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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 8:46:28 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

greetings Master Zevar

im not exactly sure what you are referring too. hopefully you will indulge a few questions.

are you saying that for someone to be sadistic, they are out of control or are angry?

is a sadistic act seen as an act of violence to you?

the site you offered is well written, of course, to the standards of Mayo clinic, which i hold in high regard. having said that, Master, do you believe they are the best to diagnose a lifestyle that isnt mainstream?

thank you in advance Master

well wishes

tazzy

Greetings tazzy:

In your reply to my most recent posting you asked the following questions below. I have set them forth and answered your questions in a forthright manner.

Question A} are you saying that for someone to be sadistic, they are out of control or are angry?

Answer: Categorically speaking when “violent sadism” is a factor in a “gorean framework” and is accepted for the purposes of harming another with no regard of the effects that might result, there in lies the issue. To act out with no regard of what any dysfunctional behavior has on another oft-times is rooted in internal unresolved issues that can include uncontrollable anger as a presenting issue.

Further when confronting those who act in an uncontrolled manner with the facts of what uncontrollable anger can result in and how the refusal to disengage from acting in such a manner has done more damage that can be collected and assimilated, unfortunately is disregarded by those who act out of control in ways that seems “natural” to them and to those around them yet is not natural at all. Rather is defined from a distorted perspective and reinforced by others who behave similarly thus deemed what is collectively agreed upon, be it “natural“ or “right.” Keep in mind that usually those who do act out sadistic violence and with no regard for those who they harm do so from the basis of there is “ No right and No wrong.”

Question B} is a sadistic act seen as an act of violence to you?

Answer: According to the Laws of the Land physical violent sadistic acts are illegal and punishable by law. This is simply fact. What someone does with the facts is what determines their outcome for their actions.

Question C}
the site you offered is well written, of course, to the standards of Mayo clinic, which i hold in high regard. having said that, Master, do you believe they are the best to diagnose a lifestyle that isn’t mainstream?

Answer:
Clinically speaking Mayo Clinic far surpasses a reputation beyond reproach. It does not matter who deems who is best to “diagnose a lifestyle that isnt mainstream?” What manners is accepting that it is already diagnosed by professionals in many different fields that work on a collaborative level for the reduction of “sadistic violence” regardless if it is deemed to be a working element in a “gorean framework” or not. Facts are facts.

Thank you for your valued contribution to this topic.


I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 9:14:10 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
On another note, if you or anyone seriously is interested in calmly discussing the topic of this thread without mud slinging then present your thoughts for discussion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
The question remains: What defines a gorean framework ? Does it include violent sadistic behavior toward the women who are in the life a man to provide whatever is needed for the well-being of any woman who is dependent on a man?


Since you seem to have missed it completely, here is where I already discussed this topic, as did many others....except you.... o,O

Happy reading!

~Kimveri

Kimveri:

According to your recent entry as quoted herein above, you claim that the topic of “ What defines a gorean framework” was already discussed in a thread you started in this forum. I disagree with your claim. The topic you presented was not, “ What defines a gorean framework?“ The fact that some might include in a “gorean framework” the integration and thus the acting out of “sadistic violence” does not negate that this topic is much broader than has been explored and further includes the following questions that I originally presented for discussion as follows that your thread did not address:

quote:

I am presenting the following for discussion. I welcome discussion about any or all of the following questions.

1} What defines a gorean framework?

2} Is a gorean framework something that is defined individually for those who are Free or is it defined in another manner and if so how and by whom?

3} How does a gorean framework become integrated into the daily life of the Household of the Free?

4} What about or rather within a gorean framework separates from a non-gorean framework?

5} What role does gorean morality have to do with defining a gorean framework?

6} How does the a defined gorean framework lends itself to the welfare of society?

7} What contributing factors of defined gorean framework contribute to the daily living as a gorean?


If you elect to contribute by remaining on topic and addressing any of the questions herein above presented then I will reconsider replying to your entry. If not then of course I will simply ignore you as I am only seeking to have a fruitful discussion on “What defines a gorean framework.”

Nothing more, nothing less.


I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 9:14:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Greetings Master

Thank you for your response. i think the problem i am having with this is because of consent, perhaps the idea that its always with a lack of control, and that some may consider this abnormal, not that anyone would consider it normal.

so, i went on a search, and this is what i discovered. The Mayo Report didnt go far enough, i feel, into describing the diagnostics or demographics. for example

quote:

Demographics
Although sadistic sexual fantasies often begin in the person's childhood, the onset of active sexual sadism typically occurs during early adult life. When actual sadistic behavior begins, it will often continue on a chronic course for people with this disorder, especially if they do not seek help.

Sexual sadism with consenting partners is much more common than with nonconsensual partners. When consenting partners are involved, the sadist and the masochist may be either male or female. When non-consenting partners are involved, the sadist is almost always a male.

