can have whatever preconceptions or utter lack of knowledge and it really isn't going to matter because the dominant is going to decide how the storybook goes. The dominant has a set of expectations that either set well with the submissive party or not. If they are never brought to light when they arise like this, how can the submissive make an even remotely imformed decision? I have run into a few dominants that preyed on this and, so, never disclosed their intent. Whether it be a simple lack of overall understanding, not understanding the specific bent of the dominant, or irrational emotions clouding judgement, it seems only responsible to correct things before moving forward.

I see a lot of this cart before the horse issue come up on these boards. People did not clarify things prior and then were bewildered by where things ended up. More than a few times, it is clear that the submissive is surprised by what they signed up for despite claiming that full discussion was had ahead of time. In many cases, the things being demanded of them based on the fact that they were "owned", "collared", or being "broken" actually appeared, on their face anyway, to be abusive and inappropriate. I just wonder if it was a matter of being told repeatedly that this is how it is going to be and simply not listening and taking seriously what the dominant was saying. My abuse is another's hot kink. The problem comes in when I think someone's hot kink is abuse and believe they can't possibly be serious. In that case, what is a dominant to do? It has already been stated clearly. How do you bring the submissive to reality in these matters? What do you do in the meantime? Can things even move forward? Those are only a few questions that come to mind.

lovingpet



bamabbwsub -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/7/2009 7:06:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

This is life, not law school



[8|] Do you EVER have any constructive comments to make in these threads? All of the comments I've ever seen from you have been condescending and bitter. And although you certainly can exercise your right to post whatever you wish, I have to wonder why you even bother, when you have nothing to contribute but negativity and criticism.

The OP is asking a valid question and is soliciting opinions, not asking for judgment and smart-ass comments. It would be interesting to see how many of the 1266 posts you have (currently) actually contribute ANYTHING of meaning to someone's post.

Sorry for the hijacked thread, lovingpet and others...I just get so sick of the sour grapes that this guy spews. [:'(]


And now, back to your regularly-scheduled program...



RealGirl4One -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/10/2009 10:29:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

If a submissive does not know what to expect from what they ask for except some conception of it in their own mind, can they really consent? If a dominant moves forward knowing the submissive does begin to have the slightest idea what might be expected, is it a breach of trust?


This is life, not law school



It may not be, but it can quickly turn into a matter for lawyers and judges to sort out if one is not careful.

lovingpet

Too true but many do not take that into account as they view themselves as superior beings above all the mundane riffraff sort of thing the rest of us must deal with.



Leonidas -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/11/2009 8:55:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I want to be owned.
I want to wear your collar.
Break me please.



In 20 years of owning slaves I'd say that every single one of them (with the exception of those who had lived as slaves before) knew what they were asking for when they said that.  They were thinking about some fantasy that they had, or some erotica that they had read that made them go all wet between their thighs and asking that I make that fantasy or fictional story real for them.

What they had less idea about was what I had in mind when I agreed to take them, despite my best efforts to educate them about that.  For some of them, what I was saying matched closely what they had been fantasizing about.  For others, they figured they'd alter the situation to their liking, at least somewhat, once they were collared.

The trouble with fantasies is that they are episodic by their very nature.  You fantasize about a certain scenario or situation that usually has a duration of a few seconds to a few minutes.  It is very difficult to fantasize about what a whole day would be like, much less what it's going to be like to live as a collared slave long term.  That's something that a slave learns as they go.  No way around it.



lovingpet -> RE: Do You Have Any Idea What You Are Asking? (7/11/2009 9:04:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RealGirl4One


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

If a submissive does not know what to expect from what they ask for except some conception of it in their own mind, can they really consent? If a dominant moves forward knowing the submissive does begin to have the slightest idea what might be expected, is it a breach of trust?


This is life, not law school



It may not be, but it can quickly turn into a matter for lawyers and judges to sort out if one is not careful.

lovingpet

Too true but many do not take that into account as they view themselves as superior beings above all the mundane riffraff sort of thing the rest of us must deal with.


Yes, and it is a foolish stance to take. I prefer to avoid being so shortsighted for my own good.

lovingpet



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