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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:34:51 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I also wonder what happened to the very vocal anti-war factions that used to post regularly about how it all would be over if only the Democrats were in power and they had "their man" in the White House?


Seven months, Merc.

Even the Iraq plan discussed during the campaign was 18 months. And we knew we'd revisit Afghanistan.

If it drags on, though, no doubt those voices will ring loudly again.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:36:14 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

It's great for sophistry, but pointless for substantive debate.
Nice try MM, I think the lack of answers to this question in the OP;
Do the same people who saw US intervention as a major embarrassment for the US now see these occupations as positive representations of their political position?
speaks to the discomfort, and the hypocrisy, of those formally here daily posting 'anti-war', 'anti-Bush', rhetoric. It must have been rhetoric and not actual sentiment, or else the change in administration would not have eliminated the protest or general outcry.

You see sophistry? I see documented, political party based hypocrisy.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:39:26 AM   
Starbuck09


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No I agree that Obama has not been truthful about what he planned to do with America's foreign policy or at the very least was misleading. I always think whenever length of troop deployment is being determined by how many votes certain figures will get you [from any candidate Hillary was an appaling example of this] that said candidates should be put very firmly in their place. I agree with the premise of your thread mercnbeth I was ambivalent towards Obama as I don't live in America I tend to judge the candidates on their own merits rather than ther political parties agenda [I know you can't do that if you live there] but feel that 1 he was hyped up too much and people had unrealistic expectations [viv a vis Tony Blair gaining power in Britain] and 2 has so far I think been very limpid with regard to the changes he promised to push through. I'm not laying all this at his feet but as head of the party he represents he takes the rap.
I just don't agree that in a political debate that the troops both living and dead should be used as a stick to batter the opposition.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:41:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

If it drags on, though, no doubt those voices will ring loudly again.
Guess you backed off the 'sophistry' defense and have moved on to the 'more time' defense.

No indication of any change in the prior administration's position in either GITMO or Iran. Meanwhile, an commitment for a minimum 20,000 more troops in Afghanistan. Yet more time is needed?

Tell me, if for seven months, you dropped a hammer every day and it fell to the ground, how many months have to pass before you don't have faith that it will every fall up?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:41:04 AM   
Sanity


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A little bit of backup for your point Merc - not that you really need it.

(Who doesn't love those people down at Newsbusters?)  

quote:

With Obama In Office Kossacks Not So Worried About War

When George W. Bush was in the White House, one of the leading anti-war voices in the nation was the ultra-liberal website Daily Kos.

Now that Barack Obama is President, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are mysteriously no longer of such great concern to the Netroots.

I guess the anti-war movement was much more about getting Bush out of office than getting our troops out of harm's way.

Such was reported by the Washington Examiner's Byron York Tuesday

http://www.newsbusters.org/





_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:44:49 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

It's great for sophistry, but pointless for substantive debate.
Nice try MM, I think the lack of answers to this question in the OP;
Do the same people who saw US intervention as a major embarrassment for the US now see these occupations as positive representations of their political position?
speaks to the discomfort, and the hypocrisy, of those formally here daily posting 'anti-war', 'anti-Bush', rhetoric. It must have been rhetoric and not actual sentiment, or else the change in administration would not have eliminated the protest or general outcry.

You see sophistry? I see documented, political party based hypocrisy.


Actually, Merc, you just agreed with me.

While purporting to ask a question, the poster is presenting an argument (or at least a claim). At least logically, instead of throwing it to critics, the claimant should present the case.

Without that, yes, it's sophistry, in the form of an unsupported claim presented as self-evident. It's "argument" relies on assumptions aimed as criticism without specific evidence.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/18/2009 8:47:47 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:48:35 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Without that, yes, it's sophistry, in the form of an unsupported claim presented as self-evident.
Yes - like the expectation that time is the only hurdle to overcome to see a result change.

Well at minimum, I'm happy you agree it is hypocrisy and party loyalty generated and not an indication of any anti-war or anti-foreign intervention position.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 8:52:19 AM   
Musicmystery


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I do--but that's a given from both sides, and not really helpful to a discussion beyond endless accusations.

