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Outsourcing - 9/4/2009 11:47:14 PM

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With the economy as it is, should the Govt outlaw job outsourcing to ther countries.?? Comments

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RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 12:15:02 AM

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I'm fairly certain the government doesn't have the legal bearing to do so as the outsourcing occurs, by its very nature, outside of our borders.

I think the most they could do is deny any sort of aid to companies that continue to outsource.

(in reply to Acer49)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 5:32:24 AM

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They could take away the benefits from outsourcing and make it less profitable than bringing jobs home. Which is what they need to do. All this crap made in Mexico and Taiwan and all these other friggin places is exactly what I called it.... crap. I just bought a pair of shoes from a company that outsourced its manufacturing. I got one month out of them where I used to get closer to a year out of the exact same style and brand. The price was only a few dollars less than before they outsourced.
I say we need to get out of the NAFTA shitstorm and rebuild our own economy. Then we can help the world.

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RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 5:56:05 AM

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When the elimination of "outsourcing" is discussed it is always equated with isolationism and/or protectionism, and this usually and most vocally by alleged "free market" proponents.

As for the government having the "legal bearing" to do this it/they/we certainly do. Changes in the tax code and changes to import duties, taxes and tariffs could make it economically unviable for US corporations to outsource.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 6:44:09 AM

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I don't know about the whole concept of outsourcing, but I sure do believe that any customer support center servicing a country should be located within that country. If for no other reason than the language barrier.

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RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 6:53:49 AM

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If there were tax disadvantages to making money outside the US, whether that money was brought inside the US or not, combined with tax breaks for creating jobs in the US, then maybe the problem would stop. The contributions from many corporations to political capaigns would stop as well.

Marry this topic to the one on coporatist, because they are linked.

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RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 7:41:05 AM

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Which is exactly what Obama is proposing, and of course the companies benefiting from outsourcing opposing.

High-tech firms, including Microsoft, IBM and Hewlett-Packard, are opposing an Obama administration plan to eliminate tax deferrals on corporate revenue derived from overseas operations.

But I really love this quote where we are told the only way for American businesses to stay competitive is to hire cheap labor elsewhere:

"This is the linchpin in American competitiveness," Phil Bond, president of TechAmerica, the nation's largest high-technology advocacy group, said at a news conference this week reported by Nextgov.com. "The tax provisions around overseas income are critical to allowing our companies to go overseas to compete and succeed."

http://www.fiercecio.com/story/tech-firms-oppose-obgamas-tax-plan/2009-08-12#ixzz0QF8bowPB

(in reply to UncleNasty)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 8:42:47 AM

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~FR~

Restricting foreign trade, whether by outsourcing, tariffs, quotas, etc., will slow the economy. If you want all American, you should be aware that this comes with (1) more expensive goods and (2) fewer markets for U.S. goods, as other nations will retaliate. This is turn will mean layoffs for U.S. workers, and a further slowing of the economy.

We and other nations have made this mistake periodically. Take a look at history. It IS isolationism/protectionism, and it doesn't work.

The answer is that we need meaningful international law--but nobody wants that either, so we all swim in prideful shit.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 10:23:40 AM

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MM,

For years the bulk of funding for the Federal Government came from exactly tariffs, import duties and taxes, etc. That was in the days before the 16th Amendment, afterwhich the size of the Fed Gov't exploded into what we have today - which in my opinion is mostly waste.

An interesting piece in terms of taxation and waste was a commission set up in Ronnie's first term known as the Grace Commission. In essence it said not a penny of monies collected through taxation go to pay for any governmental programs. It pays interest on the national debt with the remainder being eating up by bureaucratic waste and inefficiency.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 10:30:41 AM

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UN,

We were also a small and largely agricultural nation--and with a small federal government.

Most people can't just stay home and produce their own food and goods anymore.

Nonetheless--trade restrictions slow the economy. Taxes are a separate issue. Raise them from tariffs, slow the economy. Find any credible economist who can argue differently.