Sadomasochism involving consenting partners is not considered rare or unusual in the United States. It often occurs outside of the realm of a mental disorder. Fewer people consider themselves sadistic than masochistic.


and the diagnosis criteria

quote:

DSM-IV-TR criteria for sexual sadism include recurrent intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving real acts in which another person is suffering psychological or physical suffering, pain, and humiliation. The victim's suffering, pain, and humiliation cause the person with sexual sadism to become aroused. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors must be present for at least six months.

The diagnostic criteria also require either that the person has acted on these urges or fantasies with a nonconsenting person, or that the person has experienced noticeable distress or interpersonal problems because of these urges or fantasies.

Sexual sadism must be differentiated from normal sexual arousal, behavior, and experimentation. Some forms of mild aggression, such as "love bites" or scratching, are within the range of normal behavior during sexual intercourse. Sadism should also be differentiated from sadomasochistic behavior that involves only mild pain and/or the simulation of more dangerous pain. When these factors are present, a diagnosis of sexual sadism is not necessarily warranted.

Other mental disorders, such as the psychotic disorders, may include elements of sadism or other paraphilias. For example, patients with psychotic symptoms may perform sadistic acts for reasons other than sexual excitement. In these cases, an additional diagnosis of sexual sadism is not warranted.

Persons diagnosed with sexual sadism may have other sexual disorders or paraphilias. Some individuals, especially males, have diagnoses of both sexual sadism and sexual masochism.


http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

well wishes Master

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 10:00:51 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

<quote>
In closing:

1] Why does a free man or free woman need to resort to violence or being sadistic if he or she is in total control of self first?

2] Does not our innate freedom come with the expectation to maintain self control with yourself first which naturally fosters responsibility and accountability in a gorean framework?

The results gained by managing self control is not anything that I would exchange for the results of acting out violent sadistic behavior on a trusting female, slave or free woman for the record.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

</quote>

1). you try to glue two rather disparate notions into one, sadistic behavior does not equal violence.  Nevertheless; an example of a violent person with great self control might be someone in a war.
2). innate freedom only comes with lassize faire, otherwise you wouldn't need cops or courts.

Well, you are all set, and no one seeks your exchange.

Ron  


Greetings Ron:

quote:

1.) you try to glue two rather disparate notions into one, sadistic behavior does not equal violence.

Answer: http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html


quote:

Nevertheless; an example of a violent person with great self control might be someone in a war.


Answer: When a man goes to war he does so with the understanding that his enlistment does include to protect against foreign enemies and in doing so he will use methods of combat to reinforce his allegiance to his country which will include violence among other tactics, etc.. His self control is utilized in a much different manner than would be required when he relates with a female. Clearly relating with a female does not include the need to “protect” by use of any form of sadistic violent force directed at her. Thus self control in this reference is required to be demonstrated in a manner that is consistently stable and long term, daily. Which equals a protection that is safe, lacking evidence of any form of sadism that is in fact violent and never needed to relate with a female, regardless of her “status” be she slave or free woman.


quote:

2). innate freedom only comes with lassize faire, otherwise you wouldn't need cops or courts.



Answer:

Innate –adjective

1. existing in one from birth; inborn; native: innate musical talent.
2. inherent in the essential character of something: an innate defect in the hypothesis.
3. originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience: an innate knowledge of good and evil.

Free will is innate thus equals freedom or rather innate freedom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:

Well, you are all set, and no one seeks your exchange.



Congratulations! I did not know you were the already or perhaps recently voted in as the “online spokesman” for everyone Thanks for the information that "you are all set" and lets us not forget the most inportant information of the day.... “ no one seeks your exchange.”

Just think…hmm

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 10:28:59 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie

great post Zevar
But as always mention extreme Sadism on a thread and most of the regulars avoid it like the plague and others will just add sarcasm and jibes and insults.

I think it comes down to the old saying to each there own and to live life to the best of your abilitys what you believe to be true and leave those who believe in a different path to live that type of lifestyle.

well wishes

Mitzie


Greetings Mitzie:

While to an extent I agree with the fact that many will not discuss what they deny, yet at the same time in most instances discussed or not karma has a way of revealing what is denied if others agree or not.

We can hide behind sarcasm , jibes and insults yet eventually karma has a way of sending back what was sent forth. If believed or not.

If anyone chooses to think their motto is “ live and let live “ when it comes to remaining quiet if witnessing sadistic violence then so be it. However not my cup of tea. There is no reason to need to use violent sadism to form, mold, teach, inspire or command a “slave” nor is violent sadism required to maintain a functional Free Companionship. Self control is required in the care of all that is the responsibility of free man to maintain. The way I view this whole sadistic violent out of control behavior being condoned in a gorean framework is why destroy with your own actions what is a reflection of who you are to be as a man of supposed integrity?

I wish you most well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to Mitzie)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 11:00:10 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly:
I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly:
I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~

(in reply to kiani)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 12:56:09 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly:
I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly:
I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~



Greetings Zevar

Was this whole thing a thinly veiled around about pat on the back for you?

