RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/21/2009 3:28:54 PM)

quote:

You then appreciate the false and untrue. I simply made an analogy to the fact that no "one" person was held accountable then.
No need to back away from your position on my account. You hold the commanders in the field accountable to the level of Nazi prison camp commanders. I don't hold neither them, nor the President by that standard, and simply want him to use his ability to end the ongoing bloodshed. No commander in the field has that ability, President Obama does.

How that changes if I was or wasn't enamored with the President you'll have to explain to me. I'm not in a position or need to "absolve" anyone. My stance is pointed at the only person able to change the status quo, the President, the 'Commander-in-Chief'.

I'm not holding the President responsible for something that occurred "decades" ago - just today and tomorrow, and every day that goes by with an escalating casualty toll.



Loki45 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/21/2009 3:39:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
No need to back away from your position on my account. You hold the commanders in the field accountable to the level of Nazi prison camp commanders.


I'm not backing away from anything other than your incorrect insinuation that I was referring to our troops as though they were nazis. However, you can and do spin more than a record so by all means, continue to assert that despite my explaination otherwise. Insinuations and incorrect assertions are really all that you have left when you see that I'm right that you want to hold the President and ONLY the President accountable for something that hundreds of others had a hand in.

Was it just Bush that was punished for Abu Ghraib? No. It was commanders, lieutenants and even the troops themselves. So if Bush was not 'solely responsible' for that incident, it's absolutely asinine to imply that Obama is 'solely responsible' for anything that happens today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I'm not holding the President responsible for something that occurred "decades" ago - just today and tomorrow, and every day that goes by with an escalating casualty toll.


Really? Because when Obama told the commanding general in iraq to reduce his forces, the general was AGAINST it. Hmmm......seems like it's not just the president that's sending our troops into harm's way, now is it?



Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/21/2009 3:53:21 PM)

quote:

Was it just Bush that was punished for Abu Ghraib? No. It was commanders, lieutenants and even the troops themselves. So if Bush was not 'solely responsible' for that incident, it's absolutely asinine to imply that Obama is 'solely responsible' for anything that happens today.
"Just Bush"?

When Bush was the Commander-in-Chief he had the ability to end the conflict in Iraq. He didn't and he was held accountable. That same responsibility is now Obama's.

Illegal activities, such as the Nazi's or Abu Ghraib, are attributed to both the leadership AND the protagonists. As the ultimate commander, Bush has ultimate responsibility and suffered if not the legal consequence incurred by the commanders and soldiers, the accountability. President Bush did not choose to leave Iraq. Mr. Bush can't do anything about it. Which makes referencing him irrelevant other than to point out your bias.
quote:

Really? Because when Obama told the commanding general in iraq to reduce his forces, the general was AGAINST it. Hmmm......seems like it's not just the president that's sending our troops into harm's way, now is it?
Yes the General's position is a recommendation to his commander. The President's decision would be an order to the General which he would either follow or be Court Marshalled.

The question and resulting recommendation does not change the fact of who is in charge. Although, if anything, it speaks toward leadership and not the pragmatic chain of command.



Loki45 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/21/2009 4:32:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
"Just Bush"?

When Bush was the Commander-in-Chief he had the ability to end the conflict in Iraq. He didn't and he was held accountable. That same responsibility is now Obama's.


And unless Obama has a teleporter I'm not aware of, he can't 'magically' make the troops disappear from iraq. See that takes time. The discussion between Obama and the general points to the fact that he's reducing the troops in iraq for an evental complete removal. Yet you don't want to see that. You just want to sit back and blame him for everything.

Illogical, irrational, and a waste of my time.



Loki45 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/21/2009 4:45:11 PM)

Before I leave this thread to its own asinine stupidity, I'll just take a moment to point out that it's people like you who are the reason America's enemies know that we won't do what is neccessary to win a war. In the days of WWII, the American people were ready, willing and able to do whatever it took. That ended just before Vietnam.

Now, if you lose a 'certain' number of troops, supposedly it's not worth fighting. Fuck the country's security, fuck an entire region's stability, fuck it all. If blood is spilled, it's not worth it.

I'm damned glad we didn't have that mindset in 1942. If we did, we'd be speaking Japanese or German right now.



