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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 6:15:57 PM

Leonidas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

"Uh why slave, I am dom, hear me roar!"
"Your a great guy but that isn't how you evoke my submission, respect my limits today and I might let you push them tomorrow"
"Cool! Thanks for educating me! That was a fun scene, get together next weekend?"
"Sure, I think you are going to be a great partner, I look forward to next weekend"
And THAT is why I object to demonizing the dominants...

Yep. Setting and enforcing structure and parameters is important if you expect someone to serve you well. I've always thought so.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 6:18:31 PM

daintydimples

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Every great Dominant I have ever known has had at least one really great sub who took the time and had the patience to teach him alot when he was young a/o inexperienced.

Just saying.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 6:29:39 PM

CatdeMedici

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We as human beings, can only survive if we continue to learn from each other, no matter the label, the persuasion, the culture, the orientation--it is the fool who refuses to do so.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 7:46:53 PM

Mistressbinature

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The incessant chest thumping and demonizing "wannabee" doms is a very bad concept. Especially while coddling submissives that they have no responsibility in making bad relationship choices.

It destroys our community!

Why?
Because new submissives (who are just as clueless) will now turn on any dom who makes a mistake and label him an asshole. Neither learn nor grow through the experience.
The demonizing is presented in a way that paints making mistakes as WRONG and only one side can do those wrongs, the dominant side. Imagine a world where submissives are empowered BUT INSTEAD OF SEEING THE MISTAKES OF A DOMINANT AS SIGNS OF AN ASSHOLE TOOK THEM AS OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW WITH AND OR EDUCATE THEIR PARTNER?
THEN we would have something that goes like this
"dude, what are you doing, that is a hard limit of mine, stop!"

"Uh why slave, I am dom, hear me roar!"
"Your a great guy but that isn't how you evoke my submission, respect my limits today and I might let you push them tomorrow"
"Cool! Thanks for educating me! That was a fun scene, get together next weekend?"
"Sure, I think you are going to be a great partner, I look forward to next weekend"
And THAT is why I object to demonizing the dominants...

Well as for the OP, the example he portayed was not just a mistake, it was sheer stupidity
which is different then say accidently hitting the thigh instead of the butt of the submissive

Furthermore, if either the Dom or sub lack the knowledge or maturity level required when partaking in such activities, they have no business being involved in it

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 8:13:04 PM

Racquelle

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"Demonizing a Dom" is different from criticizing an action. Very few people deserve to be demonized. Often people deserve to be redirected, pleasantly. Sadly, only some of those people can actually handle the criticism gracefully. The nature of sexual dominance is such that it can attract people who wish nothing else than to do harm and be assholes. (Just as sexual submission can attract those who wish to abdicate the responsibility of thinking.) Yes, newbs do need to be made aware of the possibility - and that, to me, is part of helping THEM learn to take responsibility for choosing wisely and communicating openly with potential partners.

Most of the real demonizing I see comes in the on-line variety. Who can say how that relates to reality though. From a female's point of view, I get put upon by asshole mdoms quite frequently on-line, less so in public play, but often enough. And I am not referring to men of constrained-ego and maturity who can accept an objection with some sense of aplomb. Those men, those people, do exist - many of them. I am about 50 times less likely to have such negative interactions with fdoms, but it happens.

I could say more, but my asshole sub is demanding that we arrange to have food. What a dick.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/15/2009 8:16:39 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

So true. Poor babies get the "frenzy" and all sense is lost

Sounds like a disease: "Doc, ya gotta help me - I got The Frenzy!!"

I saw the thread referred to. And I understood the point he was making in it (about the big helpful poly man aiding all the lost new submissive girls).

I think the point of this thread is, rather than pointing out a domly mistake as being the end of the world, why not grow together from it?

I'll take it a step further and say, if you can't grow from it, why not accept what you learned from it and move forward on a positive note?

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 2:27:17 AM

eyesopened

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The incessant chest thumping and demonizing "wannabee" doms is a very bad concept. Especially while coddling submissives that they have no responsibility in making bad relationship choices.

It destroys our community!