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 12:57:01 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Greetings Master

Thank you for your response. i think the problem i am having with this is because of consent, perhaps the idea that its always with a lack of control, and that some may consider this abnormal, not that anyone would consider it normal.

so, i went on a search, and this is what i discovered. The Mayo Report didnt go far enough, i feel, into describing the diagnostics or demographics. for example

quote:

Demographics
Although sadistic sexual fantasies often begin in the person's childhood, the onset of active sexual sadism typically occurs during early adult life. When actual sadistic behavior begins, it will often continue on a chronic course for people with this disorder, especially if they do not seek help.

Sexual sadism with consenting partners is much more common than with nonconsensual partners. When consenting partners are involved, the sadist and the masochist may be either male or female. When non-consenting partners are involved, the sadist is almost always a male.

Sadomasochism involving consenting partners is not considered rare or unusual in the United States. It often occurs outside of the realm of a mental disorder. Fewer people consider themselves sadistic than masochistic.


and the diagnosis criteria

quote:

DSM-IV-TR criteria for sexual sadism include recurrent intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving real acts in which another person is suffering psychological or physical suffering, pain, and humiliation. The victim's suffering, pain, and humiliation cause the person with sexual sadism to become aroused. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors must be present for at least six months.

The diagnostic criteria also require either that the person has acted on these urges or fantasies with a nonconsenting person, or that the person has experienced noticeable distress or interpersonal problems because of these urges or fantasies.

Sexual sadism must be differentiated from normal sexual arousal, behavior, and experimentation. Some forms of mild aggression, such as "love bites" or scratching, are within the range of normal behavior during sexual intercourse. Sadism should also be differentiated from sadomasochistic behavior that involves only mild pain and/or the simulation of more dangerous pain. When these factors are present, a diagnosis of sexual sadism is not necessarily warranted.

Other mental disorders, such as the psychotic disorders, may include elements of sadism or other paraphilias. For example, patients with psychotic symptoms may perform sadistic acts for reasons other than sexual excitement. In these cases, an additional diagnosis of sexual sadism is not warranted.

Persons diagnosed with sexual sadism may have other sexual disorders or paraphilias. Some individuals, especially males, have diagnoses of both sexual sadism and sexual masochism.


http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

well wishes Master

tazzy


Greetings tazzy

In reply to your recent entry I have emailed you various links for you to explore. Hopefully in reading them you will be able to arrive at your own answer to what you presented.
quote:

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

Further understand that I elected to send links via email as the quanity of them are rather extensive. I was not sure of the extent of links that are permitted here in a reply. I did not care to violate any rule of Tos or otherwise.

Again, I appreciate your valuable contribution to this topic.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar~

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 1:28:24 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly:
I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly:
I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~



Greetings Zevar

Was this whole thing a thinly veiled around about pat on the back for you?



Greetings blacksword404:

It appears that you did not understand the topic of this thread based on your recent misguided entry. The topic is “ What defines a gorean framework?” If you would like to contribute in a manner that is on topic then I welcome your entry. I might even consider discussing the topic with you even if you promote sadistic violence as an acceptable element in a gorean framework. We will not agree that is it acceptable but none the less discussion can be fruitful even if there is no consensus. IMO

Oh yes, lest I forget be very CLEAR there will be NO pat on the back just speaking the truth even when there is total opposition. So be prepared to know I will speak the truth of how I define a gorean framework with NO apology and that does include my every word I spoke in reply to the entry that you question my motive. Enough said....

No more and no less as my motto goes.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 1:55:50 AM   
YoungLust


Posts: 70
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Personally, there isn't a great deal of room for it in my life.......


Nor in my life, precisely so.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~


More for me then :D


< Message edited by YoungLust -- 7/31/2009 1:56:20 AM >

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 2:02:56 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
Greetings Zevar

It would be way too long and fruitless for me to discuss this. The way you put sadistic violence together with Gorean as if they are interchangeable is why I am going to leave this one alone.



_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 3:17:49 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

Greetings Zevar


It would be way too long and fruitless for me to discuss this. The way you put sadistic violence together with Gorean as if they are interchangeable is why I am going to leave this one alone.


Greetings blacksword404:

At best your distorted reasoning for not discussing this topic is questionable. None the less like yourself surely you are not the only Free who refuses to address “What defines a gorean framework?” Understand that the element of sadistic violence will not be perceived the same between those who disagree regarding the possiblity of sadism becoming violent, thus some would argue that a gorean framework is personally defined as what they alone deem it to be with no regard to society.

It could appear to some that they can "choose", as there is " No right and No wrong", on a psychological level to simply decompartmentalize sadism to appear to be set apart from violence thus to not be integrated as a contributing factor in the whole equation when it comes to determining how sadism can convert to violence. Again as there is " No right and No wrong", correct? Think again!

Although the analysis in the link provided herein below "The Sexual Aim of Sadism Manifested in Acts of Violence., H.W. Van Ophuijsen " does not directly address a gorean framework, neither does it exclude a gorean framework by mention or presenting facts. It does though mention how the sexual aim of sadism is manifested in acts of violence and the contributing factors that are in most instances relevant with all acts of sadism which are categorically violent.

