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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/13/2009 9:39:51 PM   
Tantriqu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxkittenxox

Perhaps you were already low in oxygen saturation. If that was the case, you may have not had enough oxygen in your brain and it wasn't a convulsion, it was you're bodies way of... Rejolting itself. As if it was struggling to breathe. 

Oxygen deprived yes, but definitely a convulsion.
The seizure is the body's way of getting horizontal as fast as possible, i.e., down to the ground so gravity can help get some blood back to the brain. Brain better in seconds once the oxygen and sugar are permitted to return.
The ignorant dude simultaneously compressed both of her carotid arteries with the cloth of his shirt, either starving the brain of blood and oxygen, or setting off a reflex. To make matters even worse, he KEPT HER IN A SITTING POSITION!! He almost committed manslaughter twice in less than a minute.

Hey, speaking of dangerous ignorance, it's the anniversary of the TV British MP who died during auto-erotic asphyxiation with an unbitten satsuma in his mouth.

Play safe, kids, and stay in school.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/14/2009 6:42:33 AM   
angelikaJ


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Re: tight corsets

That discounts the chemistry of breathplay.
If too much Carbon Dioxide builds up it is not a good thing.

The Medical Realities of Breath Play

I have no issues with fully consentual play, but how many people who do this stuff understand all of the dangers.
Obviously not the OP and likely not the dom she was playing with.





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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/16/2009 2:35:08 AM   
spookyfe


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we practice breath play my masters in the military and has been trained to kill using his hands he never goes past a certain point and never uses anything other than his hand and always watches me closly .  often giving me his breath to regulate mine if i struggle he knows when to stop .   but also he likes to cover my mouth and nose but i dont like it so rarely does it its too claustrophobic and i panic.  the other form he does which i also love he lies on my back and weighs me down.  again he is very watchful and attentive he is aware of his strength.  we both are fuly aware of the dangers 

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/19/2009 7:20:34 AM   
micksubbie


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You had such a profound lack of oxygen to your brain, that you had a hypoxic seizure. Breath play is based on a mild state of hypoxic euphoria. That is, you slightly limit the amount of air, causing an increased euphoric state while haveing sex. Instead of LIMITING your air supply, the dom cut off ALL your air, causing you to pass out from hypoxia, and seize. This is seen often in the emergency room or by ambulance personel. If you have a trusted friend in either of these roles, you might ask them more about it. And yes, breath play is very dangerous, even when practiced by "experienced" scene folks. Kids die all the time from practicing it alone; as did David Carradine very recently.

(in reply to WithoutReason)
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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/20/2009 5:26:48 PM   
KockRocket


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... 

< Message edited by KockRocket -- 8/20/2009 5:27:32 PM >

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/21/2009 5:54:00 AM   
GotSteel


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It sounds like the dom cut off the blood to her brain by compressing one or both carotid arteries and/or the jugular veins.  This is called a blood choke, it's a practice in certain martial arts such as judo and MMA, you may find more accurate information and fewer rumors by searching in that direction. For instance I found this after a few seconds of searching:

Unconsciousness occurs approximately 10 seconds (8-14 seconds) after choking. After release from the choke hold, the subject regains consciousness naturally (spontaneously) without difficulty in 10-20 seconds...When convulsions occur, the EEG findings are very similar to a very short epileptic seizure.

Here are a couple of video examples of how incredibly quickly people loose consciousness from a blood chokes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7eEBvZG8rA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5I6F48Smyc

A large number of police, judoka and MMA athletes manage to use blood chokes with no lasting effects, however as the following wiki shows it is immensely possible to cause brain damage or death:

"Safe Application
This choke, in either the figure-four or clasped-hand variation, is an extremely dangerous technique if used thoughtlessly or improperly. When applied as a blood choke in particular, the brain is immediately deprived of oxygen, leading (as mentioned above) to unconsciousness and ultimately (if not released) to brain damage or death. It is imperative, when using this technique, to be completely aware of your opponent's physical state, and to release the choke at any sign of your opponent losing consciousness or "tapping out." Rafiel Torre, a former mixed martial arts trainer and fighter, was convicted of killing a man using this technique, demonstrating that it is entirely lethal if misused. [3]"



So I guess good luck, blood chokes aren't something that I'd want someone without a whole lot of experience trying on me but you can at least find documentation and research as the practice is a part of two very popular martial arts and make an informed decision.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/21/2009 7:23:57 AM   
angelikaJ


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Breath play via cutting off the blood supply does carry a risk for stroke.

