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What defines a gorean framework? - 7/26/2009 11:06:12 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline 		Greetings:

I have been mulling around the idea of presenting this topic for discussion here in the Gorean Lifestyles Forum. Time has prevented my being able to carve out a time to put these thoughts in the written form for presentation until now. I will begin with the following to then merge into my point of the posting. In the past few weeks I have been rather interestingly observing willing participants and also society at large, which is NOT difficult to accomplish in most any metropolitan city. It came to my attention recently that apparently on the West Coast the overall consensus is that clearly there is a new and radical definition of "manhood" that is slowly integrating into the minds of young men and women.

Point in fact: In a recent assignment the directive was to utilize research, interviewing techniques, assimilation of empirical evidence and then formulate all of my findings regarding this theoretical new definition of gender roles into a written presentation. The outcome was to either disprove or to prove this theory to be factual and not merely a suppositional theory of those who proposed this theory in the field of Human Sexuality and Gender Studies.

The outcome of the ending factual results did support this theory of a new and radical definition of "manhood" that is slowly integrating into the minds of young men and women. Further to be indisputably factual within the set number of participants who were a part of this assignment. As this assignment progressed I became ever more aware of my understanding of gender roles and much more from a gorean framework to be grossly lacking in my final findings.

Furthermore in my findings there was close to only 1% of those who participated in this assignment to demonstrate anything remotely close to how gender roles are defined in a gorean framework. The remaining percentage was related more closely to the outcome of indoctrination of a western culture within a framework that is evident with the radical ideologies of the feminist movement.

Within a gorean framework there is no place in the natural order for the ideology of feminist theory to reign or rule and 100% rightly so! From a personal perspective there was more than enough to disagree with in the findings of the assignment mentioned herein. The outcome generated discussion among collegues. This then led to more in depth introspection and retrospection regarding gender roles. This then led to the obvious for myself which was how a gorean framework is defined for myself. I was solely contributing to the discussion from a gorean framework despite the hostility and opposition that was lavishly dished out from those who relate within a feminist framework.

When it is all said and done the outcome of my choosing to be reflective regarding my personal beliefs only served to reinforce my clearly defined gorean framework and beliefs as a free man to be stronger than steel and more deeply rooted than any depth known to humanity.

I am presenting the following for discussion. I welcome discussion about any or all of the following questions.

1} What defines a gorean framework?

2} Is a gorean framework something that is defined individually for those who are Free or is it defined in another manner and if so how and by whom?

3} How does a gorean framework become integrated into the daily life of the Household of the Free?

4} What about or rather within a gorean framework separates from a non-gorean framework?

5} What role does gorean morality have to do with defining a gorean framework?

6} How does the a defined gorean framework lends itself to the welfare of society?

7} What contributing factors of defined gorean framework contribute to the daily living as a gorean?


“Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson


I wish you well,
~Zevar~













Profile   Post #: 1
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 8:46:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Within a gorean framework there is no place in the natural order for the ideology of feminist theory to reign or rule and 100% rightly so!
 
I am sorta mulling this over and not quite sure I can confirm or deny the veracity of this.  Weren't there Amazon like women in Assassins or Jason or one of those middle books and again later?
 
I belive female domination was practiced according to the series, wasn't terribly wide-spread or agreed with by masterful men types, but it did exist........
 
Personally, there isn't a great deal of room for it in my life........
 
Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 10:41:43 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

I am presenting the following for discussion. I welcome discussion about any or all of the following questions.

1} What defines a gorean framework?

2} Is a gorean framework something that is defined individually for those who are Free or is it defined in another manner and if so how and by whom?

3} How does a gorean framework become integrated into the daily life of the Household of the Free?

4} What about or rather within a gorean framework separates from a non-gorean framework?

5} What role does gorean morality have to do with defining a gorean framework?

6} How does the a defined gorean framework lends itself to the welfare of society?

7} What contributing factors of defined gorean framework contribute to the daily living as a gorean?



I was interested in your studies and findings.  So not being gorean, I would like to address some (or all) of your points, keeping in mind the gorean association of it all, and how I understand it. 
First of all, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'framework'.  I will interpret framework to be 'foundation'.  And hope that doesn't skew the answers.

