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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/15/2009 5:14:48 PM   
mcbride


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Status: offline 		Oh, nicely argued. Say hi to Mr Rodriguez Guillen for me.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/15/2009 5:29:35 PM   
Thadius


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Status: offline 		I too enjoyed the way that you changed gears on what is considered wealth.  Property is definitely an asset that is considered when figuring out somebody's net wealth? No?

Just sayin,
Thadius

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/15/2009 5:33:24 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Quoting Prof. Thomas J. Reese, an American Vatican expertfrom Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University "Inside the Vatican" (Harvard University Press, 1996) “In 1994, the [Price-Waterhouse Independent] audit listed: - 1,483 billion lire in assets [About $848 million]: - - 732 billion lire [about $419 million] in liabilities (in the"Consolidated Financial Statements of the Holy See" (410 billion in cash, 479 billion in stocks and bonds, 29 billion in gold, and 470 billion in fixed assets - investments and real-estate) . 269 billion lire are in deposits and accounts of Vatican entities, 96 billion for employees' severance indemnities and 262 billion at the value of pensions to present employees;- 750 billion are in net assets [$430 million]. These figures are without the bank and the Vatican City. Reese estimates that it would add up to$500 million to $1 billion. However, deducting the Vatican City's budget and the $270 million reported as "fixed assets", the sum is lower than $1 billion, maybe even less than quarter billion dollars.

That was 14 years ago, and does not include “priceless” works of art.

Per your source.


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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/15/2009 9:23:00 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I too enjoyed the way that you changed gears on what is considered wealth.  Property is definitely an asset that is considered when figuring out somebody's net wealth? No?



You'll have to show me how I "changed gears", big fella.  The property is, as I said, largely churches, schools and hospitals.  Is that the "vast wealth"?

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/15/2009 9:34:04 PM   
mcbride


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Yes, and it's nice to see you quoting a legitimate source, and I appreciate it.

Those are ridiculously small numbers for an organization of more than a billion people, no?

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 12:12:34 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm not sure the Pope will look too kindly on a Jewish comedian telling him what to do with his city.


I seem to recall they got quite a lot of mileage out of listening to some other wacky Jewish guy's ideas on similar issues. But that was a long time ago, and I'm not sure they really find it all that relevant anymore.


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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 2:38:44 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride


Yes, and it's nice to see you quoting a legitimate source, and I appreciate it.

Those are ridiculously small numbers for an organization of more than a billion people, no?



Actually no.  those are the numbers they wanted known, minus art work, minus private holdings, minus a whole lot of real estate.

The other sources were just as credible, saying the same thing.  this is the one and only time i will conceed to your demand to prove anything.  again, you dont like my sources, feel free to block.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 4:13:22 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride


Really?  Where?  And where's the income from all that wealth?  I kept checking all the credible sources, and there's certainly a ton of information on line detailing the church's finances, (try, for example a detailed book called Inside the Vatican by Thomas J. Reese, if you want a very close look at their finances) , but I couldn't find any credible sources that even hinted at "vast wealth". Where should I look?



You might start here. 

It would seem the poor, humble Catholic Church has a great deal of money to settle legal claims for their priests that enjoy dabbling in NAMBLA activities.

And keep in mind this only covers the U.S. cases.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org


Total settlements and awards 1950-present would appear to be well over $3 billion, not including treatment costs and legal fees.

Here’s how we estimate that total: (1) $2,069,179,500 in large settlements and awards (in excess of $1 million) as outlined in the table below; (2) pre-2002 payouts, documented in local John Jay reports, of more than $750 million (some of that amount overlaps the data in the table below); and (3) smaller post-2002 settlements (under $1 million each) likely totaling at least $500 million.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 4:39:39 AM   
HatesParisHilton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm not sure the Pope will look too kindly on a Jewish comedian telling him what to do with his city.


Why not?  A Jew told people what to do in the Holy City and tht led to the Pope.  Seems consistant enough.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 6:49:26 AM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Actually no.  those are the numbers they wanted known, minus art work, minus private holdings, minus a whole lot of real estate.

The other sources were just as credible, saying the same thing.  this is the one and only time i will conceed to your demand to prove anything.  again, you dont like my sources, feel free to block.


So we're back to where we were, with you making a claim you can't back up with serious sources, and using, instead, the Pope-is-the-Antichrist author.

You've already conceded, yes, that you can't substantiate the "vast wealth" claim, and somehow you take that as proof that it's true.  You're gonna pull a muscle, Senator McCarthy.

I won't block you.  If you keep posting it, I'll just keep pointing it out, for anyone who doesn't realize that your only sources are the "UNESCO is Satan" guy.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 7:33:34 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


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Status: offline 		It's the most brilliant commercial I've ever seen.    It wasn't funny initially, than she hit it with the ?"don't know what you consider crazy pussy comment....     M

< Message edited by FullfigRIMAAM1 -- 10/16/2009 7:34:20 AM >

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 7:47:14 AM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

It would seem the poor, humble Catholic Church has a great deal of money to settle legal claims for their priests that enjoy dabbling in NAMBLA activities.

