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"Fifties household" and TPE - 8/31/2009 7:25:10 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		This is somewhat inspired by, though not really relevant to, the "what is vanilla" thread, which I just read with great interest.

Historical background:  I've been bouncing around in BDSMland for about 12 years.  I started out on usenet (does anyone here remember usenet? [feeling elderly]), already in its latter days by then, I guess, and 12 years ago the place for these things on usenet was soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm, the successor group to alt.sex.bondage, which had by then been abandoned to spam.  There were other places for perverts to congregate, I'm sure, but this was distinctive as far as I could tell for being a serious discussion forum, where other places were more about chatrooms and socializing.

Circa 1999 there had come to be enough noisy conflict on s.s.b-b between TPE types (I believe the term TPE was coined on alt.sex. bondage, actually?) and everyone else that M/s people formed their own usenet group.  Before long this too was overrun by spam and everyone fled again to various more manageable yahoo-type-groups, (before pervy yahoo groups became unfindable-- there were also other group hosting sites at that time which yahoo later acquired), a particularly notorious one of which was run by Jon Jacobs... another of which was spun off from there and became Internal Enslavement...   and so on and so forth.  I wasn't taking notes at the time, so I can't be trusted to reproduce the details accurately. 

During the years when I was reading this stuff devotedly (maybe 99-02) I remember precisely One Guy, out of gajillions of TPE-inclined guys (and girls) whose stuff I read, who identified as a devotee of "50s household."   Somehow, for all those people, even though they were overwhelmingly maledom/femsub, given the way those particular groups had defined themselves, only this One Guy was defining his relationship as a fulfillment of traditional gender roles.  (I leave aside here a couple of Goreans who also used to frequent these venues, only because while they were clearly interested in traditional roles, they were (obviously) not in the least rooting them in the 1950s.)  Everyone else was defining things in terms of essentially subly/slave-y nature vs. masterly nature, plus all the other usual stuff that comes up when TPE is discussed.

Now, by contrast...  I perceive that some (to me) weird convergence has happened, whereby some proportion of seekers (and doers?  I'm less sure about that) conflate TPE and 50s household.  I recently listed 50s hh as a hard limit in my profile (I am not June Cleaver and cannot be made into her), and have been accosted by people who wonder how I can even tentatively think of myself as someone enslaveable if I give that as a limit.  (not because as a slave I should have no limits, but because that particular limit makes no sense in any slavery context).  I've also been temporarily seduced by persons who sound like they "get it" in the same way I do, but, again, for whom "slave" = housekeeper + sex, at the bottom of things. 

I'm not in the least suggesting that 50s hh and TPE don't potentially overlap, or that there aren't couples out there beyond that One Guy of long ago who are blissfully happy with traditional gender roles.  But since when does TPE *equal* June Cleaver??  Even if you give her some some kinks??

Has any one else noticed such a trend over the past 10 yrs or so?  What do you think of it?  What do you think led to it?  Or is this not a phenomenon at all, and I just attract June-Cleaver-seekers?

Grateful for any/all replies, to any part of the above.


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 8/31/2009 9:06:19 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

But since when does TPE *equal* June Cleaver??  Even if you give her some some kinks??

I think the responses may be concerned with the fact that the tasks that would normally encapsulate a 50s HH concept are not ones which are potentially fatal, physiologically unhealthy or generally dangerous or illegal at all. It appears to be something rooted in preference rather than something akin to a serious "limit" for serious reasons.

Plus, general housework (maintaining of clothes, meal preparation) is normally a very tangible and daily part of the needs of someone in day-to-day activities...something which a slave would be expected to have be part of their tasks in caring for and serving their D-type.

At very least, you are advertising yourself (actively or not) as someone who willingly chooses to limit the means in which you are able to serve your D-type based on (what can easily be seen as) just whimsy. Whether it is right for you or not does not affect the fact that it's something that will confuse many people and a personal decision that generally eliminates you from a great percentage of suitors in terms of whether it even qualifies or can qualify as TPE.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/31/2009 9:09:53 PM >

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 8/31/2009 9:49:12 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		Many thanks, NZ.... you are, as always, wonderfully lucid and thought-provoking.