Secondly, I am not for women liberation at all, but is that because of the economy and women keeping more jobs than men because their cheaper to keep?  Is it survival, or are they truly trying to oppress men?

Regardless...

1)  I would think a gorean framework would be based on personal integrity and truth, mixed with a passion to socialize and live life to its fullest, enjoying the beauty and commeraderie of it all.  I think the lot of them are loyal people, and righteous people.  I think they live and believe firmly in what we (as Americans) think of as classes of people.  (high class, medium class, and low class equating (maybe) to the castes (if easier to associate it with gorean).  Indigent, homeless, the burdens of our society, being the slaves. (no offense, I'm sure the book Goreans didn't see slaves as 'burdens'.

2)  I think every individual, Gorean or not, leads their lives individually.  Thats what makes us all different, and Goreans believed this too.  Of course there are laws and ammendments that set forth what we can and can't do legally.  Given some of the titles of the men who held high positions in certain cities of Gor, goreans had a political base too.  Whether it was as crooked as our is, I don't know.  ;)

3)  I don't think I can answer this question, if I believe Goreans are individuals, abiding by laws and rights afforded to them, based on their class, living their lives according to their goals and ambitions.

4) I think it would depend on the morals of the non-gorean household.  My household for example would be very similar to a Goreans household, I would bet.  Even goreans can have bad morals, as thieves and rogues were goreans too. (I'm not a rogue, though lol)  I think it is the secular points that make it different, and I am not equipped to handle an answer to that question, not being gorean.

5)  I think there are good and bad goreans. There is a ying and a yang to everything.

6)  If you mean a society that is ungorean, I would think a profession, volunteer work in a passion of theirs, anything that they can contribute to, or do from their own, personal desire would contribute to the welfare of society.  Any society.  lol...unless they were all from Port Kar before Bosk got a hold of them.  Then it would be zero contribution and it wouldn't matter to any involved.

7)  I would think in living their beliefs to the best of their ability.  Which is rewarding for anyone who strives to be their best.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Zevar)
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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 6:34:09 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Zevar,

I have to ask: is English your second language?

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 6:37:56 PM   
kiani


Posts: 24
Status: offline 		Greetings Master:

Master it is not common for kiani to post. She has had the day off from her usually long shifts she works and so she had time to read Your most intelligent posting. Also kiani does not usually answer many postings outside of the slave thread that kiani loves to spend time reading and posting in sometimes. kiani did find Your posting to also be very interesting. kiani is adding what she wrote below and does hope that it is not off topic. If it is off topic she does apologize for her ignorance. kiani is new at posting. As kiani mentioned Your thread did interest her and so she wrote the words below.

What has happened to June Clever and the women like her who found true beauty in serving? Is this sort of woman who knows her place in the natural order only found among gorean men who identify with a gorean framework?

More importantly kiani questions what has happened to the world in which they lived, loved and laughed in? The radical ideologies of the feminist movement has scared the face of many women leaving them marred, stealing from them the beauty of submission. Many women find that had they obeyed that could have gained much of what they now see in hindsight that their Father or as for kiani her Daddy did know best as did the women of the past generations of obedient submissive women.

These women being made fools of by these ideologies no longer feel the warmth or beautiful flame which once burned brightly in their belly. Within today's relationships true submission, obedience and servant-hood has all but burned out leaving many to wander in a unguided dark cold world created by a feminist ideology.

kiani remembers a time when as a culture women were clear in our understanding of the true gender role of women expressing true beauty, unlike today. More so kiani is clear that the role of gender of manhood is a unchanging concept among gorean men. She imagines and remembers the strong gorean men who she has served and been owned by when she thinks of manhood. kiani cherishes the fact that she does not aspire to revolting to her femininity that is only completed when she embraces the true freedom found in being owned by a gorean man who would not even consider endangering his masculinity by relinquishing his natural freedom. kiani fully embraces her place in the natural order in relation to strong gorean men. In the 1950's, women were expected to organize and run their homes and not concentrate on working. Surely a woman was not to focus herself on revolting against what was natural. kiani thought of many things when she read the list below.

Below outlines the role of a woman and her duties from " Housekeeping Monthly 13th Issue; 1955

* Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they get home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed.

* Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.

* Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

* Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dust cloth over the tables.

* During the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering to his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

* Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

* Be happy to see him.

* Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

* Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

* Don't greet him with complaints and problems.

* Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through at work.

* Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or lie him down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

* Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

* Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.

* A good wife always knows her place."

kiani thinks with the explosion of the feminist movement in the 1960's and the fact that the pill made premarital sex easier, women started to pull away from traditional roles and venture into the workplace. Naturally women were never meant to venture off leaving traditional roles. With these changes came the on looking eyes of the next generation that looked at who they would become. Namely how they would be molded by this new feminist world.

This new generation of women have lost touch with their natural desire for the enslavement of a servant hearts as a result of adopting what is not natural in the feminist ideology. When confronted with the temptation of tasting of this ideology of so called freedom through revolting against what is natural we not only took one bite of the apple we had to have it all.

These perverted lies have proven to lead weak and silly women off into destruction by falling into this feminist trap at the cost of the next generation of young women doing even worse as women. It has only produced a new generation of frustrated young men and young women not knowing their true and natural manhood or womanhood.

Never knowing full pleasure or deep satisfaction by embracing what is natural in each gender role for a man and his woman/slave is something unfathomable to kiani. She is grateful to not have been caught up in this trap of so called freedom that supposedly comes with trusting the words of a so called feminist lies about womanhood and manhood.

kiani is no expert in the teaching about living as a gorean as she is slave. She knows in her heart that what the world holds out as freedom by selling her soul to the next new feminist ideology and forsaking serving those “brutish big bad gorean men” is not something she could ever do. She is slave and only slave.

Thank You Master for these wonderful thoughts and for Your intelligent way in which you presented ideas. It has helped her to gain more appreciation for all she has come to know as true for her about her femininity amid gorean manhood, more like among those big wonderfully strong uncompromising harsh gorean men that she so naturally loves to serve. (smiles)

Thank You Master. She is so humbly grateful to have been able to write this reply and share it with an intelligent strong gorean man as You, Master.

she wishes A/all well,
kiani

(in reply to Zevar)
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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 7:36:56 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Personally, there isn't a great deal of room for it in my life.......




Nor in my life, precisely so.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 7:40:03 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Zevar,

I have to ask: is English your second language?

Trevelyan



Devo chiedere è inglese la sua seconda lingua?

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/27/2009 7:44:13 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline 		FR:

To those who contributed with well thought out replies I thank you. Anytime a response is contributed in a respectful and at the least non defensive style there can be nothing but appreciation for the time and effort offered.

Until later with more in reply....

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/29/2009 2:25:06 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

FR:

Until later with more in reply....

I wish you well,
~Zevar~


FR:

A definition of a gorean framework can be where a set of ideas or philosophy, principles, or rules provide structure. Also to include shared fundamental traits or ethos: the fundamental and distinctive characteristics of a group, social context and typically expressed in attitudes, habits, and beliefs. All or most of all of a gorean framework can also provide the basis or outline of daily living and interacting with others. In some instances a gorean framework is provided for something intended to be more fully developed at a later stage and or as one learns more and develops daily. This preceding definition is an individual definition and can only be useful for the individual who believes in the defined meaning. Obviously not all definitions of a gorean framework are defined as the same for all.

For example for some in a gorean framework sadism is included to be part of a working definition. What is termed sadism and defined from a “legal” definition is disregarded by some who do practice sadism in a personally defined gorean framework. All too often when confronted with the fact ,that what is practiced, is in essence is “legally” defined as sadism and “illegal” is then disregarded. More than not then there is a tendency to revolt in one way or another and then justify violent sadistic conduct to be included in a gorean framework.

What is “legally “agreed and defined as sadism is the usually deemed flawed and incorrect as the outcome for those who refuse to admit that in reality here on Earth what they are doing and calling it “gorean sadism in a gorean framework“ is really “illegal” violence against women in many instances.

For instance hypothetically speaking if a Law Enforcement Officer or Officers were present overtly or not to witness this kind of so called “sadistic violence” would this so called “gorean man” act this so called “right of being a gorean man” that equates to be violent behavior out if he knew he was being watched by Law Enforcement Officers and would be arrested for his “sadistic violence? ”

More than likely he would aggressively argue for his perceived “rights as a gorean man” as he does when he is the all wise and “save the day” or rather the self appointed “UBAR” in virtual reality and as he does in person among with “gorean peers” as he and his peers act out and condone violence toward “slaves.” Is this suppositional? Accordingly there are reliable sources who disagree.