Introducing continual new assumptions isn't helpful either. I didn't say time was the only hurdle--that's your twist.

And continually twisting to attempt to keep folks defending new strings of such assumptions is indeed sophistry. It's intent is not to persuade, but to win an argument not in the logical sense, but in the lesser sense.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/18/2009 8:55:11 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 9:10:22 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I didn't say time was the only hurdle--that's your twist.
Well, I missed your others, why don't you expand upon them?

What you see as a solicitation of 'defense' I desire for clarity. For instance, your only reply for 'why?' was time. Now you allude to having more hurdles. Now that you raise that as a reply why is it sophistry to ask what they are so I too, may learn and become enlightened?

I dont seek to persuade, I seek to be persuaded with a logical argument. Until then, I'll just keep asking questions, and let the answers persuade.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 9:11:51 AM   
Musicmystery


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And I don't have time for the game, Merc. You enjoy.

[Don't forget the "Well, I wouldn't call ________ a '__________'" twist in your "response."]

As you know (it was only a few posts ago), I didn't advance a claim. I actually answered your question wondering about where the voices went. The hurdles to accomplishing it is your baby.

Further, my suggestion to your inquiry wasn't satisfactory because you weren't actually investigating where the voices went. It was, instead, a criticism aimed at those. Again, the question was not an inquiry, but a claim, presented without its case. Such approaches lack not only logic, but integrity as well.

That's why continuing such discussions is fruitless. Sophistry's goal is not clarity, but continued obsfucation. It's a game to win, not to persuade--nor to be persuaded. The issue will (and has) continually shift to suit the verbal jab at hand.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/18/2009 9:25:42 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 9:14:30 AM   
rightwinghippie


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I was curious to hear some of those other reasons (besides time) also.

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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 9:31:58 AM   
Musicmystery


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See 3rd paragraph above.

If you have any case for withdrawing immediately, taking in consideration the consequences, I'd equally be curious.

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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 10:05:56 AM   
rightwinghippie


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How is noting the contradiction between what the guy I did not vote for campaigned on ,and his actions, after victory with a filibuster proof majority in both houses, an indication that I support the rhetoric he campaigned on?

3rd paragraph
"As you know (it was only a few posts ago), I didn't advance a claim. I actually answered your question wondering about where the voices went. The hurdles to accomplishing it is your baby. "

But no one is curious as to where they went, Indeed that is rather Zen, Where does the voice go when one is silent.
We can all see how the people are still here, they are just being silent on the subject.

The question of the OP is not "where" but "WHY".

You are the one trying to shift the subject to obscufate. Basically Obama killing children in Pakistan is Ok with the Anti War folks, because it really was not Anti War, but Anti Republican. That is the topic, yet you attempt to demand I give reasons for a policy I don't support...

Another way to look at it is, by consistent standards, Obama is just as much a warmongering International Criminal as Bush was. Yet no Condemnation.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 10:11:14 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

How many kids has Obama killed?  = 0

How many kids have Bush/Cheaney killed with their war based on a lie of WMD?

= 4,400 US troops
= 30,000 + wounded US forces
=101,000 + civilians
=6,000,000+ refugees displaced
(Numbers do not include losses to armies part of the "coalition of the unwilling")


Liar

Number of innocent ALLIED Pakistani civilians killed by Obama
18 here
29 here
25 here
And I love this article's title
Obama murders his first civilians

You really need to take that hatred of all things not Democrat, and turn it into constructive energy, because you are either the most blindly partisan person I've ever met, or just stupid in your hatred...Which is it?

(in reply to MarsBonfire)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 10:12:10 AM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

I support the war in Afghanistan and I think using these causlties as political footballs to score political points [by both sides] is distasteful in the extreme. THese people gave their lives for their country and what they believed in [irrespective if you agree with their beliefs or not] raping their memory to stick it to the opposition is disgusting.