I suppose I get a different image from "50s hh" vs. merely "willing to do housework."  I am in no way opposed to housework (and if I am giving that impression, clearly I need to be rethinking).  There is something quite wonderful about cooking for a loved one, or washing his/her clothes, or any number of other tasks-- they are by their nature intimate, and easily become infused with love, obedience, desire to please...  and thus become a source of joy, even when circumstances might otherwise make them tedious.   But....  with 50s hh, I imagine homemaking (and this may include much besides the "chore" parts of housework---  such as decorating, entertaining, all of that, all of which requires considerable ingenuity, adeptness and taste which I cannot claim for myself) as a raison d'etre. 

A 50s housewife, in my sense of the term, stays home, and has no other purpose beyond making a happy home for her man to come home to after he's been out battling in the world to earn a living, etc.   Her existence is predicated on separate spheres-- he has his, she has hers, the the twain meet only if he desires to spill things about his day or correct something she is doing.  She is forced to make a life for 40-70 hrs a week out of the home and perhaps other homemakers; otherwise she stays home and twiddles her thumbs while he's out doing loftier things. 

I, personally, would rather be single (or even vanilla) than live like that.  Thus, I give it as a hard limit.   I don't, meanwhile, think it's impossible to have a TPE (and this seemed to be the norm among the people I remember from 10-12 yrs ago) in a two career pairing.   I'd like to (and have reason to) think I have things to bring to a relationship other than subliness, capacity for household labor, and a suitably arranged set of holes. 

Somewhere, ages ago, I read something that likened a slave to a bonsai tree.  They can be twisted in any manner of ways, some quite thoroughly unnatural-seeming....  but each tree has its own structure and own <cough> limits, points or directions beyond which they cannot be trained to grow, however assuiduously you attempt to make them do so.  The trick, in this metaphor, would be to bring out the possibilities inherent in the individual tree, and to go seek another tree if this one doesn't suit your specific purposes.  That is what I intend when I say no (as a seeker, not an incumbent) to 50s household.

I guess I need to make that clearer?

Anyway, I'd love to have my perception that this conflation is a relatively recent thing confirmed or refuted. 




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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 8/31/2009 9:54:24 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Many thanks, NZ.... you are, as always, wonderfully lucid and thought-provoking.

*shuffles feet bashfully*



Okay...I should actually get to reading your reply now, shouldn't I?


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 8/31/2009 10:12:24 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

But....  with 50s hh, I imagine homemaking (and this may include much besides the "chore" parts of housework---  such as decorating, entertaining, all of that, all of which requires considerable ingenuity, adeptness and taste which I cannot claim for myself) as a raison d'etre.

Fair point. Would you describe this as a personal critique of your ability? As in...you're hesitant about it because you don't think you're good at it or because the process of doing these things would actually cause you considerable stress?

I mean, if your D-type chooses you to be a catering-esque host for a group of friends coming over when you aren't remotely good at it and have expressed as much...it isn't really you're fault if the results are iffy, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

A 50s housewife, in my sense of the term, stays home, and has no other purpose beyond making a happy home for her man to come home to after he's been out battling in the world to earn a living, etc.   Her existence is predicated on separate spheres-- he has his, she has hers, the the twain meet only if he desires to spill things about his day or correct something she is doing.

That's essentially a good description of TPE, except that whether the means by which his needs/wants are met involve "happy home" concepts is entirely based on the D-type's wishes. I mean, I'm not even sure that is a unique 50s HH thing. I would imagine any live-in D/s relationship would be one where the D-type expects the s-type to have a pleasant and comfortable home-ambience waiting for Hir when Xhe gets home.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

She is forced to make a life for 40-70 hrs a week out of the home and perhaps other homemakers; otherwise she stays home and twiddles her thumbs while he's out doing loftier things. 

I, personally, would rather be single (or even vanilla) than live like that.  Thus, I give it as a hard limit.

What aspects of it, specifically, bother you? Not being allowed to have your own job? Not being permitted a social circle outside of the home? The expectation that the status of the house is still part of your chores?

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

I don't, meanwhile, think it's impossible to have a TPE (and this seemed to be the norm among the people I remember from 10-12 yrs ago) in a two career pairing.   I'd like to (and have reason to) think I have things to bring to a relationship other than subliness, capacity for household labor, and a suitably arranged set of holes.

