quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

greetings Master Zevar

im not exactly sure what you are referring too. hopefully you will indulge a few questions.

are you saying that for someone to be sadistic, they are out of control or are angry?

is a sadistic act seen as an act of violence to you?

the site you offered is well written, of course, to the standards of Mayo clinic, which i hold in high regard. having said that, Master, do you believe they are the best to diagnose a lifestyle that isnt mainstream?

thank you in advance Master

well wishes

tazzy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
On another note, if you or anyone seriously is interested in calmly discussing the topic of this thread without mud slinging then present your thoughts for discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
The question remains: What defines a gorean framework ? Does it include violent sadistic behavior toward the women who are in the life a man to provide whatever is needed for the well-being of any woman who is dependent on a man?

Since you seem to have missed it completely, here is where I already discussed this topic, as did many others....except you.... o,O

Happy reading!

~Kimveri

quote:

Demographics
Although sadistic sexual fantasies often begin in the person's childhood, the onset of active sexual sadism typically occurs during early adult life. When actual sadistic behavior begins, it will often continue on a chronic course for people with this disorder, especially if they do not seek help.

Sexual sadism with consenting partners is much more common than with nonconsensual partners. When consenting partners are involved, the sadist and the masochist may be either male or female. When non-consenting partners are involved, the sadist is almost always a male.

Sadomasochism involving consenting partners is not considered rare or unusual in the United States. It often occurs outside of the realm of a mental disorder. Fewer people consider themselves sadistic than masochistic.

quote:

DSM-IV-TR criteria for sexual sadism include recurrent intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving real acts in which another person is suffering psychological or physical suffering, pain, and humiliation. The victim's suffering, pain, and humiliation cause the person with sexual sadism to become aroused. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors must be present for at least six months.

The diagnostic criteria also require either that the person has acted on these urges or fantasies with a nonconsenting person, or that the person has experienced noticeable distress or interpersonal problems because of these urges or fantasies.

Sexual sadism must be differentiated from normal sexual arousal, behavior, and experimentation. Some forms of mild aggression, such as "love bites" or scratching, are within the range of normal behavior during sexual intercourse. Sadism should also be differentiated from sadomasochistic behavior that involves only mild pain and/or the simulation of more dangerous pain. When these factors are present, a diagnosis of sexual sadism is not necessarily warranted.

Other mental disorders, such as the psychotic disorders, may include elements of sadism or other paraphilias. For example, patients with psychotic symptoms may perform sadistic acts for reasons other than sexual excitement. In these cases, an additional diagnosis of sexual sadism is not warranted.

Persons diagnosed with sexual sadism may have other sexual disorders or paraphilias. Some individuals, especially males, have diagnoses of both sexual sadism and sexual masochism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

<quote>
In closing:

1] Why does a free man or free woman need to resort to violence or being sadistic if he or she is in total control of self first?

2] Does not our innate freedom come with the expectation to maintain self control with yourself first which naturally fosters responsibility and accountability in a gorean framework?

The results gained by managing self control is not anything that I would exchange for the results of acting out violent sadistic behavior on a trusting female, slave or free woman for the record.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~
</quote>

1). you try to glue two rather disparate notions into one, sadistic behavior does not equal violence.  Nevertheless; an example of a violent person with great self control might be someone in a war.
2). innate freedom only comes with lassize faire, otherwise you wouldn't need cops or courts.

Well, you are all set, and no one seeks your exchange.

Ron  

Greetings Ron:

quote:

1.) you try to glue two rather disparate notions into one, sadistic behavior does not equal violence.

Answer: http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

quote:

Nevertheless; an example of a violent person with great self control might be someone in a war.

Answer: When a man goes to war he does so with the understanding that his enlistment does include to protect against foreign enemies and in doing so he will use methods of combat to reinforce his allegiance to his country which will include violence among other tactics, etc.. His self control is utilized in a much different manner than would be required when he relates with a female. Clearly relating with a female does not include the need to “protect” by use of any form of sadistic violent force directed at her. Thus self control in this reference is required to be demonstrated in a manner that is consistently stable and long term, daily. Which equals a protection that is safe, lacking evidence of any form of sadism that is in fact violent and never needed to relate with a female, regardless of her “status” be she slave or free woman.

quote:

2). innate freedom only comes with lassize faire, otherwise you wouldn't need cops or courts.

Answer:

Innate –adjective

1. existing in one from birth; inborn; native: innate musical talent.
2. inherent in the essential character of something: an innate defect in the hypothesis.
3. originating in or arising from the intellect or the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience: an innate knowledge of good and evil.

Free will is innate thus equals freedom or rather innate freedom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Well, you are all set, and no one seeks your exchange.

