RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As President?

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RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/6/2009 5:11:31 PM

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

You do know that the amount of money allocated to the program was reduced due to demands by republican house members? So if you have any complaints about the size of the program you need to start by asking Boehner why he and his caucus demanded it be smaller than the initial proposal.

No plurality, no ability to filibuster, no way to impact any policy or implemented plan; you'll have to find another scapegoat - at least for another year and a half.

I have no complaints, only making a pragmatic observation.

And I will remind you that the Democrats tried to negotiate a bipartisan bill and made numerous concessions to the powerless GOP. If the Democrats had simply ignored the GOP then the screams of complaints from the right would have been about how they were ignored. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The GOP made the demand they own it.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/6/2009 5:15:34 PM

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Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Beep, wrong answer.

You need to get your beeper recalibrated.

Yep, they did a lot of studies about this. That there are JAMA studies on the issue isn't evidence that the recommendations in the studies are actually being implemented. Virtually all industries and professions have some organization similar to the AMA that does studies and tries to establish best practices. Few businesses follow all of the best practices that their professional organization recommends, usually because they take time/money/effort to implement and the ROI isn't clearcut. I can't find any evidence that the health care industry is unique in this regard. What I do find indicates that they're pretty much the same as other industries. There are JAMA studies about the hours that interns work dating back to 1990, even 1970. There are more studies about it in 2005-6-7-8 because nothing much changed despite the studies.

Again, if these risk mitigation practices were commonplace, the providers that are doing them wouldn't be making the news. Do you have some evidence that all/most/many/a significant number of practitioners and providers have adopted these risk mitigation practices? I looked and couldn't find anything to indicate that this is the case.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/6/2009 10:14:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Yeah CARS was a total failure. Just ask those dealership owners and employees whose businesses and jobs aren't in immediate danger anymore.

A temporary reprieve at best. All it did was accelerate the purchase decision a few months, and most of those cars came out of inventory. If the car companies have learned their lesson they will not step up production until after demand returns to normal, after this artficial run.

Uhhhhh.........yeah.

Most of the cars did come out of inventory.

Wasn't that the purpose?

Those cars sitting in the manufacturer's and dealer's inventories cost them money every day until they are sold.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/6/2009 10:17:19 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/6/2009 11:22:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slutslave4u

DOCTOR'S ORDERS
Obamacare called 'euthanasia bill'
Critic: 'Reflects regime worse than China's one-child policy'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: July 31, 2009
12:45 am Eastern

By Bob Unruh
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

President Obama

The Democrats' proposed national health insurance plan would dictate medications, treatments and mental health services; determine coverages individuals are allowed to have; and operate with real-time access to personal bank accounts, according to a new analysis.
And it's worse, a critic said, than China's mandatory one-child policy.
"In the same way that the bill pushes elderly or the sick toward euthanasia, it is a pill that would cause economic suicide," said Mathew Staver, founder of Liberty Counsel. "It's a euthanasia bill for America."

I don't know where this discussion is after, what, 14 pages...?
But, this OP just CANNOT be serious...!

(in reply to slutslave4u)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/7/2009 12:05:43 AM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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It was on WND. Everything on WND must be assumed to be untrue until verified elsewhere. It's like the Weekly World News except the right wingers believe it.

(in reply to Blaakmaan)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/7/2009 3:43:05 AM

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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I think you are referring to the fact that the government implemented this plan very quickly the way a private company would, and as a result had a minor glitch with servers overloading? Also as a private company would?
No, I'm referring to results and the obvious lack of planning and anticipating results.

Maybe it would help if you defined "successful". Because to me it seems that regardless of the outcome, it would have been unsuccessful by your definition. Would you have been happier if Congress had allocated ten times as much money, only to discover that it was too much and billions of dollars were wasted?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I do compare it to the attempt, under the direct mandate by the Administration, to implement a health care program "very quickly". The result with this relatively minor attempt indicates the ability of the Administration to think through repercussions for their policies.

Oh, so you would prefer health care reform to be implemented very slowly? Like we have been trying to do for the last, what, 40 years or so? How slowly is slow enough?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I'd be interested to see a similar attempt by any "private company". However there is a major distinction that should be considered in any comparison. A private company, at least up until recent history, would suffer economically or fail as a result of such poor planning.