So having your own career or not giving up your current career is a main issue, then? Are you able to feel you can shoulder the burden of having your job and still being responsible for a set of tasks that involve the maintenance of the household as well?

This is an example of why I'd feel there was a conflict with this and TPE: your motivation to have a career is affecting (or potentially affecting) your ability to prioritize service to the relationship and the hypothetical D-type in question. Unless it's a choice the D-type actively wants and one where Xhe understands how it will affect your available time and ability to serve, something that is "for you" is detracting from the things that are "for Hir" and that's the sort of thing that can easily set off caution flags in people having a superficial scan over your statements and declarations when it comes to how consistent they appear to be with a TPE dynamic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Somewhere, ages ago, I read something that likened a slave to a bonsai tree.  They can be twisted in any manner of ways, some quite thoroughly unnatural-seeming....  but each tree has its own structure and own <cough> limits, points or directions beyond which they cannot be trained to grow, however assuiduously you attempt to make them do so.

True. Except humans have this covert nifty ability to make for themselves any limits they want based on variable psychological quirks. Some are more seriously psychological and worth addressing (phobias, for instance) and then there are other things that are just (intentionally or not) imagined into the realm of limits when they are actually just preferences tightly held. And, ultimately, the only complete answers are in the heads of the individual s-types and there is no universal measuring stick to objectively tell someone they are not being "psychologically.mentally/emotionally broken" if they say they are (or imagine they are). With bonsai trees, you only have to address tangible measurable facets (stress on limbs, amount of water in can handle being without...).

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

The trick, in this metaphor, would be to bring out the possibilities inherent in the individual tree, and to go seek another tree if this one doesn't suit your specific purposes.  That is what I intend when I say no (as a seeker, not an incumbent) to 50s household.

I guess I need to make that clearer?

Anyway, I'd love to have my perception that this conflation is a relatively recent thing confirmed or refuted. 

The only problem I'm seeing with any of this is the choice to retain the term "slave" or the acronym "TPE" when the situation seems to dictate in not being generally applicable in most cases.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/31/2009 10:19:20 PM >

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 1:00:26 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		Well, i have never heard of June Cleaver, i do not really know much about tpe or 50's hh, but i suppose my life is sort of like these... as you put it house keeping and sex... yes that about sums it up... i also run my own business but really He owns that as well... i just work it and it is sort of house keeping like aswell... to me this kind of life is absolute bliss... i can not really do with the stress of a career, i am ok mostly with doing my chores, i love my house and being a wife and i am a submissive who likes sex.
I do the decorating and garden and that aswell (there really would not be any need at all to ever sit and twiddle my thumbs unless i want to do that and make the time) And yes sometimes i make the wrong choice and the wallpaper looks awfull plastered over a whole room...we usually live with it for a while untill i have the energy or funds to change it.

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 1:16:04 AM   
SlaveSimone


Posts: 95
Joined: 3/17/2008
From: Denver, Co
Status: offline 		I think the only issue here is that like most BDSM related terms, this is not an area that has a rigid definition that applies to every one practicing it. This being the case, some one listing 50's hh as a limit  could very easily be repelling people who they might other wise be compatible with just because they're definitions don't jive. This may or may not be an issue for you. Anyhow, do I think that TPE and 50's hh over lap? Yes, very much so. They're both based on the dynamic of one party leading, and the other following, so in that respect, they're very similare. Do they always go hand in hand?... Well I suppose that depends purely on your definitions of 50's hh and TPE.

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 2:21:34 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		My only close encounters with 50s type households are from my stays in more liberal Arabic countries and certain parts of Europe, though I would say that to some extent I/We perhaps use many of those elements in our relationship.
From what I have witnessed it is in fact the woman that are very much on an equal par with the man. She takes her job within the household and the raising of children seriously. Within the nest she is the main decision maker and makes the rules. She has a job to do and she strives to do that job well so that she may create an environment that she is staunchly proud of.
They used to say that a womans work was never done and this still stands true in many countries in the world. They still don't have washing machines, microwaves and all the things that make life for us women who live in modern wealthy societies so much easier. For these women, going out to work would seem ridiculous.
I didn't live through the 50s and so the only thing I can relate a 50s household to is from what I have seen elsewhere. What I have seen is close knit communities, strong family unions and I don't just mean immediate family and a quiet contentment from the women folk as well as a protective sort of pride from the men folk.