Congratulations! I did not know you were the already or perhaps recently voted in as the “online spokesman” for everyone Thanks for the information that "you are all set" and lets us not forget the most inportant information of the day.... “ no one seeks your exchange.”

Just think…hmm

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie

great post Zevar
But as always mention extreme Sadism on a thread and most of the regulars avoid it like the plague and others will just add sarcasm and jibes and insults.

I think it comes down to the old saying to each there own and to live life to the best of your abilitys what you believe to be true and leave those who believe in a different path to live that type of lifestyle.

well wishes

Mitzie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly: I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly: I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Greetings Master

Thank you for your response. i think the problem i am having with this is because of consent, perhaps the idea that its always with a lack of control, and that some may consider this abnormal, not that anyone would consider it normal.

so, i went on a search, and this is what i discovered. The Mayo Report didnt go far enough, i feel, into describing the diagnostics or demographics. for example

quote:

Demographics
Although sadistic sexual fantasies often begin in the person's childhood, the onset of active sexual sadism typically occurs during early adult life. When actual sadistic behavior begins, it will often continue on a chronic course for people with this disorder, especially if they do not seek help.

Sexual sadism with consenting partners is much more common than with nonconsensual partners. When consenting partners are involved, the sadist and the masochist may be either male or female. When non-consenting partners are involved, the sadist is almost always a male.

Sadomasochism involving consenting partners is not considered rare or unusual in the United States. It often occurs outside of the realm of a mental disorder. Fewer people consider themselves sadistic than masochistic.

and the diagnosis criteria

quote:

DSM-IV-TR criteria for sexual sadism include recurrent intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving real acts in which another person is suffering psychological or physical suffering, pain, and humiliation. The victim's suffering, pain, and humiliation cause the person with sexual sadism to become aroused. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors must be present for at least six months.

The diagnostic criteria also require either that the person has acted on these urges or fantasies with a nonconsenting person, or that the person has experienced noticeable distress or interpersonal problems because of these urges or fantasies.

Sexual sadism must be differentiated from normal sexual arousal, behavior, and experimentation. Some forms of mild aggression, such as "love bites" or scratching, are within the range of normal behavior during sexual intercourse. Sadism should also be differentiated from sadomasochistic behavior that involves only mild pain and/or the simulation of more dangerous pain. When these factors are present, a diagnosis of sexual sadism is not necessarily warranted.

Other mental disorders, such as the psychotic disorders, may include elements of sadism or other paraphilias. For example, patients with psychotic symptoms may perform sadistic acts for reasons other than sexual excitement. In these cases, an additional diagnosis of sexual sadism is not warranted.

Persons diagnosed with sexual sadism may have other sexual disorders or paraphilias. Some individuals, especially males, have diagnoses of both sexual sadism and sexual masochism.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

well wishes Master

tazzy

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly: I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly: I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~

Greetings Zevar

Was this whole thing a thinly veiled around about pat on the back for you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Personally, there isn't a great deal of room for it in my life.......

Nor in my life, precisely so.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

Greetings Zevar


It would be way too long and fruitless for me to discuss this. The way you put sadistic violence together with Gorean as if they are interchangeable is why I am going to leave this one alone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Although the analysis in the link provided herein below "The Sexual Aim of Sadism Manifested in Acts of Violence., H.W. Van Ophuijsen " does not directly address a gorean framework, neither does it exclude a gorean framework by mention or presenting facts. It does though mention how the sexual aim of sadism is manifested in acts of violence and the contributing factors that are in most instances relevant with all acts of sadism which are categorically violent.

~Zevar~[/font][/size]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Greetings Master

Thank you for your response. i think the problem i am having with this is because of consent, perhaps the idea that its always with a lack of control, and that some may consider this abnormal, not that anyone would consider it normal.

so, i went on a search, and this is what i discovered. The Mayo Report didnt go far enough, i feel, into describing the diagnostics or demographics. for example

quote:

Demographics
Although sadistic sexual fantasies often begin in the person's childhood, the onset of active sexual sadism typically occurs during early adult life. When actual sadistic behavior begins, it will often continue on a chronic course for people with this disorder, especially if they do not seek help.

Sexual sadism with consenting partners is much more common than with nonconsensual partners. When consenting partners are involved, the sadist and the masochist may be either male or female. When non-consenting partners are involved, the sadist is almost always a male.

Sadomasochism involving consenting partners is not considered rare or unusual in the United States. It often occurs outside of the realm of a mental disorder. Fewer people consider themselves sadistic than masochistic.

and the diagnosis criteria

quote:

DSM-IV-TR criteria for sexual sadism include recurrent intense sexual fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving real acts in which another person is suffering psychological or physical suffering, pain, and humiliation. The victim's suffering, pain, and humiliation cause the person with sexual sadism to become aroused. The fantasies, urges, or behaviors must be present for at least six months.