Why?
Because new submissives (who are just as clueless) will now turn on any dom who makes a mistake and label him an asshole. Neither learn nor grow through the experience.
The demonizing is presented in a way that paints making mistakes as WRONG and only one side can do those wrongs, the dominant side. Imagine a world where submissives are empowered BUT INSTEAD OF SEEING THE MISTAKES OF A DOMINANT AS SIGNS OF AN ASSHOLE TOOK THEM AS OPPORTUNITIES TO GROW WITH AND OR EDUCATE THEIR PARTNER?
THEN we would have something that goes like this
"dude, what are you doing, that is a hard limit of mine, stop!"

"Uh why slave, I am dom, hear me roar!"
"Your a great guy but that isn't how you evoke my submission, respect my limits today and I might let you push them tomorrow"
"Cool! Thanks for educating me! That was a fun scene, get together next weekend?"
"Sure, I think you are going to be a great partner, I look forward to next weekend"
And THAT is why I object to demonizing the dominants...

My first question is: What "community"?

I agree with you completely. I am weary of the threads of Gee it was my birthday and Master gave me a carrot cake when he knows I hate carrots and I've told him a hundred times I love chocolate. Did he buy the carrot cake to punish me? What should I do? And 99% of the replies are to dump the jerk, you aren't compatible, if he didn't listen to you about your cake preference how can you trust him to cane you, what an asshole...yadda yadda yadda...

So for the newbies, the message is that if a D-type doesn't do exactly what you want him to, he must be an asshole and you must dump him immediately. Rarely do we see practical advice. Yes, I know, we don't know all the ins and outs of any particular dynamic etc.

I also understand completely about the mixed messages sent by those whose personal agenda is masked by "safety" instructions.

I recently received an email from someone local who was saying that my Master and I should attend a local dungeon because "a good Dominant must always be learning." So the implication was that because the email guy hadn't seen us at the dungeon, my Master isn't learning and isn't a good Dominant. Pressed further by me as to whether the local "community" offered workshops or demonstrations, email guy declined to respond. Hmmmm...

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 2:33:25 AM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whenready

If it looks like an asshole, smells like an asshole, feels like an asshole, it probably is an asshole...

And yeah, sometimes I can be an asshole too... and so can you (all of us). The trick is how often - and how you deal with it.

what does this have to do with the original post?

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 5:15:10 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

Every great Dominant I have ever known has had at least one really great sub who took the time and had the patience to teach him alot when he was young a/o inexperienced.

Just saying.

And the majority of great dominants that I've known well taught themselves when they were inexperienced (the ones who've described their childhoods to me strike me as never having been what we generally consider "young," so I'll dispense with that adjective). Shrug. We all have different experiences and encounters.

But when I hear, "the sub does not have less responsibility toward a relationship... and the dom does not have more," as I did earlier in this thread, I start to wonder just how exactly is such a relationship different from a vanilla one? My perspective and experience is purely master/slave, so I suppose milages will vary significantly in this situation but one of the things I prize most about the sorts of relationships I seek is the blessed abdication of responsibility, which like any other ordinary person I deal with more or less compently on my own, but unlike many, I nonetheless hate. Of course I give up a lot more than responsibility in such a situation, but everything, and perhaps especially one's own heaven-on-earth, has a price. The primary resposibility a submissive (or maybe I just mean a slave) bears in this sort of situation is acknowledging the price and paying it gladly.

I have never, in any context, bdsm or non-bdsm, understood the concept of wanting or demanding power without being willing to assume the greater responsibility that comes with weilding such power. If anybody deserves to be demonized, I think it is those people, who strike me as selfish, lazy takers, just out to gobble up all the free lunches they can get without ever offering anything of value in exchange.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 5:40:00 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

I have never, in any context, bdsm or non-bdsm, understood the concept of wanting or demanding power without being willing to assume the greater responsibility that comes with weilding such power. If anybody deserves to be demonized, I think it is those people, who strike me as selfish, lazy takers, just out to gobble up all the free lunches they can get without ever offering anything of value in exchange.

Welcome to the land of doublespeak. What does "dominant" mean? Why, it means anything you want it to mean, of course, lest we offend anyone.