Lets remember that this didn't start in the 50s, it ended in the 50s. Men and women lived this way as far back as we can see in history and its only very recently that women have been liberated my modern conveniences and changes of opinion.
Whilst I believe the suffragettes did a huge amount of good (my great gran was one of them) and I am all for women making there own choices, I also feel
this new found freedom/personal choice regardless of what sex one is has in many instances left women without a clear role in society. We only have to look at the huge amount of broken relationships (and I am talking non violent) single parent families and a life built on aspiration, which for the majority can't be achieved without a huge financial burden.

I will probably get hammered for this post....


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 2:45:29 AM   
JustStephen


Posts: 61
Joined: 4/15/2008
Status: offline 		Well I listened while Jaz put together her thoughts on this (above) and thought I might suggest the following as being acceptable in our 50's household;

Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal on time. This is a way of letting me know that you have been thinking about me and are concerned about my needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal is part of the warm welcome needed.

Take fifteen minutes to rest so you will be refreshed when I arrive home. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh looking. I has just been with a lot of work-weary people. Be brighter and more interesting. My boring day may need a lift.

Make one last trip through our home just before I arrive, gathering up vibrators, toys, crops, etc. Then run a dust cloth over the tables. I will feel I have reached a haven of rest and order and it will give you a lift too.

Take a few minutes to wash the slaves hands and face, comb their hair and, if necessary, change their clothes. They are a little treasure and I would like to see them playing the part.

At the time of my arrival eliminate all noise of washer, dryer, dishwasher, or vacuum. Try to encourage the slave to be quiet. Be happy to see me. Be naked and greet me with a warm smile and be glad to see me.

Don't greet me with problems or complaints. Don't complain if I'm late for dinner. Count this as minor compared with what I might have gone through that day.

Have me lean back in a comfortable chair or suggest I lie down in the bedroom. Have a warm cunt ready for me. Arrange my pillows and offer to suck my cock. Speak in a low, soft, soothing, and pleasant voice. Allow me to relax - unwind.

You may have a dozen things to tell me, but the moment of my arrival is not the time. Let me talk first. Make the evening mine: Never complain if I does not take you out to dinner or other places of entertainment. Instead, try to understand my world of stress and pressure, my need to be home and relax.

Try to make our home a place of peace and order, where I can renew himself in body and spirit.

(Paraphrased from a 50's housewife manual)

Stephen

< Message edited by JustStephen -- 9/1/2009 2:56:50 AM >

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 4:56:25 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If I was incompetent at a task and he made me do this in front of a group of friends, I would consider this setting me up to fail. Plus embarrassing my friends as well which wouldn't speak highly of his ability to keep friends. You don't invite people to dinner and serve them burnt food and expect them to willingly come back for more. Plus what would his response be? Exclaiming how wonderful it is while he doesn't eat or making snide comments about my incompetencies. The first shows him to be an idiot and the second is hurtful in the extreme.

But yeah, having no relationship between what I do and what he does would be a stopper. Because if you can't talk about your day and make helpful suggestions for each other, what do you talk about. You don't, she washes the dishes while he reads the paper. And a relationship with zero communication doesn't appeal to me either.

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 11:04:44 AM   
MistressDevito


Posts: 17
Joined: 8/26/2009
Status: offline 		I have observed the 50s home tpe because I was raised in it.  IMO, No, it has nothing to do in my opinion with modern day BDSM.  IMO, it probably is the same thing as role play such as daddy and mommy dom/mes.   
One program I noticed June's husband having a conversation with her.  I like him.  He was a nice guy for his time.
She is still standing in her dress looking at awe at him, and he asked her to get him a glass of milk before bed.
My responce would have been sure darling.  Here is your milk as I poured it on top of his head and let him roll in it.
 
Respectfully,
 
MistressDevito
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If I was incompetent at a task and he made me do this in front of a group of friends, I would consider this setting me up to fail. Plus embarrassing my friends as well which wouldn't speak highly of his ability to keep friends. You don't invite people to dinner and serve them burnt food and expect them to willingly come back for more. Plus what would his response be? Exclaiming how wonderful it is while he doesn't eat or making snide comments about my incompetencies. The first shows him to be an idiot and the second is hurtful in the extreme.

