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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 7:44:12 AM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

He is asking me more to accept that I already do this. He is confronting my own perceptions about myself and what I do.

lovingpet

It simply looks like you fit his perception of *wonderful*....he calls that *slave*. He sees things in you and your responses, that say to him * MY wonderful slave*.

I saw nothing in your posts to suggest he sees you as a *slave in general*.

I fit M's perception of a *slave to him* .......I can only agree with that because it's his determination. If he says I do, then I do. I agree that in his eyes, I am indeed a slave to him, with him/for him.

It doesn't change a single thing about the way I view myself .

I might be far from the mark......but it looks like you're confusing *Him SEEING you as a slave*with *BEING a slave in general*.

I viewed M as my Master long before he viewed himself as my Master. THAT also didn't change how HE viewed himself. He's very much my Master in both our perceptions now but we are years down the line now.

Is he not describing the reasons that you are not a *submissive to HIM* but a *slave to HIM*, based on your responses? These are HIS perceptions of slave and submissive .....if you accept that he has his own determinations for these things and accept that you have your own, all the contortions and confusion slips away.

You feel that slave is a *loaded word* for him.........Still, I just sit here and try to imagine that somewhere he thinks I am capable of something of that magnitude and I just fly into a mess.....It's a loaded word for you BOTH.

What ARE all these expectations , what is this *something of magnitude*?.............It's been said before by other people but the ONLY thing that matters is what you you HAVE. In some ways both of you are causing a hiccough over a label, a word, when you really just need *the two of us*.

Quote....
Unless someone can show me that I have put this together wrong, I have to accept a lot of hard things to take that name of slave.
Unquote

I saw from your posts that he was saying you ARE BEING a *slave to him* already.......not that he has expectations aplenty. Has it been *hard* to date?

agirl

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 8:34:04 AM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
In truth, all of this is just dictionary games. Carol is ultimately my slave because it tickles my fancy to call her that.

That's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned - there's a time and place for semantic analysis, but I felt that what my Master chose to call me, and his perception of the dynamic, was more important than what my abstract definitions were. I'm devoted to him, and try my best to do everything he wants of me, and there is definitely a strong ownership/possessiveness dynamic involved. Someone else might consider me to be a submissive instead, but since I'm not *their* submissive or *their* slave, they don't get any say in it, and their views just don't matter.

Lovingpet, before I agreed to become his slave, we talked a lot about what his expectations were (of submissives vs. slaves), how it would actually affect our lives together, etc. We talked a lot about *his* limits and views on various things (D/s, BDSM, and vanilla aspects). I really trust him, and he's been able to stay just below the threshold of what scares me and inspire me to progress very quickly without fear to a very deep level. I feel very much driven by his will, controlled by him, and it's usually pretty effortless - I sometimes struggle against my own physical or emotional limitations, and ask for his help with them, but I don't feel any inclination to struggle against *him*.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 8/17/2009 8:50:14 AM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 9:19:44 AM

Mercnbeth

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when we met, this slave had zero experience with the labels folks use to define themselves in a relationship dynamic other than spouse, fiancee, partner, girl-or-boyfriend. at 36, she had never heard the terms Dom/me, submissive/slave, top/bottom, switch, etc.

thanks to the interweb, this slave discovered a label for what she had been doing all of her life---her knee jerk reaction to the world around her and everything in it---folks called it "submissive", and some actually CHOSE to do it, against what they considered to be their nature. even more amazing---there were folks who fantasized about it, wanted to learn how to do it and others who sought out partners with that inclination!!!

a few weeks after discovering all these terms and relationship dynamics this slave had previously been unaware of, she met Master...someone with decades of experience. His perception of "slave" was this slave's perception of "submissive".

in the 6 years that this slave has participated in this Master/slave relationship, the CM message board, munches, gatherings, dungeons, conventions, etc. she has formed an opinion of what the dividing line is...for her.
submissive---a state of being one is or chooses to be, the depth and breadth of which is particular to the individual.
slave---a participant in an Owner/owned, Master/slave relationship, who may or may not be submissive, who yields to their partner's authority.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 9:41:20 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I would absolutely LOVE to give you my personal definitions for these items, but, as many know, I am not one for labels.