The diagnostic criteria also require either that the person has acted on these urges or fantasies with a nonconsenting person, or that the person has experienced noticeable distress or interpersonal problems because of these urges or fantasies.

Sexual sadism must be differentiated from normal sexual arousal, behavior, and experimentation. Some forms of mild aggression, such as "love bites" or scratching, are within the range of normal behavior during sexual intercourse. Sadism should also be differentiated from sadomasochistic behavior that involves only mild pain and/or the simulation of more dangerous pain. When these factors are present, a diagnosis of sexual sadism is not necessarily warranted.

Other mental disorders, such as the psychotic disorders, may include elements of sadism or other paraphilias. For example, patients with psychotic symptoms may perform sadistic acts for reasons other than sexual excitement. In these cases, an additional diagnosis of sexual sadism is not warranted.

Persons diagnosed with sexual sadism may have other sexual disorders or paraphilias. Some individuals, especially males, have diagnoses of both sexual sadism and sexual masochism.

http://www.minddisorders.com/Py-Z/Sexual-sadism.html

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

well wishes Master

tazzy

Greetings tazzy

In reply to your recent entry I have emailed you various links for you to explore. Hopefully in reading them you will be able to arrive at your own answer to what you presented.

quote:

im not trying to question you, Master, just trying to get a feel for when the normal ends and the abnormal begins.

Further understand that I elected to send links via email as the quanity of them are rather extensive. I was not sure of the extent of links that are permitted here in a reply. I did not care to violate any rule of Tos or otherwise.

Again, I appreciate your valuable contribution to this topic.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar~

quote:

Some amount of sadism and masochism is commonly play-acted in healthy sexual relationships, and mutually compatible partners often seek one another out. For example, the use of silk handkerchiefs for simulated bondage and mild spanking during sexual activity are common practices between consenting partners and are not considered sadomasochistic

quote:

Definition of Sexual sadism
Sexual sadism: Individuals with sexual sadism disorder have persistent fantasies in which sexual excitement results from inflicting psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation and terror) on a sexual partner. This disorder is different from minor acts of aggression in normal sexual activity; for example, rough sex. In some cases, sexual sadists are able to find willing partners to participate in the sadistic activities.

quote:

Definition of Frotteurism
Frotteurism: Frotteurism is a problem where the focus of the person's sexual urges is related to touching or rubbing his genitals against the body of a non-consenting, unfamiliar person. In most cases of frotteurism, a male rubs his genital area against a female, often in a crowded public location. This disorder also is a problem because the contact made with the other person is illegal.

quote:

Manifestation:
--Types of Sexual Sadism:
Krafft-Ebing (1886/1965) sub-classified sexual sadism into several categories including:

1.Lust-murder. Here he included cases in which there was a connection between sexual arousal and killing which may extend to anthropaphagy or cannibalism (eating body parts of the victim). Among examples he included "Jack the Ripper" and similar types of homicide
2.Mutilation of corpses or necrophilia
3.Injury to females (stabbing, flagellation etc.,)
4.Defilement of women
5.Other kinds of assaults on women - symbolic sadism in which, for example, the perpetrator cuts the hair of his victim rather than harming them directly
6.Ideal sadism or sadistic fantasies alone without acts
7.Sadism with other objects, for example, whipping of boys
8.Sadistic acts with animals
Those eight basic types can be roughly categorized into two main groups of Sexual sadism: Mild sadism in a consensual sexual relationship (eg. S&M) and the major category involving injury or worse, usually in a non-consensual relationship. In both, the element of pain to the victim is the sexual stimulus.

quote:

Sexual Masochism and Sadism

Sexual masochism involves acts in which a person experiences sexual excitement from being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise abused. Sexual sadism involves acts in which a person experiences sexual excitement from inflicting physical or psychologic suffering on another person.

Some amount of sadism and masochism is commonly play-acted in healthy sexual relationships, and mutually compatible partners often seek one another out. For example, the use of silk handkerchiefs for simulated bondage and mild spanking during sexual activity are common practices between consenting partners and are not considered sadomasochistic.

Most sadists interact with a consenting partner (who may have sexual masochism). In these relationships, the humiliation and beating are simply acted out, with participants knowing that it is a game and carefully avoiding actual humiliation or injury. Fantasies of total control and dominance are often important, and sadists may bind and gag their partner in elaborate ways.

In contrast, the disorder of sexual masochism or of sexual sadism takes these acts to an extreme or involves nonconsenting victims (and thus constitutes a crime). Some acts result in severe bodily or psychologic harm and even death. For example, masochistic sexual activity may involve asphyxiophilia, in which the person is partially choked or strangled (by a partner or by self-application of a noose around the neck). A temporary decrease in oxygen to the brain at the point of orgasm is sought as an enhancement to sexual release, but the practice may accidentally result in death.