I 'marginally' agree here but am against the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

What I find especially distasteful is the assumption that the men and women in the military are somehow more expedient than the rest of us, and that they sometimes have to die to be honoured or receive any sort of acknowledgement or gratitude for their service. And also the assumption that they strongly believe in the politics du jour.

But you know, these people didn't sign up to die, they signed up to serve. They are not cannon fodder, or at least they shouldn't be, for all NATO member forces are highly trained, highly skilled and professional and they go about their jobs, serve and fulfill their roles trying to cause as little loss of human life and casualties as possible - both civilian and military.

Indeed if our politicians came up with even half the same degree of professionalism, dedication and motivation to serve as those in the military we might be getting somewhere.

In my opinion if they are engaged in service, in uniform and signed up they are already giving their lives and I'm inclined to believe that every single death of our servicemen and women isn't 'part of the job' but a tragedy.

Let us also spare a thought for the other casualties, i.e. the living ones - those who are injured, disabled, who succumb to psychological issues such as PTSD and who all too often leave service to meet disability, unemployment, destitution, and homelessness.

They may be in their hostels or cardboard boxes in some shop doorway but when night comes often so does the memories of combat, action and the trauma involved. They remember.

And I feel that we should too.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Starbuck09)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 10:17:08 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

And I don't have time for the game, Merc. You enjoy.
Except you did, just a couple of minutes later. See - sometime, over time, a hammer can fall up!
quote:

The hurdles to accomplishing it is your baby.
You say time is but one of the hurdles and now say what they are is my "baby"? I think it best that you left and rebooted.

As I've said, I think the responses (especially since they aren't answers) are very enjoyable as well as enlightening. When you and the other supporters of this Congress and Administration are forced to address the reflection of your position, you insure that the proper message is getting out. The Administration and a filibuster proof majority in place are all rhetoric without substance. That is the obvious message being conveyed as more and more disappointment is generated from the actions taken in Washington. Your attempt at misdirection only support that the coalition that put these indentured servants of special interests and PACS in place is breaking up. Rhetoric in lieu of substance was talked about during the campaign, we are living through that analysis being correct.

But lets move on...

quote:

in consideration the consequences, I'd equally be curious.
Your non-answer considered I'd be happy to.

You set a false assumption in your question, or at least a different standard than you hold the Obama Administration and Congress. Was the question of consequence considered when the promises were made during the campaign. Is that a rhetorical or sophomoric question?

However, without concern that you have kept whatever "consequences" you have in mind secret; I'm still happy to give you my opinion. However, not being the President or a member of Congress, my position regarding "consequence" should be considered similarly to my opinion regarding what to do on 9/12/01.

We're I elected on January 20th, right after the sign in, I'd sign an executive order to send everything that floated, flew, or had the ability to cross the terrain and carry personnel over to Iran and pick up each and every US soldier deployed. Later that same afternoon, I let the drug lords and corrupt local officials in Afghanistan know, "Its been fun, but on the way by, I'll be picking up any troops deployed there also." It would be my stated stance, that the returning troops will man the US borders, on the ground and in the air, and become a visible presence defending at all borders, against terrorists, illegal aliens, drugs; whatever. I'd announce the release effective February 1st of all GITMO detainees and give the time between January 20th and February 1st for any country to either take them off our hands, or welcome them as returning heroes. In lieu of any takers, I'd send them back to whatever country they hold citizenship. On January 21st I'd get in front of the people who elected me, and say; "This is what you voted for - lets move on!"

You don't ask, but the first move would be the 'health-care' issue. I'd sign another executive order opening up every Military facility to any US citizen without coverage. If need be I'd set up military tents in every major city until more facilities could be built. The money saved from foreign intervention should cover the cost, but if not, I'd institute my 'Medical Domestic Corp' idea and staff the project with medical personal who participated in the paid education program.

Since I brought up illegal aliens, on that issue I'd implement a $100,000 fine for the first offense against anyone hiring a worker with fraudulent paperwork or no work papers at all. Second offense - surrendering of all property and 2 Years in jail. I'd figure out what to do against any individual or corporation foolish enough to get a third offense. The workers, would be sent back to their countries of origin.