But yeah, having no relationship between what I do and what he does would be a stopper. Because if you can't talk about your day and make helpful suggestions for each other, what do you talk about. You don't, she washes the dishes while he reads the paper. And a relationship with zero communication doesn't appeal to me either.

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 11:15:30 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		I just posted something in the submissive forum about "Being Pleasing" and I think much of that concept can be seen in the 50s HH genre.  Vacuuming in pearls, not because you should, but because you are -more pleasing- to others when you do so. 

I think this concept is also very attractive to people who express -love- through service.  Personally, I can think of few more honorable means to live one's life - are you out solving world hunger, no.  But you are involved in making the life of one or more other human beings better - caring for them in ways that is unique to you, and makes their life on the big ball-o-dirt better.

Service is Love made manifest...

Not everyone's kink to be sure.  I find it attractive...I like pearls and will look for almost any excuse to wear them...vacuuming is a good one! 


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 7:08:52 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you again, NZ...  you are kind to respond in such detail-- this is helping me enormously as I attempt to refine my thinking. 

(I wonder, incidentally, what it might take to make you blush along with the foot-shuffling, but I figure it's unseemly to go there deliberately)  :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

But....  with 50s hh, I imagine homemaking (and this may include much besides the "chore" parts of housework---  such as decorating, entertaining, all of that, all of which requires considerable ingenuity, adeptness and taste which I cannot claim for myself) as a raison d'etre.

Fair point. Would you describe this as a personal critique of your ability? As in...you're hesitant about it because you don't think you're good at it or because the process of doing these things would actually cause you considerable stress?

I mean, if your D-type chooses you to be a catering-esque host for a group of friends coming over when you aren't remotely good at it and have expressed as much...it isn't really you're fault if the results are iffy, yes?


It would cause me stress because I am not good at it to begin with and suck even more with pressure to perform.  I am quite sure that if a D-type principally wanted someone to perform such functions for him, he could do much, much better looking to a different submissive-- one who has more knowledge and skills than I do.


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

A 50s housewife, in my sense of the term, stays home, and has no other purpose beyond making a happy home for her man to come home to after he's been out battling in the world to earn a living, etc.   Her existence is predicated on separate spheres-- he has his, she has hers, the the twain meet only if he desires to spill things about his day or correct something she is doing.

That's essentially a good description of TPE, except that whether the means by which his needs/wants are met involve "happy home" concepts is entirely based on the D-type's wishes. I mean, I'm not even sure that is a unique 50s HH thing. I would imagine any live-in D/s relationship would be one where the D-type expects the s-type to have a pleasant and comfortable home-ambience waiting for Hir when Xhe gets home. 


Hmm..   I think something is getting lost in my attempt to characterize 50s HH?  Or at least, in my objections to it for me personally?  I have no problem with doing everything in my power to create a happy home...   up to and including housework, and learning to entertain effectively, and whatever might be called for.  The crux here is in my perceptions of rigidly separate spheres.

In the recent "let's see if this will work" situation I alluded to here and have written a bit about elsewhere, the way this played out over the course of a week is that I sat home all day, all alone, in a godforsaken suburb, partly doing things for work and partly tidying up, preparing dinner, generally being domestic.  He came home, consumed the dinner with me (that part was nice enough), and then retired to watch tv, play on his computer, etc.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I imagined this stretching out into the future ad nauseum and could not help envisioning throwing myself under a bus.  The net effect was that I felt lonelier there with him than I would have felt doing exactly the same combination of work + domestic stuff in my own home, with no one else around.  I certainly didn't feel "enslaved" (though I might have felt potentially obedient or pleasing.)

There were other things that were probably wrong with that connection.... but I came to recognize that in his view (which was billed as TPE long before the fact that "50s HH" appealed to him), a woman enslaves herself.  His role is pretty much just to sit back and be served. 


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

She is forced to make a life for 40-70 hrs a week out of the home and perhaps other homemakers; otherwise she stays home and twiddles her thumbs while he's out doing loftier things. 

I, personally, would rather be single (or even vanilla) than live like that.  Thus, I give it as a hard limit.