Further when men who condone sadistic violence hear of other men acting out what is “legally” termed as violence do they say anything to them or do they just look the other way for fear that he will not be considered the “BIG BRUTE” that he likes to see himself as so he can feel secure in his personal manhood and definition of a “gorean framework? Some would and do as their individual definition of a gorean framework does include sadistic violence toward women as “slaves” and are categorized as “human property” among many “gorean men” thus treated less than an animal is treated.

If what is defined in a “gorean framework” that includes “sadistic violence” and is considered perfectly “legally” allowed toward women then why don’t these men who practice sadistic violence who claim to be men of “Truth and Honor” go in the public eye and act out this so called “sadistic violence” and then explain it away or better yet tell the public that this woman that just got pounced on like she is an animal and has passed out from the excruciating pain that she is “human property” and for the public and Law Enforcement to just go about there way ?

In more instances than not those who practice what is termed “sadistic violence” in many clinical studies have proven to have what is defined as a rigid denial system therefore are prone to what is clinically termed “sociopathic personality disorder.” http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/ds00829

People with a “sociopathic personality disorder" make there own rules up and live by them and deem themselves worthy of this or special. They hurt others with no regard. In other gorean frameworks there is a another belief that what is termed as violence toward women to be not violence toward women and only the “right of a free man” to use whatever method he deems as fit to correct or punish a grown/adult woman when she is not pleasing etc to the “free man.”

Obviously again there are those “gorean men” who do use this sort of method in their individual definition of their “gorean framework.” However those who do this sort of “sadistic violent behavior” again when confronted usually defend their “sadistic abusive behavior” fiercely as a “right of true or real manhood” and then relentlessly condemns whoever presents facts to expose this sort of grossly twisted view of “gorean manhood.”

Point in fact more than in one instance I have personally known females who were treated with such harshness and violence by their “master” that when they finally were able to escape his violent household were deeply wounded to the degree of a self hatred that was self destructive which could surely be defined as mysteriously complex or in another term simply unfathomable.

Undoubtedly violence or sadistic behavior is not something to include in a gorean framework. Nor is it something to include in any form of living regardless. Why would anyone who claims to care for another then pervert this care by twisting it into that which wounds not only the body but the mind, heart and soul of a woman? Shun me if you desire. Disagree or not. However never will I ever claim that living as a gorean man includes accepting sadistic violence in a gorean framework nor condoning sadistic violence when it becomes evident in any other man. Truth and Honor demands this and so much more from manhood, gorean or otherwise.

For those who disagree with what I presented I would suggest you might start with self examination before you throw stones at the messenger of that which you disagree with. There are obviously unspoken rules in life and society. Much like there is also here in this forum. Just to name a few of the unspoken rules, There is the silence the stranger among us and ignore him. Do not even post and the stranger will go away. Perhaps these unspoken rules might be more misguided wrongly discerned “gorean tenant” for some here to silence and shun the men who do not agree with the others who were “here long before they were after all.”

OR rather perhaps it is more like if a man has nothing to hide and he lives according to the laws of the land what does he have to disagree with when it comes to refraining from sadistic violence against woman and the exclusion of such from a gorean framework? But then that might not fit the personally defined “gorean framework” of some men.

IMO Undoubtedly manhood nor a gorean framework to be fully executable and functional regardless includes beating women for any reason, whipping them until they bleed and are marked with bruises and wounds, branding their skin, restraining or standing on them or any part of their body until they pass out from excruciating pain, forcing a woman to eat out a dog bowl or any other acts with animals, forcing them to service other men sexually, depriving them of their own financial earnings, refusing to allow them to speak to anyone outside of the household , controlling a woman’s mind to conform her thinking to only serve the sadistic distortions of her “gorean master“ etc., etc..

I have said what a gorean framework includes which I live, believe and espouse. Further I have proposed what a gorean framework is NOT regardless that in doing so lessons the possibilities of proving most feminist theories on manhood and gender violence to be erroneous.

The question remains: What defines a gorean framework ? Does it include violent sadistic behavior toward the women who are in the life a man to provide whatever is needed for the well-being of any woman who is dependent on a man?