You know, I would agree with you if you had referred to, say, invading Iraq (which turned out such a big blunder that we ARE suffering economically).

Not when you are talking about a program that did exactly what it was supposed to do. Including having a cap on the cost. The only issue I am aware of is that the Web servers and databases were overloaded. Big deal. Would you have been happier if the government had gone to the old bureaucratic ways of paper-based applications?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Are you basically saying that you prefer a government that takes six months to issue regulations and another two years to put a plan into action?
No. I am saying that government should govern and/or regulate and stay out of implementing Fascist policies.

Ah, so that's the problem. It's a failure because it's "fascist". And it's "fascist" because it's a government program. Got it. Thanks for clarifying that.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/7/2009 6:29:05 AM

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quote:

Ah, so that's the problem. It's a failure because it's "fascist". And it's "fascist" because it's a government program. Got it. Thanks for clarifying that.

This is not a "government program" this is an attempt at a government take over of an industry.

The problem is you not understanding the definition of the term. Fascism is a not defined by a government program is it the government taking over industries; as has been the case with some banks and 2 of the three auto makers. It is defined by regimenting industry and commerce as is being attempted by nationalizing the heath industry. The Administration's currently moving on to another Fascist trait as they are currently attempting to suppress opposition and criticism. The third in line to the Presidency going as far as representing opponents as "carrying swastikas" PELOSI LABELS OPPOSITION NAZIS There is even talk of the Administration compiling an enemies list.

quote:

Texas Sen. John Cornyn, accusing the White House of compiling an "enemies list," has asked President Barack Obama to stop an effort to collect "fishy" information Americans see about a health care overhaul.

Enemies List

You mistake my pragmatic representation as partisanship.

quote:

Maybe it would help if you defined "successful". Because to me it seems that regardless of the outcome, it would have been unsuccessful by your definition. Would you have been happier if Congress had allocated ten times as much money, only to discover that it was too much and billions of dollars were wasted?

CARS represents an Administration and Congressional failure of planning; the temporary uptick of car sales notwithstanding. It has cost $3 Billion so far and hasn't added one long term job to the economy. It sold cars by having a national 'rebate' program. It didn't serve any long term goal of economic recovery. No auto company brought back workers of has plans for increasing production.

Worst of all for the Administration, it is an example of government planning and efficiency. It always costs more than expected and does less than promised.

quote:

Oh, so you would prefer health care reform to be implemented very slowly? Like we have been trying to do for the last, what, 40 years or so? How slowly is slow enough?

You can "do it" immediately. Require employers provide health care and expand Medicare to include any unemployed individual. Delivery mechanisms for both options are already in place that don't require any Fascist nationalization. Problem is, the President and Congress has been paid too much by the PAC special interest groups to put forth this approach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
And I will remind you that the Democrats tried to negotiate a bipartisan bill and made numerous concessions to the powerless GOP.

Rhetoric that doesn't replace the pragmatic facts. Besides bipartisanship is off the table. It is the Administration's position that they will push through; WITH OR WITHOUT REPUBLICANS

quote:

If the Democrats had simply ignored the GOP then the screams of complaints from the right would have been about how they were ignored.

Whining about a potential reaction shouldn't be considered if you have a plan and the power to implement it. How would you have treated a Republican response; "It wouldn't have happened without us" were CARS thought out and implemented without any problems?

The Democrats own the field, the players, and the results. Pointing to the demands of the GOP as a reason for failure points to desperation as well as a disconnect to political reality. Fear of the consequence of reelection in the face of growing grass roots opposition to the Administration's socialist agenda is the only demand the current majority is considering.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/7/2009 8:41:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Yeah CARS was a total failure. Just ask those dealership owners and employees whose businesses and jobs aren't in immediate danger anymore.

A temporary reprieve at best. All it did was accelerate the purchase decision a few months, and most of those cars came out of inventory. If the car companies have learned their lesson they will not step up production until after demand returns to normal, after this artficial run.

Uhhhhh.........yeah.

Most of the cars did come out of inventory.

Wasn't that the purpose?