Mercnbeth -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/21/2009 4:54:58 PM)

quote:

I'll just take a moment to point out that it's people like you who are the reason America's enemies know that we won't do what is neccessary to win a war. In the days of WWII, the American people were ready, willing and able to do whatever it took.
I don't equate the war against Japan and Germany to the war to protect the oil fields and whatever it is we are doing in Afghanistan. However, if the same mentality was employed, the atomic bomb in the case of Japan and the use of millions of troops in Europe; I'd consider supporting either of those efforts. Are you now saying the absolute victory those actions generated compares to what is occurring?

However when, as was the case in Vietnam, "winning" was defined by how much money went to military contractors, oil companies, or other special interest groups who paid for the political campaigns of politicians, I'll protest against the use of military personal and economic resources to do so. I'll hold the commander-in-chief responsible for each and every casualty, in my opinion, wasted for the cause of PAC's and special interests.



MarsBonfire -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/22/2009 8:37:14 AM)

Loki, the two wars have crippled our economy, and the Iraq conflict has been going on longer now than WWII did. It's more than just losing "x" number of troops... it's our realization that we are caught in a quagmire, and it will suck us down as a country if it isn't brought to an end.

At least now, eight years after the fact of that awful Tuesday morning, we're concentrating on those who are esponsible for the attack... And not just carrying out a "pre-emptive war" against a soverign nation that had NOTHING to do with 9-11... and were, in fact, enemies of the Taliban.



subrob1967 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/22/2009 4:09:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Loki, the two wars have crippled our economy, and the Iraq conflict has been going on longer now than WWII did. It's more than just losing "x" number of troops... it's our realization that we are caught in a quagmire, and it will suck us down as a country if it isn't brought to an end.

At least now, eight years after the fact of that awful Tuesday morning, we're concentrating on those who are esponsible for the attack... And not just carrying out a "pre-emptive war" against a soverign nation that had NOTHING to do with 9-11... and were, in fact, enemies of the Taliban.


Do you ever get tired of being wrong? How many times has Obama's military attacked targets in Pakistan? Last time I looked, Pakistan was an ally.



Lorr47 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/22/2009 4:26:51 PM)

quote:

I'm damned glad we didn't have that mindset in 1942. If we did, we'd be speaking Japanese or German right now.


I believe Pearl Harbor occurred on December 7, 1941 with Congress declaring war the next day.  About a week later Hitler declared war on the US and the US reciprocated shortly thereafter.  1941.   Please do not confuse me.



Lorr47 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/22/2009 4:31:30 PM)

quote:

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? How many times has Obama's military attacked targets in Pakistan? Last time I looked, Pakistan was an ally.


In the last year there has been a lot of debate about whether Pakistan is actually our ally.

I think Mars may be referring to those pesky cruise missiles that have been going off course and exploding in Pakistan.  Do I think we are wrong in using such defective missiles?  No.  However, lets be honest about what is going on.



rulemylife -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/22/2009 7:15:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? How many times has Obama's military attacked targets in Pakistan? Last time I looked, Pakistan was an ally.



You should have looked more closely.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Bush 'approved' Pakistan attacks

President George W Bush has authorised US military raids against militants inside Pakistan without prior approval from Islamabad, the BBC has learned.



subrob1967 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 1:47:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
You should have looked more closely.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Bush 'approved' Pakistan attacks

President George W Bush has authorised US military raids against militants inside Pakistan without prior approval from Islamabad, the BBC has learned.


Actually, it's you who should have looked more closely, because if you did, you would have found that I never whined about Bush attacking anyone, unlike Mr Mars, who whines about everything Repubs do, but turns a blind eye yo Obammy, and his Demodouches



SpinnerofTales -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 7:46:55 AM)

quote:

but turns a blind eye yo Obammy, and his Demodouches ORIGINAL: subrob1967


Might I strongly suggest that you take a read of Merc's posts and then examine your own. While I have disagreed with Merc on just about every word he's written, his posts add to a conversation with a) logically constructed reasoning. b) facts that can be examined and discussed and c) a complete lack of "bumper sticker" thinking where in inflammatory slogans take the place of reasoned argument.

On the other hand "Obammy  and his Demoduches" adds nothing to the conversation other than warning us that your opinions are not something we need to waste our time considering.

If you want to advance your position and do some good for the causes you believe in, may I suggest you try to raise the quality of your communications. As it stands now, you're just dumbing down the conversation.




rulemylife -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 7:50:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
You should have looked more closely.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Bush 'approved' Pakistan attacks

President George W Bush has authorised US military raids against militants inside Pakistan without prior approval from Islamabad, the BBC has learned.