Labels are far too maligned in common thought. They are informative tools. They are like movie previews. With rare exceptions, no one would decry the previews as bunk because they do not adequately reflect every facet of the movie. It's understood that they are a brief enticing summation to the whole. The same should be the case with "labels".

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I don't even have a definition for what that term means in any formal sense for myself! What the heck do I do with this??? My first fall back position in response to him was that I was NOT a slave, but a submissive. He went on to tell me all the reasons why that just was not so. He asked me what was so troubling to me about being called a slave. I had no answer. Again, how could I?

I'm sure others have addressed this but it seems like this is just a matter of aversion to whatever negative connotations you've ascribed to the term in your head. You're saying you don't have (at least) a partial definition for the word "slave" in your head...but you do if you can so clerly state that you are not one.

That strikes me not as having no structure for what the word means but rather having no structure for why you are supposed to "not" be one when other factors may indicate that it is possibly so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

So. what is the dividing line between submissive and slave?

Few ever like giving some clear definitions for this. It irks me. For the same reason people who say they can't define porn but know it when they see it irks me (a lot).

As you have discovered, the implications and expectations of a D-type will normally be greater from a slave than a sub. The simply way to describe it would be degree of devotion and degree of surrender: so there is the expectation that you would weather a greater storm, as a slave, in trying to make the relationship work than you would as a sub and that you will give up more of yourself unto his control and guidance as a slave.

The variances come via the fact that in order to determine where these differences and expectations will be drawn, you'll need to ask your individual partner (as every D-type will want/expect different things).

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I guess what I am asking for is an exaughstive delineation of submissive dynamic compared and contrasted to slave dynamic at each individual level, the relationship level, “lifestyle” level, and overall theoretical level.

There isn't an exhaustive one...only a clear one. I delineated it above. The problem is, to get to the exhaustive part, you have to build all the brickwork around the core based on the specific wants, needs and desires of your Dom.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/17/2009 9:42:31 AM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 9:54:27 AM

Rainfire

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lovingpet, for the record, let me state that I just read the OP and not the entire 7 pages yet of the thread. So some may or may not have said what I'm about to.....

I can only talk about our personal experiences but what we are finding is that I am a sub with slave tendencies. For us, that means that I have taken on some slave-like qualities in that I don't question, just accept, and do what He says without thinking. Some say that the main difference between a sub and slave is the ability to say no. Lumus once told me that He saw it as a sub has conditional intent where a slave is to serve, with trust, and rational limits set by the Dominant. That's pretty much where we're at, except that we still say that I'm sub - not slave. However, if looked at closely, most would probably say we're at the slave level. Don't know how we got there - it sure wasn't planned.

It hasn't changed our dynamic, unless you consider that it's grown and deepened with time. Just yesterday I was asked how in the world I could just be so patient and tolerant of certain decisions Lumus has made and kept quiet?

How do you explain to family members who don't know about our lifestyle choice that I'm His submissive, as well as wife and partner? And that for us - part of that is keeping my big mouth shut at times, even if I disagree? He knows i'll speak up if I feel strongly about something, I'll say my thoughts and feelings and still let Him make the decision, even if I don't like it.

So in a nutshell, I would say that what has changed has been my mindset. Even when I didn't know or realize it. He saw it long before I did. It's something that my brain wants to dispute but my heart says yes, scary as that is. I think that part of that fear is that the very word "slave" has such connotations over the years and history, that it scares the crap out of some us to feel that we are giving up part of that essence that makes us US yet in reality, we are claiming a part of us and accepting that yes - we are freely giving up that part of us to someOne who has earned that right (privilege, maybe?) to claim us as theirs.

I don't know if that makes sense or not; you know what I'm going through here right now and I'm not sure at times that I make sense.

This is one of those "pain" days but I can't do anything about it until Lumus gets home - I gots Mr. Smarties here and a ton of work to do.

Message me if ya need to!