Therefore this platform that I presented as a starting place to discuss "What defines a gorean framework?" lends itself to a reasonable conclusion: that sadistic violence does not have a functional place in a gorean framework or elsewhere in society as it is not based in what is innately natural from a mutually functional standpoint. Further the outcome of sadistic violence in a gorean framework or elsewhere does not contribute anything to society that enriches or advances humanity.

You indicated in your recent entry quoted below of having no interest in discussing this topic as you implied that there is no relation between sadism and violence and that goreans are some how exempt from sadism turning violent, as you imply by way of accusing me of assuming the interchangeability of sadism and violence of not becoming volatile to be faulty.
quote:

Greetings Zevar

It would be way too long and fruitless for me to discuss this. The way you put sadistic violence together with Gorean as if they are interchangeable is why I am going to leave this one alone.


My position remains that sadistic violence has no place in a gorean framework. Simple.

FYI--The provided link requires a subscription to non-members to fully read the article. Proceed as you wish.
http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=IJP.010.0139A

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 7:56:25 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Although the analysis in the link provided herein below "The Sexual Aim of Sadism Manifested in Acts of Violence., H.W. Van Ophuijsen " does not directly address a gorean framework, neither does it exclude a gorean framework by mention or presenting facts. It does though mention how the sexual aim of sadism is manifested in acts of violence and the contributing factors that are in most instances relevant with all acts of sadism which are categorically violent.

~Zevar~[/font][/size]


"The Sexual Aim of Sadism Manifested in Acts of Violence., H.W. Van Ophuijsen "
1882-1950

one would think that while he was most likely a brilliant man in his field, the era he grew up in has indeed changed and become more enlightened about the sexual relationships of people. for the use of this discussion Master, isnt this a bit outdated?



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 8:33:40 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Greetings Master

Thank you for your response. i think the problem i am having with this is because of consent, perhaps the idea that its always with a lack of control, and that some may consider this abnormal, not that anyone would consider it normal.

so, i went on a search, and this is what i discovered. The Mayo Report didnt go far enough, i feel, into describing the diagnostics or demographics. for example

quote:

Demographics
Although sadistic sexual fantasies often begin in the person's childhood, the onset of active sexual sadism typically occurs during early adult life. When actual sadistic behavior begins, it will often continue on a chronic course for people with this disorder, especially if they do not seek help.

Sexual sadism with consenting partners is much more common than with nonconsensual partners. When consenting partners are involved, the sadist and the masochist may be either male or female. When non-consenting partners are involved, the sadist is almost always a male.

Sadomasochism involving consenting partners is not considered rare or unusual in the United States. It often occurs outside of the realm of a mental disorder. Fewer people consider themselves sadistic than masochistic.


and the diagnosis criteria

quote:

DSM-IV-TR criteria for sexual sadism include recurrent intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving real acts in which another person is suffering psychological or physical suffering, pain, and humiliation. The victim's suffering, pain, and humiliation cause the person with sexual sadism to become aroused. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors must be present for at least six months.

The diagnostic criteria also require either that the person has acted on these urges or fantasies with a nonconsenting person, or that the person has experienced noticeable distress or interpersonal problems because of these urges or fantasies.

Sexual sadism must be differentiated from normal sexual arousal, behavior, and experimentation. Some forms of mild aggression, such as "love bites" or scratching, are within the range of normal behavior during sexual intercourse. Sadism should also be differentiated from sadomasochistic behavior that involves only mild pain and/or the simulation of more dangerous pain. When these factors are present, a diagnosis of sexual sadism is not necessarily warranted.

Other mental disorders, such as the psychotic disorders, may include elements of sadism or other paraphilias. For example, patients with psychotic symptoms may perform sadistic acts for reasons other than sexual excitement. In these cases, an additional diagnosis of sexual sadism is not warranted.

Persons diagnosed with sexual sadism may have other sexual disorders or paraphilias. Some individuals, especially males, have diagnoses of both sexual sadism and sexual masochism.


http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

well wishes Master

tazzy


Greetings tazzy

In reply to your recent entry I have emailed you various links for you to explore. Hopefully in reading them you will be able to arrive at your own answer to what you presented.
quote:

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

Further understand that I elected to send links via email as the quanity of them are rather extensive. I was not sure of the extent of links that are permitted here in a reply. I did not care to violate any rule of Tos or otherwise.

Again, I appreciate your valuable contribution to this topic.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar~




Thank you for the links, Master. They are quite informative. was a great read with breakfast this morning! ~smiles

There are things that stood out while i read. im posting what stood out to me in hopes of opening this up further for discussion.

