RE: Nanny state is at it again !

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 3:11:57 PM

JonnieBoy

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Shit ! next thing the fuckers will want me to "surrender" my teeth (a deadly weapon I wouldn't hesitate to use to bite the throat out of of my 15 year old gardening tool wielding assailant with).

Pirate

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 4:40:55 PM

Politesub53

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Panda, here is a link to some info on the reasons for the ban on knife sales.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article402197.ece

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 5:08:22 PM

slaveboyforyou

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Politesub, is that all knives? Can you carry a knife with a blade under a certain length. Here it's different depending on the state. My state allows you to carry a knife with a blade under 3.5 inches. Anything above that length is considered a weapon; unless you're transporting the knife from the point of purchase to your residence, you're traveling to a site for hunting, fishing, camping, etc, or your on a journey over 20 miles (where you can carry any weapon that isn't specifically banned).

The article doesn't really specify. I just don't understand anyone (kids included) getting charged with a crime for carrying a small pocket knife (like a Swiss Army knife for example).

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 5:18:12 PM

Politesub53

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Slaveboy, here is a guide for you.

http://www.goxplore.net/guides/Knife_law_(UK)

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 5:22:42 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Knife law (UK
From Guides

There is currently no text in this page, you can search for this page title in other pages or edit this page.

That's what comes up on your link.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 5:30:28 PM

Politesub53

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http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/CrimePrevention/DG_078569

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/24/2009 6:48:33 PM

slaveboyforyou

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Thanks Politesub. Well, it doesn't sound much different from our laws. Except we can carry any knife (fixed handle, automatic, lockback, etc) as long as it's under 3.5 inches and it's a single bladed knife (it can't be a dagger with two cutting edges). We don't have to have a reason either. The list of prohibited weapons is very close to our list. We can carry truncheons when on a journey. In fact, truckers carry them to check the pressure in their tires. All of the weapons listed, we can legally own and transport home. But we can't carry them around with us in public.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/25/2009 2:37:28 AM

RCdc

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Master has a wallet chain that he wears that clips to his belt and the other end to the wallet he keeps in his pocket.
When he went to France with work, he was stopped at the security section and told that they would have to confiscate it due to it being potential choking hazzard.

He did point out to them, he was wearing a belt. He decided not to point out to them that rather than take the time to unclip the chain from his belt and take a few moments to remove his wallet from his pocket, that he could just smack them around the head with the laptop he was carrying.

The even more ironic thing was that when he entered the next area that was just past the security section, he could buy the wallet chains that were displayed outside the duty free stores.

Looks like it wasn't so much that he couldn't choke them, just that they had to be with BA approved chains.

the.dark.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/25/2009 4:00:27 AM

Phoenixpower

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That reminds me on one of the countless first aid trainings I had to attend for work where I was once told that one item in those boxes is not meant to be in there anymore as it also was a chocking hazzard or that someone could strungle him-/herself with it or cut themselves with it...don't remember what it was precisely after 3 years having been on that one but I pointed out that then they also should not put bandages into the first aid box...because they can also strangle someone...for heavens sake...the nanny state thing is one of the biggest reason why I can't wait to get out of here...one of countless examples is at uni where I now have to wait until I get a placement allocated via my tutor...last year I had a crap one (as after working 9 years at that time in residential homes a placement in a nursing home is such a "new experience" for me...not to mention that this was not really great for my studies anyway...) however in Germany I would be - as in many aspects - in charge to sort that out myself. With sorting it out myself "I" can decide where I would want to do my placement and if I don't like it during the placement then I can't blame anyone for it as "I" chose it...but here..nope, you go where you are allocated to and your are not supposed to decline it (as that then can lead to a huuuuuuuuge delay for finding another one for you...).

Or last year I dared to accept a nurse practisioner instead of a doctor at my surgery as I did not get my sore throat under control at all...once she realised that I am overdue with other examinations she was not bothered at all about my sore throat even tried to blame me with comments such as "you are keen on antibiotics, arent you" and "I will prescribe you xyz antibiotics despite medical evidence for it"...right...well, with examening my throat with a huge desk between her and me she obviously had a really good look...(and as I had "NO REASON AT ALL for it the doctor the following week prescribed me another load of antibiotics as it did not get any better at all and I was off to go to canada over the winter so had even more reasons to make sure to get better). however, what I was about to say was that she just tried to put me down about that but tried to keep pushing me to do an appointment for the other stuff which was so not in my mind at that time and due to her attitude I am just now in the mind set not to go at all for that in the UK. I am not used to the life of "being told what I would have to do" in such an intense level as it feels for me over here and that does wear me out a lot. Since my fibromyalgia got way out of hands over here I learned by now to just to shut up and go with the flow which is part of the reason why I became more submissive, it just sucks here for me *sorry, but true*

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/25/2009 3:46:38 PM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

fuck about in public

Pirate

Gotta love those brittish. Ya don't hear words like that everday.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 6:09:36 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
In the photo, the kid is holding up a machete.

Which is a farkin useful TOOL.