Thanks to those who offered their time and efforts to contribute.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

< Message edited by Zevar -- 7/29/2009 2:36:46 AM >

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/29/2009 10:04:42 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Zevar,

Acording to most of the laws in the USA, any striking of another is illegal violence, aka "assault".

So, to be a good little citizen & never, ever break ANY laws, you cannot strike your slavegirl, at all, in ANY fashion, no matter how much she might beg.

In fact, if you live in some states, you cannot LEGALLY 1)have consensual oral or anal sex with her (or anyone else)...2)use any manufactured device (dildo, vibrator, etc.) during the act of consensual sexual intercourse.........

...get the picture yet?

Either you do as you are told, within the boundaries you are granted by the external authority you accept & support.........

OR you live as you please, accepting the consequences of your freely made choices as they come, recognizing only yourself as the ultimate authority & arbiter of what is "right" & "good" for you.

So...proceed with your choice.

~Kimveri

< Message edited by Kimveri -- 7/29/2009 10:05:45 AM >

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/29/2009 10:08:02 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		BTW, you remind me more & more of Eros. Any relation? Are you, by chance, Apache?

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/29/2009 11:33:53 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline 		The question remains: What defines a gorean framework ? Does it include violent sadistic behavior toward the women who are in the life a man to provide whatever is needed for the well-being of any woman who is dependent on a man?


Thanks to those who offered their time and efforts to contribute.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/29/2009 11:51:11 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

BTW, you remind me more & more of Eros. Any relation? Are you, by chance, Apache?



Kimveri:

Think whatever nonsense you want. As you claim..." You get what you accept"

On another note, if you or anyone seriously is interested in calmly discussing the topic of this thread without mud slinging then present your thoughts for discussion.

Other than that as I said, " Think whatever nonsense you want"

BTW you remind me of someone also, does that make you someone you are not? As you claim..." You get what you accept"

I know....an unpopular topic for sure, that is apparently for some.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~


(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/29/2009 7:45:11 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		FR
Howdy Zevar,
In my opinion, the answer to your "question that remains" is quick and easy,

No

Does that mean that some Gorean somewhere couldn't possibly indulge in such behavior?  again the answer is no. How long it would take before the "swords of others" acted to curb his "appetite" would I reckon depend on how large his appetite was, and how open he was in his indulgence of it.

Other folks might have differing opinions, but, if you want to understand how that all fits within the "Gorean Framework" yer prolly gonna have to read the books for yourself.

Be well
Unbuilder


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 5:40:56 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline 		FR:

The purpose of this thread being thwarted by questionable means and methods thereby having the reality plainly spoken of how IMO a “gorean framework” does not includes violent sadistic behavior toward “slaves” who are considered to be “ human property” and treated against their will as less than animals has generated much thought.

Namely in the Books this whole notion of sadism or violence might have worked as on Gor is Science Fiction and let us not forget with Codes only reliable on the fictional planet of Gor. This whole notion of the transference of the Books as depicted in the context of a Science Fiction Series to be lived here on Earth is totally impractical. The Laws, Codes, Statues and U.S. Constitution etc. do NOT allow for a female to be stripped of her legal rights and deemed “human property” , gorean framework or not.

Although as noted in a prior posting that acting out violent sadistic behavior is “illegal’ still no genuine discussion was produced that proved the theory of a gorean framework to not include violet sadistic behavior. Unfortunately and moreover just foolish paranoid comments and inaccuracies were presented, by a few with replies that were insulated with washed out foolish old innuendos that are so very worn out and unproductive. Let us not forget the off topic race based comments about some “Indian man” who apparently believed similarly as I do based on the paranoid comments in a reply.

How foolish to attempt to digress the topic, unsuccessfully I might add. I must question, what did all of that have to do with the topic? So what if others believe similarly and who cares what race they are? I do not. Further what if some man who is “Indian” spoke similarly to my postings then does this discredit myself and or this other man due to race? Does this then condone a gorean framework to include violent sadistic behavior? No, of course not. Seems those comments were meant to digress the conversation and to discredit the points outlined based on an underlying or hidden/unspoken agenda by more than likely those who perhaps act out sadistic behavior in a gorean framework?