.
quote:

Some amount of sadism and masochism is commonly play-acted in healthy sexual relationships, and mutually compatible partners often seek one another out. For example, the use of silk handkerchiefs for simulated bondage and mild spanking during sexual activity are common practices between consenting partners and are not considered sadomasochistic


http://www.depression-guide.com/sexual-sadism.htm

is this source saying there are degrees which are acceptable and which are not?

quote:

Definition of Sexual sadism
Sexual sadism: Individuals with sexual sadism disorder have persistent fantasies in which sexual excitement results from inflicting psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation and terror) on a sexual partner. This disorder is different from minor acts of aggression in normal sexual activity; for example, rough sex. In some cases, sexual sadists are able to find willing partners to participate in the sadistic activities.


http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=46417

and again this one also seems to be saying the same thing. oddly when i clicked on the link for normal sexual activity, it gave me the following definition below. i find that rather confusing Master

quote:

Definition of Frotteurism
Frotteurism: Frotteurism is a problem where the focus of the person's sexual urges is related to touching or rubbing his genitals against the body of a non-consenting, unfamiliar person. In most cases of frotteurism, a male rubs his genital area against a female, often in a crowded public location. This disorder also is a problem because the contact made with the other person is illegal.


http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=46414

so i kept reading.

quote:

Manifestation:
--Types of Sexual Sadism:
Krafft-Ebing (1886/1965) sub-classified sexual sadism into several categories including:

1.Lust-murder. Here he included cases in which there was a connection between sexual arousal and killing which may extend to anthropaphagy or cannibalism (eating body parts of the victim). Among examples he included "Jack the Ripper" and similar types of homicide
2.Mutilation of corpses or necrophilia
3.Injury to females (stabbing, flagellation etc.,)
4.Defilement of women
5.Other kinds of assaults on women - symbolic sadism in which, for example, the perpetrator cuts the hair of his victim rather than harming them directly
6.Ideal sadism or sadistic fantasies alone without acts
7.Sadism with other objects, for example, whipping of boys
8.Sadistic acts with animals
Those eight basic types can be roughly categorized into two main groups of Sexual sadism: Mild sadism in a consensual sexual relationship (eg. S&M) and the major category involving injury or worse, usually in a non-consensual relationship. In both, the element of pain to the victim is the sexual stimulus.


http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/sadism.htm

Now, to me, this is saying it doesnt matter what form, its still sexual sadism. im rather confused at this point. Even the experts seem to be having trouble deciding when its healthy and when its not Master.

The last one is a book.. and.. its powerful... but, in my opinion, not truly germaine to the discussion.

http://books.google.com/books?id=R0lnSJZrHJUC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=when+is+sexual+sadism+appropiate%3F&source=bl&ots=WZaL4pVIF1&sig=xRFR4f-Uk20C4m5jvZOLThw0i74&hl=en&ei=0phySvubK4bYsgPrrfXaCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12#v=onepage&q=&f=false

This book is about an incestuous relationship that has an underlying sadistic theme to their "encounters". There are too many issues within thier dynamic to be able to utilize it to any degree within this discussion, in my opinion, Master. They are both sadistic and masochistic and could be the result of their sexual relationship and the guilt associated with it as well as the males past rape, which im sure had at least a part in his decisions.


again, im seeking a common understanding of when its normal and when its abnormal. perhaps thats the problem so many are having, Master. consent of a willing participant seems to be, in part, a deciding factor. many of the available links are around the time the Gor books were written... some even predate the series.

A much more current article, from the Merck Manual, Last full review/revision November 2007 by George R. Brown, MD

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec07/ch104/ch104c.html

quote:

Sexual Masochism and Sadism

Sexual masochism involves acts in which a person experiences sexual excitement from being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise abused. Sexual sadism involves acts in which a person experiences sexual excitement from inflicting physical or psychologic suffering on another person.

Some amount of sadism and masochism is commonly play-acted in healthy sexual relationships, and mutually compatible partners often seek one another out. For example, the use of silk handkerchiefs for simulated bondage and mild spanking during sexual activity are common practices between consenting partners and are not considered sadomasochistic.

Most sadists interact with a consenting partner (who may have sexual masochism). In these relationships, the humiliation and beating are simply acted out, with participants knowing that it is a game and carefully avoiding actual humiliation or injury. Fantasies of total control and dominance are often important, and sadists may bind and gag their partner in elaborate ways.

In contrast, the disorder of sexual masochism or of sexual sadism takes these acts to an extreme or involves nonconsenting victims (and thus constitutes a crime). Some acts result in severe bodily or psychologic harm and even death. For example, masochistic sexual activity may involve asphyxiophilia, in which the person is partially choked or strangled (by a partner or by self-application of a noose around the neck). A temporary decrease in oxygen to the brain at the point of orgasm is sought as an enhancement to sexual release, but the practice may accidentally result in death.

Treatment of masochism and sadism is usually ineffective.


It is often fascinating to me to see the differences over the years between studies and books by leading Scientists, Psychologists and Counselors in the field of sexuality. Defining extreme, beyond the need to seek medical attention or death, seems to be particularly difficult, at least when it comes to gaining a consensus.

Thank you again, Master, for the morning brain food!

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 4:10:51 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
Greetings tazzy:

In reading your entry it appears that you have questions about the links that I sent. I have no issues with the fact that you have questions. It is one path to learning. However as I stated before, I do again, that I had hoped you find your own answers to when the line is crossed from consensual sadism to violent sadism.