What aspects of it, specifically, bother you? Not being allowed to have your own job? Not being permitted a social circle outside of the home? The expectation that the status of the house is still part of your chores?


Hmm.  It's none of these things and all of them.  It would be crushing, and extremely disorienting to me to give up my career, but I cannot say I would not do it in some (ideal) circumstances.  I would just need other sources of interactive intellectual stimulation.  (Perhaps the D-type himself could provide that.  I'd like to think he'd provide at least part of it.) The expectation that the status of the house is entirely my problem makes me very nervous if I am in fact going to keep my career-- there are times when there are just not enough hours in the day, and that's something the D-type would need to be equipped to deal with. 


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

I don't, meanwhile, think it's impossible to have a TPE (and this seemed to be the norm among the people I remember from 10-12 yrs ago) in a two career pairing.   I'd like to (and have reason to) think I have things to bring to a relationship other than subliness, capacity for household labor, and a suitably arranged set of holes.

So having your own career or not giving up your current career is a main issue, then? Are you able to feel you can shoulder the burden of having your job and still being responsible for a set of tasks that involve the maintenance of the household as well?

This is an example of why I'd feel there was a conflict with this and TPE: your motivation to have a career is affecting (or potentially affecting) your ability to prioritize service to the relationship and the hypothetical D-type in question. Unless it's a choice the D-type actively wants and one where Xhe understands how it will affect your available time and ability to serve, something that is "for you" is detracting from the things that are "for Hir" and that's the sort of thing that can easily set off caution flags in people having a superficial scan over your statements and declarations when it comes to how consistent they appear to be with a TPE dynamic.


Here is another crux.  There is a vast difference, I think, between how things might be after a TPE had been entered into and how one needs to approach things as a seeking-person.  I think I'd actually lose most of the people who most interest me if I suggested I'm eager to chuck up my career and become June Cleaver (::wonders... do I have to come equipped with my own pearls?::)   People with whom I'm likely to be a good match tend to view career and a disposition to be involved outside the house as (get this) an asset rather than a liability.  If down the line it proved to be an impediment to my service (rather than an aspect of my service) and adjustments were necessary, well, fine.  But this assumes that the relationship has moved quite far in the direction of being an actual TPE.  When I give 50s HH as a hard limit I'm trying to telegraph that I am a) impaired in the traditionally girly arts and sciences and b) oriented in other directions to an extent that it becomes a square peg/round hole proposition. 

But I've realized what the problem is.  I just need to list it as something I hate rather than as a limit.  :-)


quote:


The only problem I'm seeing with any of this is the choice to retain the term "slave" or the acronym "TPE" when the situation seems to dictate in not being generally applicable in most cases.


Yep.  I'm ceasing to use the term slave in application to myself or the kind of relationship I seek.  I still have no doubt that it is the sort of relationship in which I would be happiest, but I think it's safer and more effective to attempt to explain in prose rather than having recourse to labels that can easily be interpreted in ways other than what one intends.

Thank you again, NZ. 

< Message edited by sravaka -- 9/1/2009 7:11:11 PM >

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 7:52:38 PM   
sravaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

Well, i have never heard of June Cleaver, i do not really know much about tpe or 50's hh, but i suppose my life is sort of like these... as you put it house keeping and sex... yes that about sums it up... i also run my own business but really He owns that as well... i just work it and it is sort of house keeping like aswell... to me this kind of life is absolute bliss... i can not really do with the stress of a career, i am ok mostly with doing my chores, i love my house and being a wife and i am a submissive who likes sex.
I do the decorating and garden and that aswell (there really would not be any need at all to ever sit and twiddle my thumbs unless i want to do that and make the time) And yes sometimes i make the wrong choice and the wallpaper looks awfull plastered over a whole room...we usually live with it for a while untill i have the energy or funds to change it.



Hi ranja,

I sincerely hope I gave no offense with my thumb twiddling comment--  I know there are women (and I'm sure men too) for whom what I perceive as stressful and ill-fitting is, as you say, "absolute bliss," and I know too that there's more than a full time job involved in keeping a household running smoothly.  I'm actually quite jealous sometimes.... I wish I had better homemaking skills to bring to the table.  (Working on it, but.... ::sigh::  )

June Cleaver, for the record, was the absurdly perfect mom/wife on "Leave it to Beaver," a 1950s US sitcom.  See posts by Mistress DeVito and Otter below for a taste...