Treatment of masochism and sadism is usually ineffective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings kiani:

Wow, what a well though out reply. Understand that I did not add your text from your reply to this reply due to the length of it. I did want to take a moment to thank you for writing a well thought out entry. I do thank the man who inspired you as it sounds like he lit a fire in your belly. IMO

Now to another point; in your entry you mentioned how you served a master who did not treat you in a manner that lacked sadistic violence.

Firstly: I want to tell that it is good you are safe and with a man that does not treat you in this way.

Secondly: I wanted to commend you on your ability to trust again. I am assuming you have found in your current situation that not all men who are gorean identify with the element of sadistic violence in what they might term as a gorean framework.

Thirdly: I support you to continue to not give yourself to any man, gorean or not who does not demonstrate what provides a sense of safety for you.

Fourthly: I found your words to speak from the heart of a “slave” who has learned what it means to serve regardless. Sounds like you endured in an hellish household and served anyway. As you know we live on Earth and in America where the laws, although authored primarily by men, do not exclude any female from the same provisions that any man has within the Laws of the Land.

Fifthly: There is IMO something to be said about the strength and endurance of a female has lived through this sort of hellish sadism that turned violent over time in a progressive manner. Clearly what you described does not define a gorean framework, IMO.

Kudos kiani, Kudos….

I wish you and the man you speak of in your reply well, enough and even more…

~ Zevar~

greetings Master Zevar:

It is was not until now that kiani has been able to sign online to read more of this thread. She is unwinding from a long late night shift and was allowed to read the replies You posted, Master.

She is but a slave as You know Master. She is learning when to speak and how to speak under the guidance of Master Darien as You know. She thanks You for taking the time to speak with Master Darien and she. The conversation was “elevating” as Master Darien told You during the conversation. This girl was so humbly grateful that Master Darien allowed her to speak with You and He. She has learned much more about a “gorean framework” than she knew was possible. (softly smiles)

It is sad to this girl that she and other slaves have had to endured what is not in a “gorean framework” and has pledged in her slave heart to stay close to the side of Master Darien and men as You, Master. Not that there aren’t other gorean men that are good men, she just needs to trust and obey as Master Darien spoke of so she does not get herself all enthralled with another “charmer” who has no real substance of integrity.

When she was reading the postings in this thread she was thinking of how it is sort of common here in this forum that the “unknown” gorean men are ignored and dismissed when they speak about a subject that is not popular to speak about. Your words have brought this girl to her knees in tears to witness a brave man to speak His mind even though He had “swords” from every side opposing His courage to stand up and say it like it is.

Master as You know Master Darien is a strong and very good man. She adores His ways. She respects Him for also standing up and being strong in His own way also. She does not understand why no one can seem to understand that violence is not what inspires a slave. She thinks You were only trying to sort the “grain from the rocks” as Master Darien spoke of when speaking with You about “What defines a gorean framework?” Master Darien helped His girl to understand and accept the dichotomy that comes with speaking “against the grain” as she is learning to wrap her thinking around many new concepts.

She knows she is but a slave and has no real place in defining what any of the Free think of how they live out their understanding of living a “gorean framework” or “lifestyle.” Somehow though Master she just does not get why some men and not only gorean men, that she has served, does not understand the simplicity of separating violence from sadism in a “gorean framework” does not reduce their manhood in any way. She thinks this is what You meant? That violent sadism has no place in a gorean framework that is acted out in a way that is intertwined or manipulated to be guised as “natural” non violent acts of “consensual sadism” when in fact they are not.

She also humbly thanks You for being willing to take the time to not only speak with her in a patient way that is admirable and then to not back down from opposition but also the fact that You and Master Darien have shown this girl that there are men who she can respect, serve and do so with much delight.

There is nothing to compare to feeling safe among strong men and knowing that a girl will not be harmed or taken advantage of. She recalls all too much how it was “hammered and beaten” into her and told that her not liking to be treated in a “sadistic violent” way was due to her impaired thinking because she is slave and does not understand a “gorean framework” or anything gorean as she is but “mindless human property.”

This girl refuses to ever check her thinking at the door again. There is so much more she is learning under Master Darien. As You know Master she is a willing and humble slave among safe strong men as Master Darien and Yourself.

She hopes she has not gone off topic. If she has forgive her foolishness. She feels so much tonight and will go be quiet and journal her feelings and thoughts. She looks forward to meeting with You, Master as does Master Darien. She is counting the days. (giggles) Maybe You can persuade Master Darien to become Internet suave?

she wishes A/all well,
kiani