As I indicated in prior entries I fully value your input. Yet am no longer willing to discuss the topic of violent sadism as it was not the intent or goal of the original topic of this thread. I had presented questions pertaining to a gorean framework that I wished to discuss.

It is perfectly acceptable for folks to have their opinions on the topic either in disagreement or agreement. I simply had hoped for a fruitful discussion on “ What defines a gorean framework?”

Although you appear to be a great thinker, which I most readily appreciate and value, I have given all the effort I am willing to give at this point in attempting to discuss a subject that has produced a level of fruitlessness overall in this thread.

Understand I am in no way dismissing you or your contribution. I am simply being forthright. On the other side of the coin if you would like to present what you think is included in a gorean framework then I welcome this.

So it goes some harvesting of our efforts produce fruit and some don’t. Such is life.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/31/2009 5:34:00 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
greetings Master

thank you for the compliment

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/1/2009 2:52:59 AM   
kiani


Posts: 24
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly:
I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly:
I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~





greetings Master Zevar:

It is was not until now that kiani has been able to sign online to read more of this thread. She is unwinding from a long late night shift and was allowed to read the replies You posted, Master.

She is but a slave as You know Master. She is learning when to speak and how to speak under the guidance of Master Darien as You know. She thanks You for taking the time to speak with Master Darien and she. The conversation was “elevating” as Master Darien told You during the conversation. This girl was so humbly grateful that Master Darien allowed her to speak with You and He. She has learned much more about a “gorean framework” than she knew was possible. (softly smiles)

It is sad to this girl that she and other slaves have had to endured what is not in a “gorean framework” and has pledged in her slave heart to stay close to the side of Master Darien and men as You, Master. Not that there aren’t other gorean men that are good men, she just needs to trust and obey as Master Darien spoke of so she does not get herself all enthralled with another “charmer” who has no real substance of integrity.

When she was reading the postings in this thread she was thinking of how it is sort of common here in this forum that the “unknown” gorean men are ignored and dismissed when they speak about a subject that is not popular to speak about. Your words have brought this girl to her knees in tears to witness a brave man to speak His mind even though He had “swords” from every side opposing His courage to stand up and say it like it is.

Master as You know Master Darien is a strong and very good man. She adores His ways. She respects Him for also standing up and being strong in His own way also. She does not understand why no one can seem to understand that violence is not what inspires a slave. She thinks You were only trying to sort the “grain from the rocks” as Master Darien spoke of when speaking with You about “What defines a gorean framework?” Master Darien helped His girl to understand and accept the dichotomy that comes with speaking “against the grain” as she is learning to wrap her thinking around many new concepts.

She knows she is but a slave and has no real place in defining what any of the Free think of how they live out their understanding of living a “gorean framework” or “lifestyle.” Somehow though Master she just does not get why some men and not only gorean men, that she has served, does not understand the simplicity of separating violence from sadism in a “gorean framework” does not reduce their manhood in any way. She thinks this is what You meant? That violent sadism has no place in a gorean framework that is acted out in a way that is intertwined or manipulated to be guised as “natural” non violent acts of “consensual sadism” when in fact they are not.

She also humbly thanks You for being willing to take the time to not only speak with her in a patient way that is admirable and then to not back down from opposition but also the fact that You and Master Darien have shown this girl that there are men who she can respect, serve and do so with much delight.

There is nothing to compare to feeling safe among strong men and knowing that a girl will not be harmed or taken advantage of. She recalls all too much how it was “hammered and beaten” into her and told that her not liking to be treated in a “sadistic violent” way was due to her impaired thinking because she is slave and does not understand a “gorean framework” or anything gorean as she is but “mindless human property.”

This girl refuses to ever check her thinking at the door again. There is so much more she is learning under Master Darien. As You know Master she is a willing and humble slave among safe strong men as Master Darien and Yourself.

She hopes she has not gone off topic. If she has forgive her foolishness. She feels so much tonight and will go be quiet and journal her feelings and thoughts. She looks forward to meeting with You, Master as does Master Darien. She is counting the days. (giggles) Maybe You can persuade Master Darien to become Internet suave?

she wishes A/all well,
kiani

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/1/2009 9:18:38 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Greetings to the Free

may i ask what gorean framework has been deemed acceptable? to me, a the gorean framework i am held in is the one Master has established... no more.. no less.. violent sadism? hmmm.. hamstringing would be one.. and often spoke about in the books... would that constitute violent sadism? grabbing a girl by her hair and yanking her head back to look into her eyes... another act of violent sadism? switching a slave because she lied or stole... yet another? shove a slave into a cage for the night... yet another?

yet, all these things were in the books. of course some are tempered by the society we live in. but if i lie to Master, beyond knowing that i have disappointed him and went against my own promise not to lie, if he decided to cane me, i would expect to be caned, and expect it to hurt. would that turn him on sexually? not at all. but what if it did?