Clearly when you voice disagreement with the notion that a gorean framework that includes violent sadistic behavior is NOT perfectly “natural” the outcome is so ridiculously evident of a defensive lashing out due to the facts being brought forth for discussion which seemingly so some would rather “hide in secrecy” than discuss this topic in an honest , calm and rational manner.

I reiterate a point in this thread in that all that is produced when condoning violent sadistic behavior in a gorean framework is being guilty of refusing to speak up and call sadistic violence what it is without backing down. All what is in the Books does not translate here on Earth in a legal manner. However for those who have no regard for the Law of the Land surely can just act out what they deem as “right for them.“ Not only is violent sadistic behavior in a gorean framework or in any form of a relationship” illegal” it does nothing but produce in some situations fractured females which is worse than broken females that are then recycled hopelessly in a redundant dysfunctional pattern, from one “gorean sadist” to the next. According to reliable sources.

Some apparently believe that a gorean framework does include any and all what is desired to be acted out as was acted out in the Science Fiction gorean series/books. What is concerning for some who associate with the term “gorean” is that there are those who have “contaminated” the term with their ardent refusal and disregard to live in accordance with the Law of the Land and NOT act out violent sadistic behavior on trusting females who thrive on submitting and serving. With a gorean master and his slave it is ALL or nothing. She has NO rights, NO safe word, NO consensual contractual rights, NO voice at all, nothing she is deemed “ human property” likened to that of an animal.

The blatant refusal to discuss the topic of this thread as presented speaks volumes without saying a word. Having said that I must question “ Did this thread only get read by those who are “ gorean and a sadist?” Or rather could it be possible that some of those who claim to be “gorean and a sadist” really are living their daily life untreated for a condition known as “sociopathic personality disorder.” http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/ds00829

Accordingly there is substantial evidence when a female is harmed to the degree that she requires medical intervention from an “all or nothing gorean sadist” that the so called theory of sadism to be a functional element in a gorean framework is plainly exposed as dysfunctional. This fellow “goreans” is not what is the “right of a free man or free woman.” No! Instead living here on Earth well you might want conduct a Google search as to what happens to those who think they are above the Law here in Earth. YES! That would be the Laws here on Earth. Not the fictional planet of Gor.

It is clear that it is rare to find other free men who support my position when it comes to how I define a “Gorean Framework” which does not surprise me. Instead it concerns me. Yes that is right, concerns me. You see there are those among us that cross our path in this “gorean path” and when they do find there way into the care of a free man all I can do is hope that anyone who is free does not misuse their power and charm their way into the life of unsuspecting females who live to serve. Surely not to then unashamedly act out with no regard violent sadism and call it a “gorean framework“ or worse, “gorean morality.”

If anyone is wondering why I am so ardent about this then read the following line and you will have a better understanding why. The ardent manner in which I speak about a gorean framework not including sadistic violence is due to my living my manhood and gorean framework daily in all I do to reflect my definition of integrity and morality as I see it. I know many disagree with me. I am not unclear of that. However when a slave is trusting my integrity to be a guiding factor in my actions toward her it is my sole responsibility to not act in a way that would reverse the defining principle of my integrity.

If I violate my word and act out of control by reverting to sadistic violent behavior in the guidance or care for a slave then I would be the only one to blame when she is no longer able to respect me due to my not maintaining my temper and acting accordingly. Else where is my freedom? My freedom to not allow myself to be reduced to a man who acts out of control when in actuality the more effective manner to act would be to reflect my word with my actions in a manner that is strict yet never harsh.

Or it goes without thinking that I would not be trustworthy or a man of integrity. What I am vowed to I live. It is my responsibility to conduct myself in a manner that demonstrates what I believe a gorean framework includes. Again I recognize there is disagreement with my position. There is mutuality when it comes to the disagreement with this topic though IMO. I know there is nothing I could say to change those who disagree with my definition of a gorean framework nor could anyone persuade me to include violent sadistic behavior in my definition of a gorean framework.

Regardless --- Do not placate me and tell me to read the books again. That is an old worn out saying. Safe it for the trash where it belongs. Do not think my unwillingness to be violent or sadistic makes me weak. Do not malign me with words that marginalize me because I speak my morality without apology. I do not care one iota that the books includes this or that. I have read them since the 70’s and my interpretation of them will not ever condone sadistic violence in myself as a free man or in any other free man or free woman.

