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The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interested i... - 10/11/2009 9:45:14 AM   
RUaPhdStudent


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I'm asking for detailed relationship advice in this thread. If that bothers or bores you, move on.
Because we're a very sexual couple, I need to delve into details of our sex lives. If this bothers you (a laughable idea for this site's audience), move on.

This thread is in "General BDSM chat" because my wife and I started off as a kinky couple; the major problem is that for the last few months she hasn't been so kinky. I'm curious as to what you guys think about our relationship.

-----------------------------------

I met Joanne on Halloween day about 5 years ago at a haunted attraction. We met through my high school sweetheart (Robin), who at the time I was only friends with. Joanne and I immediately developed a crush and friendship with each other. However, Joanne was dating someone else and didn't appear to be interested in kink. It took until late in college when I moved in with Joanne and Robin for me to discover that Joanne was very interested in the idea of a 1950s household. After we started dating, we discovered that she was also into bondage and punishment. Joanne would often times beg me to choke her; she'd say things like "I wish you could rig up a way to suffocate me while I was sucking on you." She loved being restrained and I loved restraining her.

I made (and still make) great efforts to use safety words and ensure her safety. Regardless, it turned out that Joanne's depression problems sometimes manifested themselves during sex, both vanilla and kink, as seizures. Today, I know that Joanne's problems with depression are a _lot_ more severe than I had initially thought. She's been hospitalized (or committed) for depression twice while we've been dating; neither of them were at my prompting. I’ve had to hospitalize her once for uncontrollable, non-epileptic seizures.

Joanne is incredibly prone to self isolation. She always enjoys socializing once she’s done it, but I’ve got to really pressure her to get out of the house. We moved to NYC together last year for us to continue our education at different schools. The experience has been great for me and horrible for her. We live together at a halfway point between our two schools. Whereas I’m enjoying my graduate education program and making friends in it, Joanne hates hers and spends as little time on campus as she can. She never socializes outside of her on-campus duties. I’ve asked her repeatedly if I can spend a day with her and her school friends; she says she’s working on it. While she’s isolating herself, Joanne typically stays home and mopes about, getting nothing done and staring at the ceiling. She can spend whole weekends like that.

----

A large part of the problem between us is that Joanne is very financially dependant on me. Even before we moved to NYC she had no money of her own; basically, she’s never had a real job. We were both fine with this at first; we were both fine with the idea of a 1950s household. In fact we were more than fine, we enjoyed it. In particular, she loved being my sexy 1950s housewife, with me spoiling her financially and her doing all sorts of things that a 1950s housewife ought to do ;)

Now that we’re in NYC her financial situation is more troubling. Her parents have stopped giving her money and she is paying her tuition via loans. Due to the generally bad economy and the fact that she works in one of the hardest hit sectors of it, she hasn’t been able to find a job while in school. In contrast, I’m getting a tuition remission and paycheck via a teaching job at my university and do day trading on the side. She owns no car, I own two. I’ve had to cover her half of the rent more than once. Her financial situation is bad and continues to deteriorate.

We eloped this past summer so she could have free healthcare through my employer (my university). Her financial need was a large part of this; she saved about $1,600 by marrying me (due to her depression, she _needs_ health insurance). To my benefit, she now has access to much better mental health care. Our elopement was my idea; we both signed an extensive prenuptial agreement at my insistence because of our vastly different financial situations.

Simultaneous to her developing financial need, Joanne is making positive leaps and bounds in treating her depression. She has been seeing a mental health professional for about a year now (even before we were married). For example, she no longer spends whole weekends staring at the ceiling of our bedroom. Unfortunately for me, as she makes positive strides with her depression she has become less interested in kink (sexually and in terms of lifestyle) and more interested in vanilla sex and a vanilla lifestyle. I say “unfortunately” because I find vanilla sex and a vanilla lifestyle extremely boring. I usually can’t even perform during vanilla sex because it’s uninteresting. Yes, I’ve got problems too.

I offered Joanne a solution to which she at first enthusiastically agreed. A few weeks ago, I offered her a high hourly rate to be kinky with me. I miss our early relationship, when we both enjoyed kink together and she loved me being rough with her. I’d do anything short of relapsing her into depression to get it back. At the time we brought up the agreement, she told me she still enjoyed kink, and would enjoy it more if I paid her for it.

Unfortunately, our arrangement has relapsed her into depression. She’s back to spending weekends staring at the ceiling. Yesterday she was very depressed all day, having spent much of the morning crying. I tried to comfort her but every time she started trying to rough-house with me. She has always tried to do this while she’s in her depressive fits. Finally I gave in and started rough-housing with her. It snaps her out of her moods temporarily, but I’ve always known that it will end badly someday (we’ve done it many times before).

Yesterday was the day rough-housing ended badly; I ended up fracturing her nose and needing to take her to the ER. Before you cast judgment on me, know that while rough-housing yesterday she bit my arm to the point of drawing a good amount of blood AND kicked me in the balls. In the past, she has dislocated my shoulder while rough-housing. I only engage in rough-housing with her because it cheers her up; I’ve always told her that one day it will end badly and she has always agreed with this. Be aware that she’s about a foot shorter than me, weighs about 60 lbs less than me, and that I bench press 180lbs; minimally, I’m guilty of using excessive force on her while rough-housing.