Ronnie's fantasy about economics indeed held the line at collecting taxes--and ballooned deficit spending instead. That's like saying I don't have to work as much, because I have credit cards.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 9/5/2009 10:36:30 AM >

(in reply to UncleNasty)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 10:50:34 AM

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MM, normally I find some things about which you and I agree in a topic. Sending jobs away and making more and more people hit the poverty level is what kills an economy. Addicting people to cheap junk that doesn't last further kills an economy because people cannot by other things they want or need. In my example, I now have to waste money on a pair of shoes again because of the crap I was sold.
Without a solid base, anything built will collapse.

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What man is a man who does not make his world better?

Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 11:39:10 AM

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You cant have world trade and then moan when jobs go abroad, its that simple. Manufacturers will find the cheapest location to produce from, to try and stop it will only force up prices. Its a difficult choice, dearer goods or more jobs at home, it wont stop there either, unless you want trade tarrifs on a large scale.

(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 1:21:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

MM, normally I find some things about which you and I agree in a topic. Sending jobs away and making more and more people hit the poverty level is what kills an economy. Addicting people to cheap junk that doesn't last further kills an economy because people cannot by other things they want or need. In my example, I now have to waste money on a pair of shoes again because of the crap I was sold.
Without a solid base, anything built will collapse.

Hi Irish,

I agree with you about the crap.

But you're overlooking the economic reality of your proposed solution.

(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/5/2009 10:14:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You cant have world trade and then moan when jobs go abroad, its that simple. Manufacturers will find the cheapest location to produce from, to try and stop it will only force up prices. Its a difficult choice, dearer goods or more jobs at home, it wont stop there either, unless you want trade tarrifs on a large scale.

I never wanted world trade. I am against the rape of the American worker to make this fictitious global economy.
If I lived in the home next to yours, I would feel the same way (protective) about England's economy. I believe that the base has to be strong or nothing will stand. We currently have no base in the country I live in because of corporate greed and political idiocy.

_____________________________

What man is a man who does not make his world better?

Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/6/2009 3:31:44 AM

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I have the right to put my business/factory anywhere it will be excepted. Just because I'm a US citizen dosen't mean that I have to do everything here.

You can't outlaw oursorcing. It wouldn't fix anything anyways. Most of our products on outsorced goods would most likely double and tripple in cost if made in the US.

If you made a law against outsourcing, then you compromise the Constitution, the idea of Free Enterprise, and compromise political affiliations we have with other countries.

On the last note, too many of our politicians recieve to much campaign funding from the companies that outsource. Most of them also have stock investments and ownership in these companies as well. In other words, such a law will never hit the Presidents desk.

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(in reply to Acer49)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/6/2009 6:06:09 AM

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Hiya Tim,

You do not tax or tariff it directly. What you do is change some of the existing laws so that money made outside the US is not excluded, or taxed at a lower rate, than income made inside the US. This only effects those companies that want to make money being a US company, but has large investments outside the US. You then give those same companies a tax break of the same amount to make that money directly in our market. The net effect on the tax area would be zero, as long as they took advanatage of the decrease by making and spending the money in the US. Now there would be an increase in price for some items, as the American people have this idea that they will not work certain jobs unless they are paid a certain minimum. Instead they will stay home and collect from different types of government funds, and bemoan how they cannot get a job. That is okay because new business need everything from assembly areas (that some people will work even if it is just min wage), supervisors, middle management on up. Those items also need to be shipped, the buildings maintained, etc. So new manufacturing or distribution effects the economy pretty well.

Combine the above increase/decrease of tax with tax credits for creating jobs in the US, and make incentives for people to open businesses here. One of the downsides at the moment is the heavy expense of employee benefits programs, but maybe that may be addressed soon too.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

Restricting foreign trade, whether by outsourcing, tariffs, quotas, etc., will slow the economy. If you want all American, you should be aware that this comes with (1) more expensive goods and (2) fewer markets for U.S. goods, as other nations will retaliate. This is turn will mean layoffs for U.S. workers, and a further slowing of the economy.