Those cars sitting in the manufacturer's and dealer's inventories cost them money every day until they are sold.

You missed the second half of what I said. the claim was that this would help manufacturing jobs, but if the inventory isnt replaced until demand recovers from this artificial buying spree, no jobs will have been saved or created

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/7/2009 8:46:29 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
CARS represents an Administration and Congressional failure of planning; the temporary uptick of car sales notwithstanding. It has cost $3 Billion so far and hasn't added one long term job to the economy. It sold cars by having a national 'rebate' program. It didn't serve any long term goal of economic recovery. No auto company brought back workers of has plans for increasing production.

Worst of all for the Administration, it is an example of government planning and efficiency. It always costs more than expected and does less than promised.

It's really nothing more than a drive-by bailout. Pumps a quick infusion of cash into the coffers of the car companies by sparking a temporary spike in sales, and that's pretty much the extent of it. Another 3 billion pissed away with no substantive impact on the economoy as a whole.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Democrats own the field, the players, and the results. Pointing to the demands of the GOP as a reason for failure points to desperation as well as a disconnect to political reality. Fear of the consequence of reelection in the face of growing grass roots opposition to the Administration's socialist agenda is the only demand the current majority is considering.

I've got some serious issues with the tactics the republicans are using, but I won't take the thread any further down that road. I'll just say that as disgusted as i am by the way they're fighting their position, I'm not surprised by it, and if the democrats are, they deserve to have their assed handed to them yet again. You expect the republicans to lie and use the fear card; that's what they do. If the democrats weren't ready for that, and can't explain their position well enough to beat that tactic, they've got nobody to blame but themselves. Again. I'd rather not hear any more of their whining.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/8/2009 10:00:51 AM

Brain

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Unemployment Rate Drops To 9.4 % In July, Payrolls Drop By Just 247,000

WASHINGTON - President Barack Obama told the nation Friday that the "worst may be behind us" on the recession after the unemployment rate dipped for the first time in 15 months.

But he warned that the U.S. had a lot further to go, and more work to do, to drag itself out of the worst slump since the Great Depression.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32327533/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/8/2009 10:23:23 AM

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Clunkers for Cash.... get rid of older, badly performing cars and replace with newer, more energy conserving autos... and clear up some inventory... yeah... such a conspiracy.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Brain)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/8/2009 10:24:17 AM

Brain

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No wonder Obama’s approval ratings went down if people got away with this lying krud

Daily Kos: Canadian Woman With Brain Tumor Commercial is Not Completely True

This commercial, the spokeswoman for this commercial, and those running it are not being completely honest.

Another Healthcare Lie, and the Lying Liar That's Telling It.

A group calling itself Patients United Now has been heavily running aniti-healthcare reform ads on our airwaves. The group is actually a front name for the Americans For Prosperity Foundation, a cartel of Right Wing PR mavens best known for hatching a psychotic and ongoing National Global Warming denial campaign (they consider Al Gore the White Devil) and more recently, dropping viral misinformation bombs on the President’s Stimulus package.

Now, the Foundation has focused its attention on defeating Healthcare reform.

They are being aided by a seemingly bottomless pit of cash along with a hired pile of human refuse - prefabricated "private citizens" whose paid function is to mask reality with the stench of their unmitigated and poorly rehearsed A group calling itself Patients United Now has been heavily running aniti-healthcare reform ads on our airwaves.

The group is actually a front name for the Americans For Prosperity Foundation, a cartel of Right Wing PR mavens best known for hatching a psychotic and ongoing National Global Warming denial campaign (they consider Al Gore the White Devil) and more recently, dropping viral misinformation bombs on the President’s Stimulus package.

The current star of the Insurance Industry cabal is Shona Holmes, a whisky-voiced Toronto woman of ample aggregate and dubious honesty. See TV Spot Here.

According to Ms Holmes, she was diagnosed with a “brain tumor”

sometime in 2005. In scores of interviews, she consistently claimed she could not receive timely treatment in Toronto and was forced to seek medical care at the Mayo Clinic in Arizona. Shona is a wannabe-be poster child for the Worldwide failings of government run Healthcare. She spins a shocking yarn, one that would make Socialists everywhere bow their Public Option heads in shame –

if only her story was true.