**edited because by the time I got this darn thing posted, it was 7 pages and not the 5 it was when I started - hours ago.**

< Message edited by Rainfire -- 8/17/2009 9:55:31 AM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 10:09:56 AM

lovingpet

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I agree that this really isn't a situation where he is expecting anything new from me, but just naming what is already there. In his terms, I am what he says I am. He has spelled out very clearly more than a few times what those things are that brought him to place that concept as a good fit for me when it comes to him. It is about being HIS and he knows that, though mostly submissive in my natural response to the world around me, it goes much further with him AND my motives are not the same either.

Like the title of this thread denotes, nothing has been hard or forced as far as the relationship and the dynamics are concerned. I have undergone some hard things in terms of play and self examination. As for having to somehow make myself accept his control, no, that's never been an issue. It's not a heart thing I'm struggling with. It's definitely a head thing, thinking where doing would serve me better.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 10:26:08 AM

lovingpet

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I think my discovery of all this was kind of just a nod like, "Oh, so that's what it's called." The thought that followed after was the realization that I was already responding to my world that way, to my detriment, and that there was a real and healthy way of living out that part of myself. It didn't have to be something that hurt my life, but could enhance it. I am a very bookish type, so I started reading anything and everything I could find. I did this for around a year before I stumbled upon CM. That chain of events flowed from one thing to the next to the next, but all in all I had two years of "education" in all this before I ever had that first "real" experience. In other words, I had waaaaaay too much time to get all worked up about it all.

Now here I am. Sure I know a kind of sense of what these terms are. I have nothing specific necessarily. I just have a bunch of overblown terms that all just fine when everyone else uses them, but on me, I just don't know. Considering that I was so glad to have found a name for "it" when I first came upon this, it is quite ironic to be shirking those names now.

For him it seems to be my thought of self when serving him that makes that distinction. It is only one of the things, but he has noted, and correctly, that I go as far as he wants or needs me to go, not as far as I feel I can go. I do or say things that are for him and him alone. My thought of self is more or less nonexistent when I am with him.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 10:41:32 AM

lovingpet

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I will be the first to admit that when I feel any kind of REAL emotional response my first inlcination is to try to oppose it. It isn't that I have some idea I am running from, but that I have to NOT be this or that because it makes me feel. I feel too an extreme pitch the moment he says that word to me. My instinct is to outrun it. I have my own collateral damage that I have done a lot of work on, but some things are harder to change than others.

When it comes to these degrees of devotion and surrender, that's where I get all flustered. I am just doing and I really don't consider it as anything significant. He clearly sees it otherwise. It is something that has just deepened and grown with time. He sees these changes and he views who I am today and how I respond to him now as much more closely resembling who I actually am than that girl of a year or so ago. This feels truer to him. He sees me happier and more settled as things go along. He also sees these degrees increasing too. There would be a logical link. It is not something I've become to him, but rather something I am discovering about myself.

I guess I just make up excuses. He has told me, again many times, what he expects and what life will look like with him at the controls the way he insists upon it being. I seem to think I can add to this and make it even more impossible than it already seems. I have told him it looks impossible and he tells me that it is only EXACTLY what I am already doing. So why is it so scary spelled out? I have no idea.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 10:54:09 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainfire

It hasn't changed our dynamic, unless you consider that it's grown and deepened with time. <<snip>>
So in a nutshell, I would say that what has changed has been my mindset. Even when I didn't know or realize it. He saw it long before I did. It's something that my brain wants to dispute but my heart says yes, scary as that is. <<snip>> it scares the crap out of some us to feel that we are giving up part of that essence that makes us US yet in reality, we are claiming a part of us and accepting that yes - we are freely giving up that part of us to someOne who has earned that right (privilege, maybe?) to claim us as theirs.

It's the same with us. And it really is my own view of things that has had to change. He has a handle on me pretty quickly. I would LOVE to say, no, you're wrong about me, but to date he hasn't been. Yes, my heart goes into leaps at that word. Then all that built up "knowledge" kicks in and tells me there is no possible way I can ever be that because it is too much. Too much how? I don't know, but just too much. It isn't and it will be just fine if I can just get over my panic and leave it up to him to guide me through it all.

I don't know how I FEEL about this part I would be claiming. Do I really want it even if it is a part of me? It's the giving up and the claiming that get me. What is this part of myself? What is it like? Since it is part of me, how must my image of myself and my beliefs about myself have to change in order for it to fit as a legitimate part of the whole? No matter how much I may WANT to be THAT, I have to come to a place where it fits and makes sense.