The compression of the arteries may cause small pieces of arterial plaque to break off.

edit: clarification

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 8/21/2009 7:25:21 AM >


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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/21/2009 1:02:54 PM   
Scotty306134


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This is an article about breathplay from Jay Wiseman quoted on another site. Hope it helps with Your decision.

The Medical Realities of Breath Control Play

Copyright 1997 by Jay Wiseman, author of "SM 101: A Realistic Introduction". All rights reserved.

For some time now, I have felt that the practices of suffocation and/or strangulation done in an erotic context (generically known as breath control play; more properly known as asphyxiophilia) were in fact far more dangerous than they are generally perceived to be.

As a person with years of medical education and experience, I know of no way whatsoever that either suffocation or strangulation can be done in a way that does not intrinsically put the recipient at risk of cardiac arrest. (There are also numerous additional risks; more on them later.)

Furthermore, and my biggest concern, I know of no reliable way to determine when such a cardiac arrest has become imminent.

Often the first detectable sign that an arrest is approaching is the arrest itself. Furthermore, if the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small. Thus the recipient is dead and their partner, if any, is in a very perilous legal situation. (The authorities could consider such deaths first-degree murders until proven otherwise, with the burden of such proof being on the defendant). There are also the real and major concerns of the surviving partner's own life-long remorse to having caused such a death, and the trauma to the friends and family members of both parties.

Some breath control fans say that what they do is acceptably safe because they do not take what they do up to the point of unconsciousness. I find this statement worrisome for two reasons:

(1) You can't really know when a person is about to go unconscious until they actually do so, thus it's extremely difficult to know where the actual point of unconsciousness is until you actually reach it.

(2) More importantly, unconsciousness is a symptom, not a condition in and of itself. It has numerous underlying causes ranging from simple fainting to cardiac arrest, and which of these will cause the unconsciousness cannot be known in advance.

I have discussed my concerns regarding breath control with well over a dozen SM-positive physicians, and with numerous other SM-positive health professionals, and all share my concerns. We have discussed how breath control might be done in a way that is not life-threatening, and come up blank. We have discussed how the risk might be significantly reduced, and come up blank. We have discussed how it might be determined that an arrest is imminent, and come up blank.

Indeed, so far not one (repeat, not one) single physician, nurse, paramedic, chiropractor, physiologist, or other person with substantial training in how a human body works has been willing to step forth and teach a form of breath control play that they are willing to assert is acceptably safe -- i.e., does not put the recipient at imminent, unpredictable risk of dying. I believe this fact makes a major statement.

Other "edge play" topics such as suspension bondage, electricity play, cutting, piercing, branding, enemas, water sports, and scat play can and have been taught with reasonable safety, but not breath control play. Indeed, it seems that the more somebody knows about how a human body works, the more likely they are to caution people about how dangerous breath control is, and about how little can be done to reduce the degree of risk.

In many ways, oxygen is to the human body, and particularly to the heart and brain, what oil is to a car's engine. Indeed, there's a medical adage that goes "hypoxia (becoming dangerously low on oxygen) not only stops the motor, but also wrecks the engine." Therefore, asking how one can play safely with breath control is very similar to asking how one can drive a car safely while draining it of oil.

Some people tell the "mechanics" something like, "Well, I'm going to drain my car of oil anyway, and I'm not going to keep track of how low the oil level is getting while I'm driving my car, so tell me how to do this with as much safety as possible." (They may even add something like "Hey, I always shut the engine off before it catches fire.") They then get frustrated when the mechanics scratch their heads and say that they don't know. They may even label such mechanics as "anti-education."