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 8:17:30 PM   
sravaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

My only close encounters with 50s type households are from my stays in more liberal Arabic countries and certain parts of Europe, though I would say that to some extent I/We perhaps use many of those elements in our relationship.
From what I have witnessed it is in fact the woman that are very much on an equal par with the man. She takes her job within the household and the raising of children seriously. Within the nest she is the main decision maker and makes the rules. She has a job to do and she strives to do that job well so that she may create an environment that she is staunchly proud of.
They used to say that a womans work was never done and this still stands true in many countries in the world. They still don't have washing machines, microwaves and all the things that make life for us women who live in modern wealthy societies so much easier. For these women, going out to work would seem ridiculous.
I didn't live through the 50s and so the only thing I can relate a 50s household to is from what I have seen elsewhere. What I have seen is close knit communities, strong family unions and I don't just mean immediate family and a quiet contentment from the women folk as well as a protective sort of pride from the men folk.

Lets remember that this didn't start in the 50s, it ended in the 50s. Men and women lived this way as far back as we can see in history and its only very recently that women have been liberated my modern conveniences and changes of opinion.
Whilst I believe the suffragettes did a huge amount of good (my great gran was one of them) and I am all for women making there own choices, I also feel
this new found freedom/personal choice regardless of what sex one is has in many instances left women without a clear role in society. We only have to look at the huge amount of broken relationships (and I am talking non violent) single parent families and a life built on aspiration, which for the majority can't be achieved without a huge financial burden.

I will probably get hammered for this post....



Definitely no hammering from me, Maria.  Thank you!  This is another major thought-provoker.  I'm particularly struck by your observation that the 50s is where it ended....

I may already have said this, but I in no way deny that a household in which traditional gender roles are cherished is not potentially an exquisite foundation for a D/s or TPE relationship.   In any household, there's going to be division of labor.  I just don't think traditional divisions are the only way to go?  (though splitting things up ad hoc may be rather messy.)   Somehow I managed to make it to my advanced age always having been in pairings where *both* the outside work *and* the inside work were split.... and to me, there is a certain intimacy in having things to share in both realms.  In keeping with your post (yay, great gran!) I've loved being free to have (and share) that feeling, as well as the more obvious freedom to go out and do stuff in the wide world that used to be off limits, and that are still off limits in many parts of the world.

I think it's fascinating, for example, that microfinanciers in many parts of the developing world routinely target women as borrowers, knowing that they can best be trusted to invest wisely/profitably and pay the money back.  I love the fact that women who otherwise would have had absolutely no hope of going into business now have those opportunities and end up enriching the entire household in the process. 

Regarding the correlation between the loss of traditional roles and the increase in broken relationships....  I suppose I tend to focus on the oddball women who are forced to be unhappy or unfulfilled their entire lives as a result of having no options.  But clearly, having the option to hew to traditional roles, in whole or in part, is just as important.  I suppose it's inevitable that there are going to be screw-ups as both parties to a relationship figure out what it is that will work best for them individually. 


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 8:25:15 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Well, i have never heard of June Cleaver


The wife on Leave it to Beaver

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 8:45:09 PM   
sravaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

But yeah, having no relationship between what I do and what he does would be a stopper. Because if you can't talk about your day and make helpful suggestions for each other, what do you talk about. You don't, she washes the dishes while he reads the paper. And a relationship with zero communication doesn't appeal to me either.


Des!  Yes, yes, yes!  This is what I have a problem with, and what I meant about separate spheres.  I *really* have the impression that a large proportion of the 50s hh types I've spoken to actually *seek* a lack of what I would perceive of as intimacy. 

Someone wrote to me on the other side and put it in terms of awareness, which I thought was brilliant.  In the stereotypical 50s arrangement both parties are *confined* in their separate spheres, and not enormously (if at all) conscious of the details of each others lives or their feelings about their lives.  As long as the trains are running on time, it's all good.   In Japan they used to speak of good marriages involving parallel lines, never intersecting, since approaching too closely might create conflicts.  It's all for the good of the household (and the kids) but there is essentially nothing in it for the couple other than the practical aspects (income vs. housekeeping/childrearing).

I give that a hearty *blech*.  