The "offensive weapon" is only such if "intent" is established ... I'm very useful with one of these devices, they are VERY useful bushcraft tools ... I buy nearly all of my outdoor equipment online, yet again MY freedom is under danger of being trampled over in favour of bullshit, opressive kneejerk "laws" resulting from the CRAP "success" rates of the police service who are too busy making "easy pinches" of partygoers and minor motoring offenders rather than "nicking" "wronguns".

FTR : A weapon is not always obvious, with intent, it is possible to kill EASILY with ones bare hands ... should we all be amputated next ???

Pirate

Yeah, I am the same, I buy my outdoor equipment online and not being able to find a golok, machete or parang on fleabay, I did manage to get a lovely billhook, the English equivalant of the foreign hacking blades. The reason why I was able to get a billhook off fleabay, was because they are'nt a banned edged weapon, because they are a gardening, copicing tool used by craftspeople, but a billhook ( called a fascine knife in the US),is in the same veine as a machete, parang and golok, oh, and it is a curved blade too, but not so far banned.

I use my billhook in lieu of a hand axe, and is a far more useful tool, better control and use. What do I use it for, well, chopping stuff up, as my present knives are cutting tools not chopping tools. I like knives, I always have, I have selected blades for different uses and to me, they are tools, tools to do various jobs in the crafts I take on.Oh, and I still carry a knife as I always have, and yes, it does fall into what is legal to carry these days, a Leatherman Juice Xe6.

I also from time to time make knives, and maybe it will come where I will do what others have suggested, make knives for others, as a stream of income. Online sales would be a logical sales arena, but if a law comes into being that stops online sales of my edged and pointed crafts, I will be kind of sunk. But one thing that seems to elude the do gooders, those that make knives, the crafters, when they make these things, they are individually crafted, many hours of hard work, and as a result they cost, a sum of money asked that the kudos seeking whatever and violent will not afford, never mind be able to afford, but they would'nt given a cheaper kitchen knife will do. A law to stop blade sales on line will affect the craft knife seller because laws here are blanket bans, not precisely engineered to catch the problem area.

The fault as I see it, is not the tool, but the attitude, an attitude that has grown in this country because of what, maybe the need for protection, is a direct result of a police force not able to police. If people do not feel safe, they will guard themselves. One thing I did think as a response to myself living in an area fraught with gun and knife violence some five years ago, was an attitude became standard, that sub 14 year old youths knew full well their rights under the law, and as a result, did what they liked with the full knowledge the police know they can do little. Maybe it is the stupidity of the situation that allowed the sub 14 year olds to thrive often lawlessly that is a large part of the problem now.

The failure as I see it, is the break up of law and order in a society too concerned with the human rights of the offending individual than that of the law abiding majority.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 9:24:52 AM

FullCircle

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Seems like a good idea to me. This isn't about changing the law but is about enforcing the intent of the previous laws. Perhaps if these websites had dealt with potential buyers by insisting on a reference or only dealing with those people using credit cards this could have been easily prevented.

It also amuses me that people wrap knives up in bubble wrap, hopefully the person unwrapping them didn't grab the wrong end. Rolling the knife up in that corrugated cardboard seems a far better packaging idea to me.

It's H&S gone mad I tells ya!

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 7/27/2009 9:26:12 AM >

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 11:26:04 AM

Aneirin

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I make knives, they always come with a scabbard, the scabbard is part of the knife. Yes, I have sent a knife by post, it scabbarded and wrapped in bubble wrap, cardboard etc to hide it's shape, but always do I put in writing with arrows to show where the blade is, so the recipient has no excuse to get it wrong. Furthermore, the scabbard is taped or otherwise tied onto the knife, the binding has to be cut by external means to bare the blade.

My billhook came wrapped in bubble wrap and cardboard, surprisingly just loosely applied. Feeling the package, I ascertained where the handle was through the packaging and there mined through the wrapping to get the thing free. The blade was as expected for an 80 year old rusty tool, dull, the vendor stated that, but even so, if the thing had fallen on my foot, it would have done some damage, more so by it's weight, not any sharp edge for it weighs one and a half pound.

As for vendors of edged tools, when they receive an order via online, they have to assume the age of responsibility, for how else are they to ascetain this information given no online method of payment reveals items such as the all important age for restricted goods. Maybe the problem is the payment system, not the mechandise, if it is, then it is down to the financial institutions to sort it out, not the lowly vendor. But then we have a government that panders to the financial houses, what they want, not those that elected them in which there are vendors, law abiding merchants and craftspeople just trying to make a living.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 12:14:20 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
As for vendors of edged tools, when they receive an order via online, they have to assume the age of responsibility, for how else are they to ascetain this information given no online method of payment reveals items such as the all important age for restricted goods. Maybe the problem is the payment system, not the mechandise, if it is, then it is down to the financial institutions to sort it out, not the lowly vendor.

You make a call to the bank to verify the age of the person on the card details.
It's not rocket science.

If you are going to sell dangerous tools, be responsible.

the.dark.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 12:37:50 PM

FullCircle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
As for vendors of edged tools, when they receive an order via online, they have to assume the age of responsibility, for how else are they to ascetain this information given no online method of payment reveals items such as the all important age for restricted goods. Maybe the problem is the payment system, not the mechandise, if it is, then it is down to the financial institutions to sort it out, not the lowly vendor. But then we have a government that panders to the financial houses, what they want, not those that elected them in which there are vendors, law abiding merchants and craftspeople just trying to make a living.