Today she is accusing me of being abusive and controlling. She’s claiming that I married her to increase her dependence on me, and that I offered her the aforementioned hourly kink arrangement to do the same.

My responses to her accusations are:

1) I’m not overly controlling: I don’t call her every 2 hours we’re away from each other, I don’t impede her friendships (in fact I actively try to help her make friends, since she’s so prone to isolation), I don’t humiliate or degrade her, I don’t force her into sex when she doesn’t want it (which, lately has meant I don’t get sex), and I actively take interest in her academic work and offer compliments related thereto.

2) I’m not physically abusive: yesterday she made me bleed first, and I said no to rough-housing with her at least 3 times. Yesterday was the first time I’ve ever caused an injury to her which will take longer than a few hours to heal (recall that in our early relationship she enjoyed being dominated). Since our hourly-rate-kink agreement, I’ve been very proactive in ensuring her safety and comfort during kink (safety words, safety actions, written list of hard bounds, etc).

3) I’m not mentally abusive: I’ve actively tried to help her with her depression (recall that I was motivated to marry her in part to get her access to better mental health care). I’m not restricting her access to family and friends. For example, I ask her to socialize with her friends at school very often. Similarly, her parents like me and I like them; I communicate with them via email on a bi-weekly basis (her dad day trades in the same market sector as I do, which helps).

She had some responses ready for my responses. She says that I can be overly rough with her. The sole examples she could provide were yesterday’s nose incident and the fact that I’ve always had a habit of grabbing her from behind while she’s walking to kiss her (in our early relationship, she loved this). She’s also convinced that I’ve intentionally tried to make her financially dependant on me; my response was that I’d very much like her to find a real job, but she can’t, and therefore feels the need to blame someone for it.

My questions to the community here are as follows:

1) Am I abusing her (from what I've described, of course), either mentally or physically?
2) Should I give up kink for her ?
3) Given that I love kink and am very hesitant to leave it behind, is breaking up with her the only way to practically express my love for her?
4) Is our hourly kink agreement inherently bad?
5) Is our hourly kink agreement bad given her history of depression?
6) She has always maintained that she was sexually abused by her dad as a child. Do you think this fits well with her depression symptoms?




< Message edited by RUaPhdStudent -- 10/11/2009 9:46:50 AM >
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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 9:55:22 AM   
kiwisub12


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So ..... the healthier she gets mentally, the more vanilla she gets.

And when you gave her money for kink she relapsed into depression.

I hate to say it for you , but i see a pattern here.

She apparently (given the info given) uses bdsm to subsume her depression and mental issues. I rather think if this is accurate, then you have yourself a vanilla wife, who is harmed by bdsm activities , even if they are (on the surface) consentual.

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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 9:56:58 AM   
xssve


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It sounds like she has issues, and yes her depression symptoms do fit with childhood abuse.

I don't know either of you, so I can offer no suggestions other trying to get her to talk about it, and listening to what she has to say, i.e., communication.

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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 9:58:37 AM   
DarkSteven


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First, my disclosure:  I was married (vanilla) to a woman who became depressed.  She was able to get meds to the point where she was not totally incapacitated, but the depression proved to be an insurmountable obstacle that led to divorce.

Forget about the kink for a bit.  You are married to someone who is depressed, and you are working while going to school. You are accomplishing a lot and carrying a lot, and she can't keep up.  I suggest couples counseling with a kink friendly therapist.

Her needs and wants are driving the relationship now.  As a Dom, you resent that.  I've been there, and you have my sympathies.


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 10:08:19 AM   
RUaPhdStudent


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"Kink friendly therapy" is something I'd never considered before.
I'm actively Googling the phrase now. Any recommendations for the NYC/NJ area?


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 10:25:25 AM   
CalifChick


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I'm with kiwi on this one.  For whatever reason (and there appears to be many possibilities), engaging in kink causes her to decompensate mentally.  Whether she can ever overcome that is a question for the professionals (and I doubt they could really give you an answer).

It reminds me of a guy I used to date.  He was a great boyfriend - funny, charming, affectionate, etc., etc. ... when he was drinking.  When he was sober, he was NOT a pleasant person to be around (and that may be the understatement of the year).  I had to encourage him to stop drinking, knowing it would mean we would not be seeing each other anymore.  When your wife is very ill, she can give you the kink you need.  When she is healthy, she cannot.  What do you think is best for her?

Cali


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 10:56:37 AM   
happylittlepet


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FR

You want me to take you serious after I read your introduction (in the Introduction section, that is)?

< Message edited by happylittlepet -- 10/11/2009 10:57:23 AM >


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:00:17 AM   
allthatjaz


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Hi Ru, your post is very sad. It certainly touched my heart anyway.