Actually, it's you who should have looked more closely, because if you did, you would have found that I never whined about Bush attacking anyone, unlike Mr Mars, who whines about everything Repubs do, but turns a blind eye yo Obammy, and his Demodouches



Yes, which is exactly the point you seem to have missed.

You are criticizing Obama for a policy started by Bush.



lally2 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 11:42:18 AM)

isnt it always the case though.  that prior to election these politicians will mollify the emotive public in anyway atall that will bring in the votes.

now i dont know, i cant tell you, but here in the UK just recently 'they' have gone to great pains to explain why we are in afghanistan and why we were in iraq.  soldiers in the war, leading the assaults have been interviewed.  it might well be political expediency - an attempt at whitewash - or (and i can hardly believe it) we are being given the truth because the electorate was demanding it. (sceptism aside for a minute)

based on that truth, obama was lieing through his teeth to mollify the electorate.  an electorate that at the time had been fed bollox by bush and was about sick of it.  but.  given the 'truth' as we are being fed it at the moment - there is no way obama had any intention of pulling out of the middle east or afghanistan because the war on terrorism cannot be dropped.  the boys over there are keeping the taliban over there so darned busy any attempts at a concerted effort against the general public (us) is largely out of the question - apparently.

so the possible upshot of all of this, from the information we seem to have at the moment:

we achieved a tense peace in iraq.  the premis for going in, was in my view a big fat lie.  nevertheless, against the number of folk butchered by sadam over the years compared to the numbers killed since just dont bare any comparison atall.  entire communities, women and children were butchered by the man and even if we were lied to by bush because he'd promised to get back at the perpetrators of 7/11 and couldnt find bin laden for love nor money, sadam was the obvious and emotive next best option. 

the Taliban are in cahoots with Al Quaeda, they are also terrorists and have been beating up the people of afghanistan their culture and their peaceful society for 30 long years.  they want a democracy and we the (questionable) experts in such matters are there to help them.

whats the option tho merc - we leave afghanistan and allow the Taliban and the Al Quaeda enough breathing space to come back at us again and again and again - forever and ever and ever.



Sanity -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 12:24:47 PM)


Let al-Qaeda and their cohorts have Afghanistan and the nuclear weapons and the military of Pakistan, even all the black gold underneath the Middle East so that they may fully fund their exploitation of weaker peoples and nations well as their militant conquests into new territories all over the planet.

That will last for a few years, and then we will once again have to go back in.

Either that, or we finally find the cahones to finish what Bush started, and help these people to freedom.




scarlethiney -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 3:58:05 PM)

quote:

quote:

Which is why I take issue with the assinine question in the OP to begin with.

Trying to answer it is a very curious way to show it.

PS - It is 'asinine'; unless you are being self labeling.


You are obviously very familiar with the definition and spelling Merc...................no surprise here.  Let me guess.......you work at being obnoxious, you are simply not creative enough for it to come naturally.



subrob1967 -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 4:06:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Yes, which is exactly the point you seem to have missed.

You are criticizing Obama for a policy started by Bush.



No. I'm not, I am calling out Mars for his hypocricy, I never bashed Obammy for attacking Pakistan, I just brought up the fact that Obammy attacked a soverign nation that had nothing to do with the september 11th attack, and killed innocent civillians, including children



scarlethiney -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 4:16:32 PM)

 [/quote]

While I have disagreed with Merc on just about every word he's written, his posts add to a conversation with a) logically constructed reasoning. b) facts that can be examined and discussed and c) a complete lack of "bumper sticker" thinking where in inflammatory slogans take the place of reasoned argument.

[/quote]

With regard to your comments about the OP, exactly what drugs are you taking??  I want to be sure to avoid those.
Nothing the OP posts is logically constructed reasoning. It is just more of his Napoleonic, posturing and obnoxious remarks aimed at creating drama. 
I doubt any one will see a post he begins that is aimed at  sincere, thoughtful, conversation and not a platform for his snarky replies.



tazzygirl -> RE: "Hey, Obama, What do you say - How many kids have you killed today?" (8/23/2009 4:49:17 PM)

maybe im too far out of the loop.... and too tired... new job and all that.

but, i thought there was a withdraw of sorts in Iraq. didnt they get pulled back? and didnt Obama say they would be out by next August?



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