Over the 4 years since Ms Holmes’ cyst was removed from the ample cavity between her ears, her condition has worsened. Not her actual physical condition, but rather, the ubiquitously reheard and revised description of her medical odyssey.

Back in the Summer of 2007, the propaganda machine at the Mayo Clinic decided to print Ms Holme’s human interest story in an internal Clinic publication. Her healthcare horrors served nicely as a double-sided win for Mayo.

On one side was the sweet story about the Clinic’s responsiveness to Ms Holme’s plight as well as the Clinic's ample expertise in repairing her medical problem. Secondly, it served as a bonus dig against the growing call for Public Healthcare in the U.S. by painting the Canadian system in a negative light. After all, the mere words "Public Healthcare" are the bane of the usury Private Insurance companies and Hospitals administrators alike.

But more interesting was the Mayo Clinic’s choice to reprint

IMPORTANT UPDATE NOTE: THE "REPRINT" LINK IS NOW BROKEN - THE MAYO CLINIC REMOVED MS HOLMES' STORY (#39) FROM THEIR WEBSITE 2 DAYS AFTER THIS DIARY WAS PUBLISHED. STORY #s 38 & 40 ABOUT OTHER MC PATIENTS ARE STILL UP. THE MISSING HOLMES STORY MAY BE FOUND IN AN UPDATE #4, BELOW.

the story this Summer, and this time, afford it a prominent berth on their Web site – just in time for the Healthcare reform battle. Yet, the most fascinating information was to be found in the Mayo Clinic’s own description of Ms Holme’s medical condition.

Quoting the Clinic:

"Dr. Naresh Patel, neurosurgeon, diagnosed Holmes as having a Rathke's cleft cyst (RCC). The rare, fluid-filled sac grows near the pituitary gland at the base of the brain and eventually can cause hormone and vision problems. Dr. Patel joined forces with Drs. David W. Dodick, neurologist, and Michael D. Whitaker, endocrinologist, to work on Holmes' case."

Rathke’s Cleft Cyst can indeed cause more serious symptoms if left untreated, but it is generally very treatable through minimally invasive surgery and NOT a “brain tumor” as both Ms Holmes and Right wing hack writers contend. It's a fluid build-up and has nothing to do with cell division as occurs in Tumors.

Additionally, the direness in the retelling of Ms Holmes’ story grew progressively more horrifying after the Presidential election and as the Healthcare battle began to percolate.

Horror stories of waiting non-specific "months" for treatment in Canada soon gave way to claims of four to six month delays (an experience 180 degrees contrary to that of the scores of Canadians I've personally seen or heard quoted on the subject).

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/19/755113/-Another-Healthcare-Lie,-and-the-Lying-Liar-Thats-Telling-It

(in reply to Brain)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/8/2009 4:57:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I'll just say that as disgusted as i am by the way they're fighting their position, I'm not surprised by it, and if the democrats are, they deserve to have their assed handed to them yet again.

I couldn't agree more. The Dems seem to be ineffective in countering even the most ridiculous wing-nut claims. They don't seem to be trying very hard.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/9/2009 3:13:11 AM

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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Ah, so that's the problem. It's a failure because it's "fascist". And it's "fascist" because it's a government program. Got it. Thanks for clarifying that.
This is not a "government program" this is an attempt at a government take over of an industry.
...
You mistake my pragmatic representation as partisanship.

Cash for Clunkers is an attempt at a government takeover? You are getting pretty close to tinfoil territory.

A pragmatic response that used the word fascism. Which by the way means something quite different rom your definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Maybe it would help if you defined "successful". Because to me it seems that regardless of the outcome, it would have been unsuccessful by your definition. Would you have been happier if Congress had allocated ten times as much money, only to discover that it was too much and billions of dollars were wasted?
CARS represents an Administration and Congressional failure of planning; the temporary uptick of car sales notwithstanding. It has cost $3 Billion so far and hasn't added one long term job to the economy. It sold cars by having a national 'rebate' program. It didn't serve any long term goal of economic recovery. No auto company brought back workers of has plans for increasing production.