A bit about my background may help explain my concerns. I was an ambulance crewman for over eight years. I attended medical school for three years, and passed my four-year boards, (then ran out of money). I am a former member of the American Academy of Family Physicians and a former American Heart Association instructor in Advanced Cardiac Life Support. I have an extensive martial arts background that includes a first-degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My martial arts training included several months of judo that involved both my choking and being choked.

I have been an instructor in first aid, CPR, and various advanced emergency care techniques for over sixteen years. My students have included physicians, nurses, paramedics, police officers, fire fighters, wilderness emergency personnel, martial artists, and large numbers of ordinary citizens. I currently offer both basic and advanced first aid and CPR training to the SM community.

During my ambulance days, I responded to at least one call involving the death of a young teenage boy who died from autoerotic strangulation, and to several other calls where this was suspected but could not be confirmed. (Family members often "sanitize" such scenes before calling 911.) Additionally, I personally know two members of my local SM community who went to prison after their partners died during breath control play.

The primary danger of suffocation play is that it is not a condition that gets worse over time (regarding the heart, anyway, it does get worse over time regarding the brain). Rather, what happens is that the more the play is prolonged, the greater the odds that a cardiac arrest will occur. Sometimes even one minute of suffocation can cause this; sometimes even less.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 1: When the heart gets low on oxygen, it starts to fire off "extra" pacemaker sites. These usually appear in the ventricles and are thus called premature ventricular contractions -- PVC's for short. If a PVC happens to fire off during the electrical re polarization phase of cardiac contraction (the dreaded "PVC on T" phenomenon, also sometimes called "R on T") it can kick the heart over into ventricular fibrillation -- a form of cardiac arrest. The lower the heart gets on oxygen, the more PVC's it generates, and the more vulnerable to their effect it becomes, thus hypoxia increases both the probability of a PVC-on-T occurring and of its causing a cardiac arrest.

When this will happen to a particular person in a particular session is simply not predictable. This is exactly where most of the medical people I have discussed this topic with "hit the wall." Virtually all medical folks know that PVC's are both life-threatening and hard to detect unless the patient is hooked to a cardiac monitor. When medical folks discuss breath control play, the question quickly becomes: How can you tell when they start throwing PVC's? The answer is: You basically can't.

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 2: When breathing is restricted, the body cannot eliminate carbon dioxide as it should, and the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood increases. Carbon dioxide (CO2) and water (H2 exist in equilibrium with what's called carbonic acid (H2CO3) in a reaction catalyzed by an enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. (Sorry, but I can't do subscripts in this program.)

Thus: CO2 + H2O H2CO3

A molecule of carbonic acid dissociates on its own into a molecule of what's called bicarbonate (HCO3-) and an (acidic) hydrogen ion. (H+)

Thus: H2CO3 = HCO3- and H+

Thus the overall pattern is:

H2O + CO2 = H2CO3 = HCO3- + H+

Therefore, if breathing is restricted, CO2 builds up and the reaction shifts to the right in an attempt to balance things out, ultimately making the blood more acidic and thus decreasing its pH. This is called respiratory acidosis. (If the patient hyperventilates, they "blow off CO2" and the reaction shifts to the left, thus increasing the pH. This is called respiratory alkalosis, and has its own dangers.)

Quick pathophysiology lesson # 3:

Again, if breathing is restricted, not only does carbon dioxide have a hard time getting out, but oxygen also has a hard time getting in. A molecule of glucose (C6H12O6) breaks down within the cell by a process called glycolysis into two molecules of pyruvate, thus creating a small amount of ATP for the body to use as energy. Under normal circumstances, pyruvate quickly combines with oxygen to produce a much larger amount of ATP. However, if there's not enough oxygen to properly metabolize the pyruvate, it is converted into lactic acid and produces one form of what's called a metabolic acidosis.

As you can see, either a build-up in the blood of carbon dioxide or a decrease in the blood of oxygen will cause the pH of the blood to fall. If both occur at the same time, as they do in cases of suffocation, the pH of the blood will plummet to life-threatening levels within a very few minutes. The pH of normal human blood is in the 7.35 to 7.45 range (slightly alkaline). A pH falling to 6.9 (or raising to 7. is "incompatible with life."