I'm not familiar with the payment mechanism but a source in the article asks how gambling sites are easily able to distinguish between the debit cards of minors and adults. Thus the argument is made: why can't vendors of things intended for responsible adults do the same as gambling sites? Some kind of licensing scheme is required where such vendors can check the payment details of the buyers.

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 2:42:18 PM

JonnieBoy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
In the photo, the kid is holding up a machete.

Which is a farkin useful TOOL.

The "offensive weapon" is only such if "intent" is established ... I'm very useful with one of these devices, they are VERY useful bushcraft tools ... I buy nearly all of my outdoor equipment online, yet again MY freedom is under danger of being trampled over in favour of bullshit, opressive kneejerk "laws" resulting from the CRAP "success" rates of the police service who are too busy making "easy pinches" of partygoers and minor motoring offenders rather than "nicking" "wronguns".

FTR : A weapon is not always obvious, with intent, it is possible to kill EASILY with ones bare hands ... should we all be amputated next ???

Pirate

Yeah, I am the same, I buy my outdoor equipment online and not being able to find a golok, machete or parang on fleabay, I did manage to get a lovely billhook, the English equivalant of the foreign hacking blades. The reason why I was able to get a billhook off fleabay, was because they are'nt a banned edged weapon, because they are a gardening, copicing tool used by craftspeople, but a billhook ( called a fascine knife in the US),is in the same veine as a machete, parang and golok, oh, and it is a curved blade too, but not so far banned.

I use my billhook in lieu of a hand axe, and is a far more useful tool, better control and use. What do I use it for, well, chopping stuff up, as my present knives are cutting tools not chopping tools. I like knives, I always have, I have selected blades for different uses and to me, they are tools, tools to do various jobs in the crafts I take on.Oh, and I still carry a knife as I always have, and yes, it does fall into what is legal to carry these days, a Leatherman Juice Xe6.

I also from time to time make knives, and maybe it will come where I will do what others have suggested, make knives for others, as a stream of income. Online sales would be a logical sales arena, but if a law comes into being that stops online sales of my edged and pointed crafts, I will be kind of sunk. But one thing that seems to elude the do gooders, those that make knives, the crafters, when they make these things, they are individually crafted, many hours of hard work, and as a result they cost, a sum of money asked that the kudos seeking whatever and violent will not afford, never mind be able to afford, but they would'nt given a cheaper kitchen knife will do. A law to stop blade sales on line will affect the craft knife seller because laws here are blanket bans, not precisely engineered to catch the problem area.

The fault as I see it, is not the tool, but the attitude, an attitude that has grown in this country because of what, maybe the need for protection, is a direct result of a police force not able to police. If people do not feel safe, they will guard themselves. One thing I did think as a response to myself living in an area fraught with gun and knife violence some five years ago, was an attitude became standard, that sub 14 year old youths knew full well their rights under the law, and as a result, did what they liked with the full knowledge the police know they can do little. Maybe it is the stupidity of the situation that allowed the sub 14 year olds to thrive often lawlessly that is a large part of the problem now.

The failure as I see it, is the break up of law and order in a society too concerned with the human rights of the offending individual than that of the law abiding majority.

As you say (and the "law" agrees) it is not the tool but the attitude "intent" is hard to prove but I know that if I had "intent" the question would be examined "after the fact". I possess a veritable arsenal of "weapons" which have many mundane uses.
On one occasion I had to visit a court (

for perfectly "innocent" civil reasons) and was asked to hand over my knife and chain (2ft chain with full Swiss Army knife on the end) for the duration of my short visit to collect a couple of forms.
I was NOT however asked to hand over the BELT of 762 "bullets" holding my trousers up ... even though is was blatantly obvious to see and none of the "security" would have had a clue if they were live or not. (It would have made for a better weapon than the chain regardless).

Let's have some sense here, the law is failing, so it picks on the easy subjects rather than DEALING with real crime.It is not good we get all manner of "petty" crime to tolerate in favour of ... those who can afford to PAY FINES being penalised by such bollocks.

Pirate

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 2:56:19 PM

JonnieBoy

Posts: 1468
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

fuck about in public

Pirate

Gotta love those brittish. Ya don't hear words like that everday.

I'm available (for a fee or a few ciders) to translate

(not British though ... "United Kingdom Citizen" ... and grudgingly at that)

(I blame the fucking Saxons) (what did the fucking Romans ever do for us ?)(apart from the introduction of big noses, lower door frames and brown eyes?)

Pirate

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RE: Nanny state is at it again ! - 7/27/2009 10:43:57 PM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

I'm available (for a fee or a few ciders) to translate

(not British though ... "United Kingdom Citizen" ... and grudgingly at that)

(I blame the fucking Saxons) (what did the fucking Romans ever do for us ?)(apart from the introduction of big noses, lower door frames and brown eyes?)

Pirate

Hell it took me a while to find out what the hell "oi" meant.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

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