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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 10:04:41 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Hmm..   I think something is getting lost in my attempt to characterize 50s HH?  Or at least, in my objections to it for me personally?  I have no problem with doing everything in my power to create a happy home...   up to and including housework, and learning to entertain effectively, and whatever might be called for.  The crux here is in my perceptions of rigidly separate spheres.

In the recent "let's see if this will work" situation I alluded to here and have written a bit about elsewhere, the way this played out over the course of a week is that I sat home all day, all alone, in a godforsaken suburb, partly doing things for work and partly tidying up, preparing dinner, generally being domestic.  He came home, consumed the dinner with me (that part was nice enough), and then retired to watch tv, play on his computer, etc.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I imagined this stretching out into the future ad nauseum and could not help envisioning throwing myself under a bus.  The net effect was that I felt lonelier there with him than I would have felt doing exactly the same combination of work + domestic stuff in my own home, with no one else around.  I certainly didn't feel "enslaved" (though I might have felt potentially obedient or pleasing.)

I'm seeing a divide in this issue. Do you feel uncomfortable with the dynamic because of the results you got in this situation? Perhaps it's because I'm a very tactile person, but even on the days that I'd come home from work and be thoroughly tired and may first want a sit/lay with a glass of wine, I'm still very interested in physical/intimate contact with my s-type. At least for me, the service I expect when I get home should be mutually interactive. Even if I want to spend an hour brainlessly watching a movie, I'd expect her there for cuddling or just general attentiveness...so that even in moments where my attention is elsewhere, at least my contact is a reassuring reminder of a sense of 'sharing the moment'. It seems there was an element of this you felt you weren't getting on his part of the caretaking dynamic and took that as being indicative of the 50s HH dynamic entirely. I think it's a separate issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Yep.  I'm ceasing to use the term slave in application to myself or the kind of relationship I seek.  I still have no doubt that it is the sort of relationship in which I would be happiest, but I think it's safer and more effective to attempt to explain in prose rather than having recourse to labels that can easily be interpreted in ways other than what one intends.


Thank you again, NZ. 

Well, now I feel as if I've turned too much of the discussion onto just what the s-type is expected to do. I certainly feel that you can have an expectation of certain degrees of interactions yourself separately from how well you are holding up your end of the dynamic.

If a general sense of sweet attentiveness and mutual 'us time'  is the problem, then that's a separate reciprocative element . To me, part of the entire process of expecting to come home to a pleasant and tidy household lies in wanting to come home to the onhe who prepared it for me. I think that's just a reflection of the relationship itself...I'll have enough random stress at work that I'll be looking forward to coming back to a home where there's someone motivated by the willingness to please and have the appreciation showed in reply.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 9/1/2009 10:14:11 PM >

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/1/2009 10:12:08 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sravaka

Des!  Yes, yes, yes!  This is what I have a problem with, and what I meant about separate spheres.  I *really* have the impression that a large proportion of the 50s hh types I've spoken to actually *seek* a lack of what I would perceive of as intimacy.

Maybe I'm not speaking properly for a general portion of the 50s HH folk, but I can't imagine why I wouldn't be happily drawn to interaction with my partner when she's conscientiously and carefully prepared things for me when I get home...especially if I'm actually looking forward to having someone I care about and from whom I can expect caring attentiveness when I'm done with the menial annoyances of work.

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RE: "Fifties household" and TPE - 9/2/2009 1:53:19 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Being older than dirt NZ, my memories are that the men didn't usually look forward to seeing their families and interacting with them. Many of the women I knew when I was a youngin in the 50s and 60s had only high school diplomas if that. The men had the higher degrees yet helping with homework was relegated to the woman despite her lack of ability to do so. The men I knew came home, ate dinner, and watched tv. They didn't seek interaction with their wives and offspring.

They set up relationships with women where the women didn't work, didn't have higher education and then they had nothing in common with these women except to look down on them for lacking those things despite deliberately choosing women who didn't have careers and college educations.

One of these women I had known for over 30 years before I discovered she actually had a brain. If her husband was there, she simpered and played up to him. She played the dumb blonde to the hilt because that's what he demanded. She played that with him alone and in public for their entire married life. She was not allowed to be her authentic self most of her adult life. And that's sad.

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