Past experience, either with others or with that same person, is not particularly useful. Carefully watching their level of consciousness, skin color, and pulse rate is of only limited value. Even hooking the bottom up to both a pulse oximeter and a cardiac monitor (assuming you had either piece of equipment, and they're not cheap) would be of only limited additional value.

While an experienced clinician can sometimes detect PVC's by feeling the patient's pulse, in reality the only reliable way to detect them is to hook the patient up to a cardiac monitor. The problem is that each PVC is potentially lethal, particularly if the heart is low on oxygen. Even if you "ease up" on the bottom immediately, there's no telling when the PVC's will stop. They could stop almost at once, or they could continue for hours.

In addition to the primary danger of cardiac arrest, there is good evidence to document that there is a very real risk of cumulative brain damage if the practice is repeated often enough. In particular, laboratory studies of repeated brief interruption of blood flow to the brains of animals and studies of people with what's called "sleep apnea syndrome" (in which they stop breathing for up to two minutes while sleeping) document that cumulative brain damage does occur in such cases.

There are many documented additional dangers. These include, but are not limited to: rupture of the windpipe, fracture of the larynx, damage to the blood vessels in the neck, dislodging a fatty plaque in a neck artery which then travels to the brain and causes a stroke, damage to the cervical spine, seizures, airway obstruction by the tongue, and aspiration of vomit. Additionally, there are documented cases in which the recipient appeared to fully recover but was found dead several hours later.

The American Psychiatric Association estimates a death rate of one person per year per million of population -- thus about 250 deaths last year in the U.S. Law enforcement estimates go as much as four times higher. Most such deaths occur during solo play, however there are many documented cases of deaths that occurred during play with a partner. It should be noted that the presence of a partner does nothing to limit the primary danger, and does little or nothing to limit most of the secondary dangers.

Some people teach that choking can be safely done if pressure on the windpipe is avoided. Their belief is that pressing on the arteries leading to the brain while avoiding pressure on the windpipe can safely cause unconsciousness. The reality, unfortunately, is that pressing on the carotid arteries, exactly as they recommend, presses on baroreceptors known as the carotid sinus bodies. These bodies then cause vasodilation in the brain, thus there is not enough blood to perfuse the brain and the recipient loses consciousness. However, that's not the whole story.

Unfortunately, a message is also sent to the main pacemaker of the heart, via the vagus nerve, to decrease the rate and force of the heartbeat. Most of the time, under strong vagal influence, the rate and force of the heartbeat decreases by one third. However, every now and then, the rate and force decreases to zero and the bottom "flatlines" into asystole -- another, and more difficult to treat, form of cardiac arrest. There is no way to tell whether or not this will happen in any particular instance, or how quickly. There are many documented cases of as little as five seconds of choking causing a vagal-outflow-induced cardiac arrest.

For the reason cited above, many police departments have now either entirely banned the use of choke holds or have reclassified them as a form of deadly force. Indeed, a local CHP officer recently had a $250,000 judgment brought against him after a nonviolent suspect died while being choked by him.

Finally, as a CPR instructor myself, I want to caution that knowing CPR does little to make the risk of death from breath control play significantly smaller. While CPR can and should be done, understand that the probability of success is likely to be less than 10%.

I'm not going to state that breath control is something that nobody should ever do under any circumstances. I have no problem with informed, freely consenting people taking any degree of risk they wish. I am going to state that there is a great deal of ignorance regarding what actually happens to a body when it's suffocated or strangled, and that the actual degree of risk associated with these practices is far greater than most people believe.

I have noticed that, when people are educated regarding the severity and unpredictability of the risks, fewer and fewer choose to play in this area, and those who do continue tend to play less often. I also notice that, because of its severe and unpredictable risks, more and more SM party-givers are banning any form of breath control play at their events.

(in reply to angelikaJ)
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RE: Breathplay Question... - 8/29/2009 11:08:31 AM   
JustStephen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Scotty306134

..... if the recipient does arrest, the probability of resuscitating them, even with optimal CPR, is distinctly small....