You make an excellent point, but it even goes beyond what you've said here. It's not just a matter of the dominant party being willing to assume responsiblity, they have it, want to or not, if they are actually dominant, no? Doesn't the very definition of "dominant" imply one has the greater influence over (and therefore greater responsbility for) the course of events? To the extent that you are dominant, events are shaped according to your will, are they not? To the extent that you aren't dominant, they aren't. That is actual dominance.

In this community the harsh light of an actual definition causes a great deal of uneasiness, though. Folks want to be "a dominant" and still blame "a submissive" when things go awry, or at least not as they would like them to. Take this thread as an example. The OP seems to be offering up a definition of dominant that boils down to "doer" and submissive as "doee". The doer gets to do the doee as long as he doesn't piss off the doee, otherwise the doee finds a doer more to the doee's liking. That has almost nothing to do with dominance and submission. It's just the happy (or unhappy) circumstance of compatible or incompatible fetishes.

So, just a word to the wise for you; you can't really tell on these boards what people mean by the words that they use most of the time. You have to look at the context in which they are using them to figure out what they are trying to say.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/16/2009 5:51:26 AM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 6:55:34 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
But when I hear, "the sub does not have less responsibility toward a relationship... and the dom does not have more," as I did earlier in this thread, I start to wonder just how exactly is such a relationship different from a vanilla one?

It's not. The laws of the land say that you are responsible for yourself. "I was just following my Master's orders," didn't work at Nuremberg, and it won't work in front of your local magistrate either. Furthermore, there are basic laws of human relationships, one of them being that if the people in the relationship stop investing in it, the relationship will start to die. So if you want a good relationship, you have to accept daily responsibility to build it.

The realities of the world don't suspend themselves just because you desire to abdicate responsibility. Think of a relationship with another human being -- either a friendship or something "more" -- as a child of yours. You can either nurture it daily, or you can be a Deadbeat Dad. Your choice.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 7:07:21 AM

SimplyMichael

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My singular goal in posting this was to have a discussion of the damage that demonizing dominants, especially new and or inexperienced tops/dominants/masters/daddys/dommes/whatthefuckevers, does to the scene/community/chatrooms/dungeons/lifestyle/fetish/whateverthefuck.

In short, if we demonize anyone who makes a mistake OR IS CLUELESS, we don't teach people to learn, all we do is create a culture where it pays to hide your mistakes, to lie about your experience, to embrace some old guard/right guard/ancient ways/secret ways/whateverthefuckways as a way of showing you are not an idiot?

Sound like anything any of you recognize?

[note to Leanidas, this thread has nothing to do with WHAT constitutes dominance, I realize you don't think I could dominate my way out of a wet paper bag, your women agree with you and my women see differently, but that is a pissing contest for another thread, not this one]

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 7/16/2009 7:08:42 AM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 7:08:34 AM

nephandi

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Greetings

What about not demonizing anyone, sure sometimes you have abusive or dangerous pepole that you run into. But most of the time a failed relationship or a failed date is just bad chemistry, none was to blame, it just happened. And yes I agree that subs to need to be aware of what they are doing and who they are trusting and not put the entire responsibility over in the Dom's lap. I also do not think it is a good think to speak badly of pepole, sub or Dom, even if you had a bad experience with them, not unless the person is obiously somone dangerous, and not just somone you think is a jerk.

I wish you well

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 8:12:44 AM

FawneTwo

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I agree. Making snap judgements and over use of banal expressions to condense experience can't be beneficial - to any community.

To quote CaringandReal

" have never, in any context, bdsm or non-bdsm, understood the concept of wanting or demanding power without being willing to assume the greater responsibility that comes with weilding such power.

Me neither. Seems universal ( i wanted to write distinctly American but who am I to say? Doubt it's true anyway) earthly? People whine and whinge <smile> and bitch but don't dare try or have the guts or imagination and are lazy so it's not in order to take a step ...
Anyway - demading power without expecting responsibility is cluesless if you ask me. Like a political thing.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 11:21:39 AM

vasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici

We as human beings, can only survive if we continue to learn from each other, no matter the label, the persuasion, the culture, the orientation--it is the fool who refuses to do so.

agreed. completely.