i too had an abusive relationship, many years ago, when i was first starting out. shackled, beaten, left bruised and scarred. yes, many girls here know the difference between violence because a man is out of control, and a man wanting to take delight in what arouses him.

for example, one man i served enjoyed certain oral delights. one night he was playing with a cane, just swinging it, when i got home. he commanded me to his feet immediately, and gave the command to begin. well, being a cock hungry slut, of course i obeyed, and with delight! seeing he was in a teasing mood.. i started.. then stopped.. then restarted.. then stopped again. laughingly he started swatting me with the cane, tapping my bottom. it was in good fun! then i started pleasuring him again.. and something just hit... it went from teasing to devouring! and my bottom was well bruised for a week. the guilt the man felt was visible when he discovered. he isnt violently sadistic. he realized that it turned me on! after that, on occassion when i had truly pleased him, he would repeat the experience.

yet, once, he spanked me with a belt because i absolutely refused to do something he wanted me to do, nonsexually. three swats had me crying hysterically and him angry at me. you would think a woman who could handle a caning would handle a spanking with a belt. his disappointment was palpable, he was upset, but he did not strike in anger. man, no one withholds his emotions more than that man. with my first sob he was done, curled the belt up beside me, commanded me to put it away and go to bed. the incident was never mentioned again. i never refused him again either.

now, please, explain to me how that is violently sadistic to give a girl pleasure? if i had not enjoyed it, he would not have continued. with the understanding that this is not everyone's idea of pleasure.. it was ours. no different than being bitten on the nipples... which i dont like... bite my neck and... wow.

kiani,

it sounds like you were abused, and im truly sorry that happened to you. however, it appears you are coloring all men here with the same brush stroke. i have met a few of the men who post here on the boards. all of them were wonderful men. charming indeed, strong and calm. then again, i did nothing to invoke their anger.

i totally understand if you are the kind of man, or woman, who does not enjoy these sorts of things. i would find it oddly disturbing that you would seek someone out that would. which is why i always knew that my only decision in my slavery was from whom i would beg collar. we can blame everything around us.. yet.. in the end.. the decision was ours. we chose such men... and we failed ourselves in the process. so we get up, brush ourselves off, and leave. you must accept your own part in your life. unless you were kidnapped and held against your will, you chose that situation. we all learn by our mistakes, and hope we make better choices the next time.

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kiani)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/2/2009 12:38:28 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
Greetings kiani:

Regarding your understanding of what I was basically saying is correct to a degree. As you recall Darien and I discussed this topic "What defines a gorean framework?" along with the many differences of perceptions regarding a gorean framework. The common denominators that Darien and I have do nothing to disallow for respect of each other. Nor does our mutual respect disallow for other men to be disrepected. If a any other man has a different view of a gorean framework this would not change our respect toward each other, man to man. When you sit down with a man and look into his eyes, shake his hand and witness his demeanor this says much. Although Darien and I agree that sadistic violence has NO place in a gorean framework this does not mean, as he and I both helped you see, that there are not other gorean men who are good men and that some men in general who will never acknowledgment that sadism that turns violent is unacceptable, gorean or not.

Further the differences between consensual sadism and violent sadism and or perceived consensual sadism that then turns violent over a progressive duration are vastly different. For a man to daily brutally beat a girl is NOT ever her fault or failure. Nor does it have anything to do with being an absolute element in a gorean framework. Nor is it the fault or failure of a slave for trusting a man based on his failed integrity that he has tarnished with his actions. A girl has NO way of reading his mind and knowing he is NOT a good man based on his deceptive lies.

There is also a difference in being “charming” in a manner that is characteristically and psychologically sound, evident of showing or encouraging moral or psychological soundness as opposed to a "charming" that is acted out in a deceptive manner. The motives being the differences. Never blame yourself for the violent brutal actions of a man that ,for the record, eventually were found out to be none other than an imposter of a man posing as a good man to get the trust of an unsuspecting female. A girl has NO power to will a man into brutally beating her. He is the man and he is the only one who can control his temper and his anger.

Also understand that there is no question whatsoever that you do not take responsibility for your choice of men or actions as slave. Difference being your choice in a man who turns out to be violent is not your fault. It is only your responsibility to get the hell out instead of getting the life beat out of you, which you did. Done deal. Buried past and never again eh girl! Darien and I spoke of the defining lines around this issue. I only hope to encourage you to not look back. I also know that you sharing your story briefly was with a pure motive, as does Darien. The situation you described here to total strangers as Darien said so eloquently has no bearing on your character at all. I wanted to make sure to say this to you here.