In closing:

1] Why does a free man or free woman need to resort to violence or being sadistic if he or she is in total control of self first?

2] Does not our innate freedom come with the expectation to maintain self control with yourself first which naturally fosters responsibility and accountability in a gorean framework?

The results gained by managing self control is not anything that I would exchange for the results of acting out violent sadistic behavior on a trusting female, slave or free woman for the record.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~






(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 7:27:51 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		greetings Master Zevar

im not exactly sure what you are referring too. hopefully you will indulge a few questions.

are you saying that for someone to be sadistic, they are out of control or are angry?

is a sadistic act seen as an act of violence to you?

the site you offered is well written, of course, to the standards of Mayo clinic, which i hold in high regard. having said that, Master, do you believe they are the best to diagnose a lifestyle that isnt mainstream?

thank you in advance Master

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 8:13:20 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 783
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
On another note, if you or anyone seriously is interested in calmly discussing the topic of this thread without mud slinging then present your thoughts for discussion.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar
The question remains: What defines a gorean framework ? Does it include violent sadistic behavior toward the women who are in the life a man to provide whatever is needed for the well-being of any woman who is dependent on a man?


Since you seem to have missed it completely, here is where I already discussed this topic, as did many others....except you.... o,O

Happy reading!

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 10:02:27 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		<quote>
In closing:

1] Why does a free man or free woman need to resort to violence or being sadistic if he or she is in total control of self first?

2] Does not our innate freedom come with the expectation to maintain self control with yourself first which naturally fosters responsibility and accountability in a gorean framework?

The results gained by managing self control is not anything that I would exchange for the results of acting out violent sadistic behavior on a trusting female, slave or free woman for the record.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~
</quote>

1). you try to glue two rather disparate notions into one, sadistic behavior does not equal violence.  Nevertheless; an example of a violent person with great self control might be someone in a war.
2). innate freedom only comes with lassize faire, otherwise you wouldn't need cops or courts.

Well, you are all set, and no one seeks your exchange.

Ron  




_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 11:13:11 AM   
Mitzie


Posts: 691
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline 		great post Zevar
But as always mention extreme Sadism on a thread and most of the regulars avoid it like the plague and others will just add sarcasm and jibes and insults.

I think it comes down to the old saying to each there own and to live life to the best of your abilitys what you believe to be true and leave those who believe in a different path to live that type of lifestyle.

well wishes

Mitzie

_____________________________

"The free should not be slave, and the slave should not be free," he said. "I do not understand," she said. "Just as it is wrong for the properly free to be enslaved," he said, "so, too, it is wrong for the properly enslaved to be free."PoG



(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 7/30/2009 7:32:29 PM   
kiani


Posts: 24
Status: offline
Greetings Masters
Greetings Mistresses
Greetings girls

Greetings Master Zevar:

This girl had the day off and does not have to go into work. The gorean man she is in conversation with and she had a good discussion about this topic. His inspiration has led this girl to write this. While she was doing her chores she could not help but to reflect in thought on the various responses, comebacks, reactions and diverse views, thoughts, ideas and attitudes concerning Your posting “What defines a gorean framework.” Regarding how it stirs us to look at the nature of life and reality, as related to ethics, logic, and of ones own perceived moral standards of conduct that are generally accepted as “right” is basically what this girl is very interested in.

There is usually a set of ideas that surround philosophical ideas which are associated particularly within a “gorean lifestyle” and it’s “framework.” How right or wrong something is, the rightness or wrongness of something as judged by socially accepted moral standards. Not forgetting these “gorean concepts” are something thought or imagined that somebody has thought up, or that somebody might be able to imagine are taken from science fiction novels, or actually from science fiction fantasy.

In years passed this girl was owned by a so called "master" who demanded his slaves to obey his twisted definition of “honor.“ He was not a man who acted honorably among others be it free or slave. He would cheat to gain what was not his. He would lie to gain what was not his. He would brutally harm others if he did not get his will, regardless. On and on morally shocking things he would do without any seeming moral obligation to society in the name of him claiming to a “gorean master” who lives in order with what he called "natural".