We and other nations have made this mistake periodically. Take a look at history. It IS isolationism/protectionism, and it doesn't work.

The answer is that we need meaningful international law--but nobody wants that either, so we all swim in prideful shit.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/6/2009 6:10:48 AM

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With higher wages of having some of these jobs would come the ability to purchase the items at the slightly higher price and the govt would get higher taxes from them to put toward the deficit. They probably wouldn't use it for paying our country's debt because they're a bunch of assclowns but it would be available for that.

_____________________________

What man is a man who does not make his world better?

Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/6/2009 7:30:31 AM

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Outsourcing is really only enhanced importing; whereas in standard importing a foreign producer makes and exports the goods, with outsourcing it is a domestic company operating overseas which exports the goods homewards. In general this is better since the overall effect is (or should be) to enhance the domestic economy - the problem as such is that this benefit accrues by and large to the corporation only and not to the wider society.

Why import goods?

1) the goods are unavailable at home
2) the goods are much cheaper than those produced at home
3) the goods are much better than those produced at home
4) a combination of (2) and (3)

Thus far in general we are still ahead of the game in terms of (3) but our insistence on our living standards and steady improvements to them has sunk us in terms of (2), and the truth is - regardless of the bunkum the UK government comes out with at least about our world leading technology and innovation (India alone produces 1000 engineers to our 1 each year) - we shall rapidly lose out on point (3) too.

The progress of outsourcing will continue until such time as living standards and aspiration in the west match with those in the producer nations; the latter will rise a great deal as ours fall. This manifests itself in greater wealth and consumption in the producer nations whilst here we see the destruction of the working class and a sizeable and growing underclass developing for whom employment is an unknown, alongside (as the producer nations develop such higher skills) the erosion of the middle class in the west.

So much for economics however, and so much for our political elite, who protected from the growing social ills of these developments are oblivious to the wider picture whereby the same poverty, corruption and criminality that their insistence on overseas development was portrayed as alleviating, has been imported from producer nations alongside the goods. This unquantified cost of outsourcing is rarely discussed of course but must easily outweigh any corporate gain in terms of the nation's interests.

The question then is one of self interest on a national level, just as this is opposed on a personal and corporate level by those benefitting from outsourcing. This is a question which cannot be settled in such terms without acknowledging that which is heresy in the western tradition, that the strength of the individual is dependent on the strength of the nation and so the individual must put his nation before himself. This is an easy pill to swallow of course when we consider the corporations against whom the rage of personal distress might be targeted, but is less easy when it comes to personal choices.

Notwithstanding such terms though there is another hope - and it lies in the European model of capitalism, which sees business as having definite social purposes and not, as in the "Anglo Saxon model" pursued here and in the US, an activity wholly unto itself with no social responsibility let alone purpose. Again however, such heresy is unlikely to be heard - more unlikely to be heard perhaps than the alternative outlined above, lacking as it does the excitement of such a revolutionary fervour as the alternative possesses.

And we must consider also that as things stand, the majority of our western populations, easily diverted as they are by the bread and circuses put on by the media owned and controlled by those whose interest is in the status quo, have neither the wherewithall to figure this stuff out nor to affect the matter.

Therefore the real question is not what we do about it, but how do I survive and perhaps prosper in an environment over which I have little if any control? The answer is that if one cannot beat them, one should join them.

E (importer of £7million worth of transport services from eastern Europe 2004-2009)

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(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/6/2009 8:06:37 AM

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quote:

I never wanted world trade. I am against the rape of the American worker to make this fictitious global economy.
If I lived in the home next to yours, I would feel the same way (protective) about England's economy. I believe that the base has to be strong or nothing will stand. We currently have no base in the country I live in because of corporate greed and political idiocy.

Should have thought of that in the 16th century!

(in reply to Irishknight)

RE: Outsourcing - 9/6/2009 8:09:28 AM

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quote:

make incentives for people to open businesses here. One of the downsides at the moment is the heavy expense of employee benefits programs, but maybe that may be addressed soon too.

This is among the reasons I see health care reform as an economic essential.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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