Seconded! This is so true, regardless of why the heart has stopped all CPR will do is keep the organs and brain oxygenated until the paramedics turn up. If the paramedic is more than 15 minutes from you it is unlikely the victim will live.

These accidents do happen in breath play but people will play regardless so know the real risks you are taking.

In my opinion there is only one type of breath play; when a hand is placed over the mouth and nose to restrict breathing. Pressure on the wind pipe is very dangerous as it can be made to collapse causing death. What happened to the OP is not breath play but a deliberate restriction to the blood supply to the brain causing unconsciousness. I have first hand evidence of the latter and if you don't happen to be a fully kitted out paramedic then don't go there.

Hope that helps.

Stephen.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 9/10/2009 9:10:57 AM   
xoxkittenxox


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Recently, I've experimented with a little bit of this and... I seemed to have built up a tolerance to being choked. Technically, I use a leash and pull it tightly around the bars of my bed but I've been able to tighten it more and more and lowering more down the bed. I can last for around 5-7 minutes as such. I can slightly breathe, in intervals, but I am curious what part I find erotic. Is it the struggle for breathing, the tightness around my throat, or the feeling of submission? I have tried other means of "suffocation" but none seem to turn me on as much as this, which leads me to believe its not the breathing part but the mental part.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 9/11/2009 2:19:54 AM   
ranja


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you should not play games like that by yourself... it happens that people misjudge and hang themselves... Michael Hutchinson INXS

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 9/11/2009 6:46:08 AM   
xoxkittenxox


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Probably shouldn't, and probably won't anymore, at least for a long time. I've come to be able to tell when I am close to passing out, need to breathe and I usually back off, no matter how into it I am. But I do realize accidents happen. Would be a very embarrassing way to die for me...

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/4/2009 3:15:26 PM   
Realwanderer


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I used to be fascinated by breath play. As others say very dangerous, and worth considering to stop.
Or conciser water boarding, you should be able to find some official looking instructions on that topic.

You can choke off 3 things:
Supply of air, this takes a while to take its toll, more than a minute at least and not a pleasant sensation, but probably the least dangerous.
Supply of oxygen to the brain, i.e. the supply artery. Most likely this happened to you. BTW you can be history in seconds, and with out pain or panic. A quiet way to go but more problematic for your pay partner.
Main return artery. Very unpleasant, you get the feeling your head blows up, and dangerous with out a doubt.

Besides this you can cause some damage by squeezing in the wrong bits.
So now you know what to tell Petrus in case you arrive unexpected early at the heaven gates.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/4/2009 5:52:28 PM   
DesFIP


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It appeals to me enormously but he won't do it. What I have discovered is that I don't need breathplay as much as just neck play, Him biting my neck, his hand around the back of my neck like he was picking up a kitten, his hand wrapped around my throat without tightening it. Just these things are enough to put me into a wide eyed extremely submissive state.

He even once came up behind me while I was cooking, put his forearm around my neck and yanked me back up against him. Dinner burned.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/4/2009 8:43:22 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WithoutReason

I would have an extremely hard time believing that my response was because of something he did or didn't do. [...]
I guess the best way to put it would be convulsing. My friend said it started about 15 to 20 seconds after he'd pulled his shirt around my neck.


He did not know what he was doing. What he did, which caused it, is that he cut off the blood supply to your brain. That causes your vision to black out rapidly, followed by distorted hearing, then a seizure that relents shortly after blood flow has been restored, provided it was not interrupted for too long (which causes permanent brain damage). In martial arts, this is called a blood choke, and it is the single most reliable way to make someone pass out with a limited risk of causing permanent disability or death when done properly. It has zero recreational value, except in very risky rape play.

You need to come to terms with the idea that he made a mistake.

And a dangerous beginner's mistake, at that.

quote:

I was about 75% coherant of what I was doing and what was going on as soon as the weird convulsions/muscle spasms started; but they were involuntary.