This girl knows first hand regarding being brutally beaten and emotionally tormented in relating with a violent sadistic sociopathic. Calling what is illegal okay, it is only an alternative lifestyle and a twisted misusing of so called "gorean honor and morality" that totally disregards for the laws of the land. The so called “gorean framework” that includes sadistic violence engulfed this girl into painfulness that was a daily living hell from his daily brutality. His mental sadism was the worse. Yes the beatings were something this girl never wants to survive again. The mental cruelty the worse believe it or not it was so physiologically damaging it took nearly 5 years to trust another man again. There was nothing to compare this to as this girl was young then and it was her first time to be owned. She was so trusting and naive. He took advantage of this over and over and it still doing this same sadistic crap to date with other trusting women. This girl has zero , zilch respect for her former “master.”

The point this girl is making is that although being slave this does not mean that the rights and morals of a slave are thrown out the window. A "master" who misuses his power in a way that attempts to force the obligation of a slave in servitude to him to then manipulate what is moral and try to excuse and make allowances for his dishonorable and illegal ways that he calls his "rights and will over his owned human property" is no “master” this girl would serve or bow to. This sort of man is not a True Master this is a spineless weak-willed fraud of a man and only a male.

Unequivocally a slave should not stop thinking at the door when a man claims to be a honorable Master who acts out brutal, cruel, sadistic, vicious behavior which is “criminal” and which includes inhumane, sadistic actions toward “slaves” who are considered to be “ human property” and forced to yield against their will being viewed as having no value and lower than a beast of the fields or animal dung. In not so flowery word “ I don’t give a shit” attitude concerning a slave is a pitiful excuse for a “master.”

A slave should not abort what has caused her beauty of obedience to bloom. A Master who does not have virtuous behaviors conducting himself in accord with accepted moral standards is only upholding some distorted socialized subculture morality. This sort of male is unable of properly care for a slave, living with this dysfunctional behavior daily causes the slave to be in danger of internalize self hatred. Causing conditions or situations of havoc or disruptive chaos. This girl knows what this did to her and she will never forget.

The outcome of daily internalize self hatred produces coarsely irrational feelings in females. This female wandered about aimlessly not able to perform her duties as she was created to do and with no hope of success unable to succeed or improve, showing a complete lack of ability, competence, or efficiency due to surviving a sadistic violent gorean “master.”

This girl respects Master Zevar questioning if there is not “underlying or hidden/unspoken agenda of acting out sadistic behavior” calling it a “gorean lifestyle.” What Master when he finds a treasure of great value would not embrace it ? Would He not go to great lengths to protect his property from anything that might otherwise damage, injury or destroy what has been built through a bond of trust and his power. Would it not cause physical, mental, moral impairment or deterioration if he did not refrain from treating her sadistically and warping her mind as she is bloody on the floor begging him to stop brutally beating her because she is treated with no regard and simply his “ human property?”

This slave cannot help but to respond to a man who has mastered her not with his brute strength alone. A man who is mastered himself will find a treasured slave who cannot resist in bowing herself before a man in total servitude. When this self mastery is clearly defined within the Man he is then a True Master obviously and easy to see in all he does.

This True Master is more than crude or barbaric. He is made-up of more than just purely physical, mental or instinctive action, rather he masterfully posses all of this and also intellect and reason. Then there is a strong persistent desire yearning within this slave’s heart, a stirring fire in her belly burring to be in absolute submission to the strongest influence she has known, a True Mater’s ruling passion of ownership.

Self control in a strong man is what inspires this slave to serve in obedience, meekness and beauty on her own accord and giving up her own free will to his ability to naturally enslave her to his side. A desire to serve a True Master will never fade that practices self control in his understanding of a “gorean framework” regardless what others think of this girl she feels she just had to speak her heart.

Lastly this girl knows the difference between mastery in a ‘gorean framework” and brute strength (mentally and physically speaking) that usually is acted out in physical and mental sadistic violence. This girl will never allow herself to get trapped into in the wiles of a sadist regardless if he calls it a “gorean framework” or not. Mastery is one thing, sadistic violence is another. You know this girl wonders if John Norman wrote his books to promote “ sadistic violence’ in a “gorean framework?”

Thank You Master for this wonderfully stated thread that You brought out for discussion in spite of the onslaught of disagreement regarding the question, “ What defines a gorean framework” that is commonly silenced.

she wishes A/all well,
kiani

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 20
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