Basically it all comes down to your future with Dairen. He has your best interest as do I which is agreed. At this time he alone will guide you into what is right for you to become all you can be as he deems safe and sure. He is as you know a good man. Also know that thread “What defines a gorean framework?” has not been discussed in the depths that it could have been nor was it discussed as Dairen and I did when we met to speak. So precious kiani girl just “remember” “What defines a gorean framework?“ that will see you through, as Darien said in his dry humor-jokingly way. Good entry!

btw --I too am looking forward to our meeting again also. Darien and his girl is always welcome. Best regards to Darien....Serve Him well.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/2/2009 12:46:10 AM >

(in reply to kiani)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/2/2009 11:38:28 PM   
kiani


Posts: 24
Status: offline
greetings tazzy

kiani has read the reply of yours tazzy. kiani is now allowed time to spend on this to answer your reply to the entry kiani said to Master Zevar. IMO this girl found your post sounding accusatory for those finding themselves in an abusive domestic violent relationship. It also appears that you are justifying violent criminal acts on women in saying the following:

quote:

the decision was ours. we chose such men... and we failed ourselves in the process. so we get up, brush ourselves off, and leave. you must accept your own part in your life. unless you were kidnapped and held against your will, you chose that situation. we all learn by our mistakes, and hope we make better choices the next time.


Seems like you are confusing the issues, minimizing the trauma many woman go through and at the same time condoning the violent behaviors of many males towards females. Just you are clear tazzy , kiani does not see all men as abusers. Nor is her ability clouded to know the difference between consensual and forced sadism. Can you say the same? Nor do she “paintbrush all men as abusers; What about your “empty canvas“, are you working with clear colors and clean brushes?

kiani was an abuse victim who became this because kiani had vowed to love, honor and obey until death do us part. Kiani left with nothing because it was a matter of choose between living and or death. Was it my mistake for his choices? Hell NO! Question is: Are you saying kiani is to blame for his choices? Are you in denial tazzy?

All those who are at this very moment silence isolated victims are not isolated due to choosing a man who she knows is abusive will harm her and then she “ jumps right in” and begs to be abused.

What would you would tell another woman when she finds herself cold, bruised and alone holding her little one’s tear stained faces in a roach infested seedy motel afraid he will find her and kill them all because he thinks himself to be an all powerful “gorean master“ who includes in his “gorean framework” whatever he says goes, including beating the daylights out of females?

Some women might very well not be one of the lucky ones that who could get out with her children Many find themselves abused not by there choosing who would abuse them but have to flee to preserve their lives? You would say to her, what again?

quote:

get up, brush ourselves off you chose that situation. we all learn by our mistakes, and hope we make better choices the next time


kiani believes that so called “ counsel” to be a twisted rendition of what to say to a woman who has just left her abuser or left many years past, professionally speaking there is so much wrong with that approach tazzy.

kiani finds her role as a female and slave one of great honor. As a female kiani is complete in her submission. This is who kiani is as a female and complete in the female gender role that contributes to affixing and defining kiani in a Master/slave relationship.

Without a doubt kiani recognizes, the disparity between mastery in a ‘gorean framework” and crude or barbaric behaviors acting out in physical and mental sadistic violent way. Mastery is one thing, sadistic violence is another. Consent does not equal abuse. Nor does abuse define consent.

To be clear consent and abuse are defined as follows:

Consent
1. give permission: to give formal permission for something to happen
2. agree: to agree to do something
3 permission for something: acceptance of or agreement to something proposed or desired by another
4 consensus: agreement on an opinion or course of action

Abuse is defined

1 maltreatment: the physical, psychological, or sexual maltreatment of a person or animal
2. improper use: the illegal, improper, or harmful use of something
3. improper practice: an illegal, improper, or harmful practice - human rights abuses

IMO You may find the following a good read.

Violent Behavior is an Abuser's Choice


Reasons we know an abuser's behaviors are not about anger and rage:

*He does not batter other individuals - the boss who does not give him time off or the gas station attendant that spills gas down the side of his car. He waits until there are no witnesses and abuses the person he says he loves.

*If you ask an abused woman, "can he stop when the phone rings or the police come to the door?" She will say "yes". Most often when the police show up, he is looking calm, cool and collected and she is the one who may look hysterical. If he were truly "out of control" he would not be able to stop himself when it is to his advantage to do so.

*
The abuser very often escalates from pushing and shoving to hitting in places where the bruises and marks will not show. If he were "out of control" or "in a rage" he would not be able to direct or limit where his kicks or punches land.
Source: Mid-Valley Women's Crisis Service http://www.mvwcs.com/

Explain how a “gorean framework” includes violent sadism that becomes progressively more dangerous as it is acted on a “slave” who is deemed “human property” further you propose that it is believed that this kind of violent sadism is acceptable because as a female she chooses this? Sure seems you just wanted to blame and shame any female who has survived abuse. Tazzy you missed the whole point of this thread “What defines a gorean framework?”

Surely looks like you passively pretend to be discussing this topic when really only lending your input with sarcastic tones and an underlying message that in a “gorean framework“ it is acceptable for a man to enforce his will in a way that is really defined as abuse and not a “gorean framework” at all.

kiani disagrees that sadistic violence is needed in a “gorean framework” for a man to be an effectively strong and confident man. Never tazzy is abuse or violent sadism in a “gorean framework” or not the fault of a female, never.

NOTE: Thank You again, Master Zevar for this superbly written thread . “ What defines a gorean framework” kiani does appreciate an intelligent man who is brave in the face of opposition.

she wishes A/all well,
kiani

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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