And keep in mind this only covers the U.S. cases.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org

Total settlements and awards 1950-present would appear to be well over $3 billion, not including treatment costs and legal fees.


That's a good source. Thank you. And those numbers are probably in the ball park. 

I don't know who told you the Church is poor. I do take issue with the "vast wealth" claim fueled by hate-spewing crazies who write things like “The Mafia of the Vatican is Directed by The Antichrist 666,” among other zippy title headings.

Your source establishes that US settlements and awards would appear to be well over $3 billion, (not including treatment costs and legal fees) over 60 years.  Yes, that's a hell of a lot of money, and it does mean churches, schools and hospitals have closed because church authorities failed to act.

Does $3 billion over 60 years indicate vast wealth? Goldman Sachs made about $3 billion in the third quarter of this year. Duke University lost $3 billion over the past year.

Washington lobbyists spent more than $3 billion last year alone on wining and dining lawmakers, so I'm not sure, personally, that a world organization with a billion members spending $3 billion over 60 years shows "vast wealth." 

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 8:28:38 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		I don't think that was the point of the wealth comments.

The problem is the Catholic Church asks its members to sacrifice what they can to give to the poor and to support the Church, but has no shame about its own extravagance.

I have family that attends a church in the area that needed a new roof.  It had a standard shingle roof that would have probably cost less than $10K to replace.

Instead they opted for a $2 million bronze, sculpted monstrosity, which looks very impressive, but what could that money have been better spent on? 

And of of course it was paid for by that second collection basket for "parish improvements".

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/16/2009 8:29:15 AM >

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 9:04:06 AM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		With all due respect, Tazzy's dubious "vast wealth" claim is the point I took up with her, and certainly seemed to be the point of your post, which replied to mine.

On anything else, hey, have at it, and fair play t'ya, but I don't know what your diocese did.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 9:37:19 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm not sure the Pope will look too kindly on a Jewish comedian telling him what to do with his city.


I seem to recall they got quite a lot of mileage out of listening to some other wacky Jewish guy's ideas on similar issues. But that was a long time ago, and I'm not sure they really find it all that relevant anymore.

A lot of water under the bridge since those days....I won't even mention that was before everyone got rich selling salvation.....ooops I just did,sorry about that.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 9:58:00 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Sorry McBride, but your claim that the church doesn't hold vast wealth is either a bit disingenuous or mistaken.  Consider an individual with $10 million who goes out and buys a snazzy apartment with the money- and then claims that he's broke, because he's got no cash.  Well, it seems that the church has learned this lesson well- don't hold liquid assets, but put your money into things like art and real estate and then cry broke. Rumor has it that the church is one of the largest landowners in Manhattan- it certainly was historically!  So Tazzy's claim that the church has vast wealth- although perhaps not in liquid assets- does seem to hold up.  And its wealth that we all support, since churches aren't taxed.


Sam

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 10:08:38 AM   
mcbride


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Sam,  "rumour" is exactly the problem. The world is, alas, full of nutbar writers who will tell you that (a) the Pope is the antichrist, or worse, and (b) the Vatican owns Manhattan...and so on. If you read back in this thread you'll see some examples.

That simply doesn't scan with the numbers that ARE available on the church's finances. Of course it has art, and grand buildings, and schools, churches, and hospitals. As for vast wealth...forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 10:14:21 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		The antichrists own bookkeepers say he aint broke, mcbride:

http://www.zenit.org/article-1900?l=english

(LOL, I aint christian. ALL religious organizations prey on the feeble minded)

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 12:02:29 PM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The antichrists own bookkeepers say he aint broke, mcbride:

http://www.zenit.org/article-1900?l=english


And who said broke?

If you read back, you'll find that I already posted the numbers from 2007, when the Vatican ran a deficit, again, on revenues of $374 million. That's about 37 cents per Catholic, and as I pointed out, slightly less than the value of Rush Limbaugh's latest contract.

I'm not sure if people are getting hung up on the amounts being expressed in billions of lira, but, as your post notes,  there are -- or were in 2000 -- about 2000 lira to a dollar.

Dollars or lira, it's not a lot of money considering the size and mandate of the institution.

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RE: How to feed the world! - 10/16/2009 12:07:53 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		so, if I could make 37 cents per catholic per year, thats still alotta money left over after a two bit whore and roll of quarters.

maybe they had some years worse than that, but the chigago diocese holds 2billion (american) worth of income producing properties alone.

you can search the link if you want, but they have vast wealth, don't take my word for it, cause I ain't buying your arguements by a damn site.

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