Hugs darlin! I know it's been a time for you lately! Hopes that you will be feeling better soon!

lovingpet

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/17/2009 11:33:46 AM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I really trust him, and he's been able to stay just below the threshold of what scares me and inspire me to progress very quickly without fear to a very deep level. I feel very much driven by his will, controlled by him, and it's usually pretty effortless - I sometimes struggle against my own physical or emotional limitations, and ask for his help with them, but I don't feel any inclination to struggle against *him*.

I guess for me, ther e is no fear when I am with him. The fear creeps and seaps when I am back home and start thinking over everything. Then I want to know what this means and what that means and what if I'm okay enough now and on an on I go. I wouldn't say I'm afraid, but he chooses confrontation because I will stay mired in a stupid concept instead of finally making it reality forever it seems. Once it's real, every single time, I'm okay with it. It's not scary anymore. He has given me alI I need. Like you, it is never a fight against him, his control, or his expectations. It is always an internal battle and, of anyone else, he is the one I want to help me through to the other side and put me all back together when I am done my own destructive course. He would much prefer, however, that I just let him take me through it all safely in the first place.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/18/2009 8:21:36 AM

Rainfire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

It's the same with us. And it really is my own view of things that has had to change. He has a handle on me pretty quickly. I would LOVE to say, no, you're wrong about me, but to date he hasn't been. Yes, my heart goes into leaps at that word. Then all that built up "knowledge" kicks in and tells me there is no possible way I can ever be that because it is too much. Too much how? I don't know, but just too much. It isn't and it will be just fine if I can just get over my panic and leave it up to him to guide me through it all.

I don't know how I FEEL about this part I would be claiming. Do I really want it even if it is a part of me? It's the giving up and the claiming that get me. What is this part of myself? What is it like? Since it is part of me, how must my image of myself and my beliefs about myself have to change in order for it to fit as a legitimate part of the whole? No matter how much I may WANT to be THAT, I have to come to a place where it fits and makes sense.

Hugs darlin! I know it's been a time for you lately! Hopes that you will be feeling better soon!

lovingpet

WHY must it change? I understand about wanting to understand feelings and trying to figure out what in the world you're even feeling but do those feelings CHANGE anything? They're there, just because we experience something, even scary, does that mean it's bad? Why not accept that they are there, this is how you feel and go on? I know - not easily done (she says from personal experience!) but sometimes, dwelling on something only brings bad results, when we get ourselves all worked up over the proverbial tempest in a teapot. Or if we get too worked up, we miss what we have already. Does everything in this crazy world make sense? Nope, just look at kittens and little children.

Would it help to just take a small break from examining your feelings and just let them be, let them age, stew, grow, shrink, whatever they do naturally. Then come back in a set time, like a week or 2, and see how they are doing. The time may have given you that chance to accept and realize what isn't quite yet making sense, now makes perfect sense. Sometimes, our Men just understand us better than we understand ourselves.

{{{hugs}}}

ETA - can you tell I've been here myself? *chuckles*

< Message edited by Rainfire -- 8/18/2009 8:22:12 AM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/18/2009 2:30:32 PM

lovingpet

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Hey there Rain!

I can't really explain here the why's of some of my own beliefs about myself having to change. Sufficed to say, they do. Whether or not change is good or bad or just simply change is anyone's guess at this point. I have to get very honest with myself about some things, which in and of itself is not a bad thing. What that reveals, who knows at this point? I am ready to just say, good or bad, I have a hand to hold as I get through it all and I know I can trust him to be there and help me through it all. How much more could I really ask for?

He does get me and on a level that is just totally unfair! LOL I give him one little string and he can unravel a mile of hidden stuff. It's wonderful! It's irritating!

We've talked YET AGAIN (yeah, I know, hopeless I am) and I am much more settled with things. I still have a lot of questions and am still working some things out for myself. I think maybe there are always new little things that we find along the way that we then have to find how they all work together in us over and over again. The part that lets me rest and not be quite as..... crazy..... as I was at the beginning is that I know he is right there working it all out alongside me. I'm a very lucky girl!

lovingpet

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