Of course they are involuntary. What is going on, is that your brain is entering a seizure due to systolic blood pressure dropping below 40mmHg. The most energy intensive processes go first, which is why you feel partially coherent. In a short time, however, you start to become less and less coherent as the seizure begins firing in other parts of the brain. The first sign is usually impaired or lost vision, but what follows will depend on the particulars of your cerebral blood flow, as well as whether the blood flow has been restricted on both sides of the neck or just one.

quote:

We said we might be willing to try in again in a couple weeks, but we both agreed to try and do some research first as to why it may have happened. If it happens again obviously no more breath play for me, but the idea of that kinda makes me sad...


He really needs to educate himself before you even consider having another go at this.

Breath play is a risky proposition, particularly carried out with a shirt, and it will reflect badly on all who engage in it to have another accidental death in the media as a consequence of two people thinking with their libido and not getting a good picture of what they are doing before doing it.

Ask a doctor that specializes in diving accidents to educate you.

It's your life. It's probably worth more than a quick search on Google.

Don't mean to sound overly harsh, but you're in over your heads with this.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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We do.
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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/4/2009 8:51:11 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xiam

If you get off on the feeling of something around your throat,  however, you might have him try pressure on the sides of the neck which constricts the flow of blood through your jugulars and gives a very similar rush.  It's still risky play, but more in the realm of damage than death.


Not at all. That's precisely what he did here. And it is very much in the realm of death.

Tantriqu, GotSteel and Scotty provided the informative replies here.

Most of the others were downright dangerous.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/7/2009 1:04:23 AM   
spookyfe


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I love breathplay just him putting his hand to my throat sends me to space.   he never uses anything other than his hand so he can feel and see me clearly .   he also does the hand over mouth and nose also he will lie on me pressing down restricting my breath.  he tries not to do too much direct on the throat.   (even though when im in a certain place and begging for it he does try to keep it to a minimum)

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/7/2009 6:37:47 AM   
WithoutReason


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Holy Moly. So I totally forgot all about this thread, and then someone shoots me an email and says I ought to check it out. The first time around this thing didn't get a whole lot of attention, but I guess it has now.

Unfortunately I haven't read all of the responses yet. It's 6:30 and I must dreadfully go to work in 15 minutes.

But! I will say. That since the original incident, that particular dom I was talking about and referring to took a great deal of time to educate himself before trying it again. He just didn't want me to be the one to educate him; something related to pride and ego. Nothing seizure like has happened since, I've never lost consciousness since, and we've come to a kind of unsaid understanding. He makes sure he can see and watch my face either directly or reflectively in a mirror. Once I just barely reach the point where I can feel my brain/body almost reach the point where it's fighting to stay conscious I start to scratch his arms. It's a difficult stage to describe, but it's just before that fight of "in and out" where you're not losing consciousness but you're fighting to stay that way. I recognize the feelings and what my body does just before that and I start to scratch and he lets go. It's easier than a safe word because talking is a little difficult, and scratching is an easy goal to focus on because instinctively I think my body might do it anyways at some point. I get that dizzy, lightheaded feeling that I love so much with less of the risk. I understand it's still a risk but I'm obviously not anatomically suited for passing out, so we take it so far and then we stop, lessening the risk.

I will read what everyone had to say when I get off of work. Promise :)

Have a good one everybody!!!

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/7/2009 7:12:01 AM   
angelikaJ


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There is a lot of solid medical-fact based information here.
I am glad you are going to read it.

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RE: Breathplay Question... - 10/8/2009 8:46:25 PM   
slutteboi


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Joined: 10/1/2009
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Having experience as a EMT 2nd level, i know enough that if you are having this sort of reaction you should get a check up immediately. so many things can happen when you do this. spasms would be a lack of oxygen to the muscles. But would not be explained by a lack to the brain. something happened chemically in your body; a pineal response would be my first guess. you have a number of good suggestions here. definitely go alternatively; use other methods until you find the one safe for you and still satisfying.

also watch out for drug experimentation. with your reaction i would hesitate to give you any altering drugs in the ER because something is imbalanced. actually good you did this. you need to find out what happened. talk to a doctor and be painfully honest. find a doctor that will not be put off by bdsm play. in fact talk to a physicians assistant. i find them more helpful anyway.

I wouldn't stop the breath control. you are obviously hooked on it anyway. just try other methods.

(in reply to WithoutReason)
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