You didn't ask my question: what does "successful" mean in the context of a government program like Cash for Clunkers?

And incidentally, auto companies ARE bringing back workers. Chrysler already said that they are worried about how to meet the demand generated by the additional $2 billion. You will of course spin that as a "failure" too.

quote:

Oh, so you would prefer health care reform to be implemented very slowly? Like we have been trying to do for the last, what, 40 years or so? How slowly is slow enough?

You can "do it" immediately. Require employers provide health care and expand Medicare to include any unemployed individual. Delivery mechanisms for both options are already in place that don't require any Fascist nationalization. Problem is, the President and Congress has been paid too much by the PAC special interest groups to put forth this approach.

I'm actually surprised - we may actually both like the same solution! I agree with expanding Medicare. Why create a new government program if we already have a tried-and-true proven one?

I would go a step further. Why limit it just to the unemployed? How about the self-employed? How about entrepreneurs starting new businesses (and creating jobs)?

A mandate for employers is very problematic, though, just as a mandate for individuals is.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/9/2009 4:00:38 AM

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Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
I'll just say that as disgusted as i am by the way they're fighting their position, I'm not surprised by it, and if the democrats are, they deserve to have their assed handed to them yet again.

I couldn't agree more. The Dems seem to be ineffective in countering even the most ridiculous wing-nut claims. They don't seem to be trying very hard.

The "sin of human respect" is strong in Obama. However, when Obama loses that burden I think he will be a real bastard. The republicans will reap what they sow. I just hope his conversion comes sooner than later.

< Message edited by Lorr47 -- 8/9/2009 4:03:23 AM >

(in reply to MmeGigs)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/9/2009 7:36:56 AM

Posts: 11766
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quote:

Cash for Clunkers is an attempt at a government takeover?

No - CARS is a deficit increasing additional bail out. The Fascist take over occurred when the US government took over Chrysler and GM; it fits the pragmatic definition, you'll learn better it you look up the word yourself.

quote:

You didn't ask my question: what does "successful" mean in the context of a government program like Cash for Clunkers? And incidentally, auto companies ARE bringing back workers. Chrysler already said that they are worried about how to meet the demand generated by the additional $2 billion.

"Success" would be self sustaining. $2 Billion here, $2 Billion there, eventually it runs out. When there isn't another $2 Billion to put into the pot - Failure. Or is the Administration's plan t keep adding $2 Billion until everyone gets a new car? Why not just spread the $billion over all the citizens? Maybe someone wants a more environmentally neutral vehicle, you know - like a bike? Hey - maybe I've stumbled on the next great idea - cash for old Schwinn's?

quote:

I agree with expanding Medicare.

Yeah - but then the PAC and special interest payouts during the campaign would have been for naught.

(in reply to cadenas)

RE: Is This What America Voted For In Voting Obama As P... - 8/9/2009 12:56:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

You didn't ask my question: what does "successful" mean in the context of a government program like Cash for Clunkers? And incidentally, auto companies ARE bringing back workers. Chrysler already said that they are worried about how to meet the demand generated by the additional $2 billion.
"Success" would be self sustaining. $2 Billion here, $2 Billion there, eventually it runs out. When there isn't another $2 Billion to put into the pot - Failure. Or is the Administration's plan t keep adding $2 Billion until everyone gets a new car? Why not just spread the $billion over all the citizens? Maybe someone wants a more environmentally neutral vehicle, you know - like a bike? Hey - maybe I've stumbled on the next great idea - cash for old Schwinn's?

LOL! No, such programs aren't SUPPOSED to be self-sustaining. In the contrary. If these types of programs were self-sustaining, there would be no need for them. That's why there is both a budget cap and a deadline on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I agree with expanding Medicare.
Yeah - but then the PAC and special interest payouts during the campaign would have been for naught.

Sigh... Unfortunately you are 100% right on that. Although I wouldn't rule it out quite yet. Obama is just shrewed enough to maybe pull it off - something like telling his Dem pals "if you don't get your act together, then I'll just make everybody eligible for Medicare" - which I believe he might be able to do with an Executive Order without Congressional involvement. I don't seriously expect it to happen, of course.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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