-----------------------------

ive seen this same kind of thing happen on the other side of the fence. deamonising bad subs... in or out of chatrooms/forums can really be demoraliseing, extremly hurtful, and/or damageing (on any number of levels) for rest of us.

peace

< Message edited by vasha -- 7/16/2009 11:24:50 AM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 12:58:01 PM

Screwtape

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I have been following this subject across several conversations, and am very happy to it called out specifically.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

My singular goal in posting this was to have a discussion of the damage that demonizing dominants

I am always trying to find the silver lining with this type of thing, and I usually come across a little naive, perhaps I am. This is more of a counter point to all the "Reasons not to: comments that have been made.

Demonizing [Insert Title Here] in my experience is usually attempt to apply peer pressure to a given group. I can see you point, and it is easy to see the external effect of demonization, but there is a less visible side.

Note: This is the "How naive can he be?" part.
Social expectations (peer pressure) is an effective way of encouraging (some) peoples mental and emotional growth. Without it people can begin to believe their own hype and begin to think that they don't need to view their actions objectively. It would be better to demonize actions or behaviors, and avoid targeting people. It is unfortunate that Doms/Masters/Tops/etc can get the brunt of personal criticism, but it goes with the territory. These lifestyle have the potential to cause the most harm if done incorrectly. My partners rely on me to be knowledgeable, patient and safe. If I fail to meet their needs, I hope to be judged as worthy to continue the relationship. If not then they can villainize if they choose.

This is just my 2 cents.
It is more of a personal reflection and not a comment against any one group or a counterpoint to anything posted so far.

I would go into the negative side of demonizing any group but I think it has all been said.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 1:14:42 PM

IronBear

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FR

One way of looking at this whole shimozzle and remembering there are no hard and fast guide lines on what makes a good or a bad Dominant, is to understand one simple fact: "The person you slam publicly as a Bad Dom, is for some one else is a Good Dom and for yet another a Great Dom." Every one has their own standards and expectations and no one's is better than another and I hate to break it to you, but there is no BDSM God or Goddess who can make such a universal ruling.There are people who in my personal opinion are questionable in the area of being a Good Dom (Based only on my personal standards and ethics) yet they command respect from many others. There are even more who I quite frankly wouldn't't take a step out of my way to piss on if they were burning and yet I know them to be good Dominants. It is as I say a matter of persopnal preferences, likes and dislikes.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/16/2009 1:18:12 PM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 2:30:44 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Screwtape

It would be better to demonize actions or behaviors, and avoid targeting people.

Great point. I am ALL for calling someone on their behavior, demonize the behavior, not the person.

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 3:03:52 PM

BossyShoeBitch

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Ahh.. I get it.

SCENARIO 1:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Don't you know how to ride a fucking bike you stupid, fucking moron?", then Human "A" is going to feel like an idiot (which might undermine their self confidence) , so the next time Human "A" rides a bike, if they feel like Human "B" is expecting them to fall again, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy; and if that were to happen, they would more than likely hide the fact they fell from Human "B" (and all of their friends) because they don't want to be called a "stupid fucking moron" again.

OR:

SCENARIO 2:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Oops, are you ok? Don't worry that happens to alot of people when they first learn to ride a bike. Can I show an easier way to try that? It may help to keep you from falling off next time."

You advocate scenario 2.

Right?

< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 7/16/2009 3:04:38 PM >

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RE: Why demonizing bad doms is bad - 7/16/2009 3:49:41 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

Ahh.. I get it.

SCENARIO 1:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Don't you know how to ride a fucking bike you stupid, fucking moron?", then Human "A" is going to feel like an idiot (which might undermine their self confidence) , so the next time Human "A" rides a bike, if they feel like Human "B" is expecting them to fall again, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy; and if that were to happen, they would more than likely hide the fact they fell from Human "B" (and all of their friends) because they don't want to be called a "stupid fucking moron" again.

OR:

SCENARIO 2:
If Human "A" falls of their bike, and Human "B" says, "Oops, are you ok? Don't worry that happens to alot of people when they first learn to ride a bike. Can I show an easier way to try that? It may help to keep you from falling off next time."

You advocate scenario 2.

Right?