But that's all bullshit.

You see MM, the question is pointed to the Administration. Unlike me, they have the power, Congressional support, and until lately the mobilized constituency to actual do what candidate Obama represented he would do prior to election. As much as I'm critical of him, I didn't expect any better. I knew he was beholding to too many PAC and special interest groups to affect any change. I'm more critical and disappointed in the constituency.

This was, and perhaps still is, an opportunity to recognize the lack of influence in the hands of the general voting public. I hoped that now, with a clear representation of no change regardless of the political party in power, that the anger, excitement, and desire to charge would stay mobilized to cast the only vote that would effect change. Simply put, that vote is NO! 'No' to the reelection of any candidate.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/18/2009 10:41:16 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 10:49:04 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

It's great for sophistry, but pointless for substantive debate.
Nice try MM, I think the lack of answers to this question in the OP;
Do the same people who saw US intervention as a major embarrassment for the US now see these occupations as positive representations of their political position?
speaks to the discomfort, and the hypocrisy, of those formally here daily posting 'anti-war', 'anti-Bush', rhetoric. It must have been rhetoric and not actual sentiment, or else the change in administration would not have eliminated the protest or general outcry.

You see sophistry? I see documented, political party based hypocrisy.


Merc I didnt see anyone claim that President Obama would end the war instantly, I didnt see the man himself claim that in his campaign either. You talk about political bias, are you really suggesting all republicans were happy with the invasion of Iraq ?

Many on here said the same as I did, that the invasion of Afghanistan was valid, the invasion of Iraq was not. Bush and Blair had decided Saddam had to go, the weapons of mass detraction were just that. One of the main consequenses of the Iraq invasion, was not having enough troops or material to get the job in Afghanistan finished sooner.

Blaiming Obama for the current situation doesnt absolve Bush or Blair of their mistake.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 11:11:11 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

You talk about political bias, are you really suggesting all republicans were happy with the invasion of Iraq ?
In case there is any doubt; my only political bias is my bias that neither political party represents the best interests of me as an individual or the US as a whole.

quote:

that the invasion of Afghanistan was valid
As is the ongoing occupation, the deployment of 20,000 more troops, and the ongoing, as other put it, "murder of innocent locals"? Just want to be clear that meets your expectation for this Administration.

quote:

the current situation doesnt absolve Bush or Blair of their mistake.
Perhaps this gets us to the crux of the matter. What I am most surprised is this Administration and Congress continuing with the policies that you reference as Bush or Blair "mistakes". They must disagree with your basic assessment that they were mistakes or else they would do something different. After all, who has the power or ability to stop them? The death toll in Afghanistan and Iraq, both civilian and military, is not a result of Bush or Blair mistakes, but of the conscience decision of this Administration and Congress to continue down the same path you consider a "mistake". Based upon the campaign rhetoric was it a mistake to think, and hope, that another different course of action would be forthcoming?

The only change associated with those mistakes is the silence from those formally at the forefront of protest. I think that current situation deserves some scrutiny; if for no other reason, than to reference the hypocrisy of their position more associated with a political party and agenda versus the pragmatic results.

I'll leave absolution to whatever particular deity claiming the ability.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/18/2009 11:12:37 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 11:29:24 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

How is noting the contradiction between what the guy I did not vote for campaigned on ,and his actions, after victory with a filibuster proof majority in both houses, an indication that I support the rhetoric he campaigned on?


No. Please note my use of the conditional "if" and "would." No such assumption made.

(in reply to rightwinghippie)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids h... - 8/18/2009 11:32:07 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

You say time is but one of the hurdles


Never said any such thing, Merc.

quote:

and now say what they are is my "baby"?


Yes.

quote:

without concern that you have kept whatever "consequences" you have in mind secret


I would think addressing issues of leaving behind stable governments and the original Al-Qaeda issue would be self-evident. If you need them pointed out, consider it done.

I enjoy discussions with people who disagree. You are just being silly. Disingenuously, I believe. Ignorantly if you wish.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/18/2009 11:35:55 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 80
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