I agree with Dark Stephen about the joint kink counseling. You have to be able to work at this together. This is not just about Joanne, this is about both of you and only both of you together can work out a solution.
It sounds like your doing an awful lot of compromising but you have to put practical limits on it because otherwise it will destroy who YOU are.

I have never been touched by depression and so I can't start to comprehend what its like.

I wish the two of you all the best.

Maria


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:00:28 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

FR

You want me to take you serious after I read your introduction (in the Introduction section, that is)?


Took the words right out of my mouth, hlp, so which is it OP are you looking for help with your wife or are you "drifting apart" and looking for a sub?


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:03:24 AM   
happylittlepet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

FR

You want me to take you serious after I read your introduction (in the Introduction section, that is)?


Took the words right out of my mouth, hlp, so which is it OP are you looking for help with your wife or are you "drifting apart" and looking for a sub?



Unfortunately, yes. And she is not kinky?

Edit: I was not going to respond to the OP because of the inconsistency in his post. However, his was the pre nup idea, his was the idea to elope, all because of her financial 'issues'; they have a '50's household but she is 'blamed' for not having enough money - duh, that's one of the paradoxes for women in that time: even if they wanted out of the relationship, they couldn't due to lack of funds/job etc. And lack of job was because it didn't fit with the social norms in that time (and with the ego of the male bread winner). With other words, she was damned if she had a job, and damned if she didn't .

You made her dependent on you, but you don't take the responsibility for her, or, if you do, grudgingly.

Maybe this is what keeps the partner of the OP in a helpless mode, feeling useless, and blame herself for it. If she is able to to keep up her studies despite all this, I applaud her, it's very hard to do.

< Message edited by happylittlepet -- 10/11/2009 11:10:57 AM >


_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:07:18 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

ORIGINAL: happylittlepet

FR

You want me to take you serious after I read your introduction (in the Introduction section, that is)?


Took the words right out of my mouth, hlp, so which is it OP are you looking for help with your wife or are you "drifting apart" and looking for a sub?



Unfortunately, yes. And she is not kinky?


On that subject I think that her mental health takes precidence over kink. Look OP I have no issue with your looking for a sub since your wife isn't kinky but you should at least be honest about why instead of stating you are "drifting apart".  That gives the impression your relationship is over whereas here you are making it appear that you are trying to work things out with her. THAT is what pisses me off.

ETA: here is the link to the intro in question....where btw he says he is in NJ not NYC  http://www.collarchat.com/m_2845041/tm.htm


< Message edited by zephyroftheNorth -- 10/11/2009 11:13:13 AM >


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:38:17 AM   
leadership527


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OK, for starters, you have my sympathy. The following are my thoughts only and they are almost certainly going to be largely wrong given how complicated this situation is.

1)Am I abusing her (from what I've described, of course), either mentally or physically?
No. Quite the contrary, it seems to me you are doing everything you can to help the girl.

2) Should I give up kink for her ?
No. I mean, ideally, yes. But honestly, if you cannot give it up, then you cannot. I'm a huge believer in actually putting my money where my mouth is when it comes to Carol so if she needs something, I will in fact bend every effort to providing it. But I am not infinitely flexible and neither are you. Only you can say whether you could give up king without doing such major surgery on yourself that you did some real damage.

3) Given that I love kink and am very hesitant to leave it behind, is breaking up with her the only way to practically express my love for her?
No. Find a third answer. Nothing worth having is easy.

4) Is our hourly kink agreement inherently bad?
No. In fact, I see it as quite good at least in intent. It may have played out poorly, but given the seriously depression your dealing with, almost anything probably would. Don't lose sight of the real problem here which is her depression.

5) Is our hourly kink agreement bad given her history of depression?
Heh, who knows? Maybe, maybe not. But again I think it's the depression that is the problem, not the kink.

6) She has always maintained that she was sexually abused by her dad as a child. Do you think this fits well with her depression symptoms?
Your wife is seriously depressed. I am certainly not about to go tossing armchair pscyh at this situation. This whole thing needs two people who love each other, a lot of patience, and a lot of professional help. The most I can offer you is my observation that your thoughts and actions both (kink included and I'm not kinky) sound like love to me. I think you're doing your best in a very muddled situation. Don't lose faith in either yourself or her if you can avoid it. And don't start blaming the kink when the real problem is clear and requires professional help.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:46:54 AM   
AnimusRex


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OP, you are asking the wrong questions-

You see all her mental health problems as trifling annoyances that stand between you and what gets your dick hard.

Every BDSM relationship is just that, a relationship between two people who are trying to build a life together.
You are in a troubled marriage- you are married to a woman with depression, and you yourself have some issues.

The marriage bed, it is said, becomes a battleground where we fight our inner demons, and each other. Sexuality can become a proxy war for unresolved family issues, childhood issues, power dynamic issues, you name it. Money likewise, is the flashpoint for couples since it is so entwined with power.

A bunch of strangers on a kinky website aren't going to be of much help, especially when we only hear one side of the bed. Yes, you two need counseling, both together and individually.
But in order for any counseling to be effective, the people involved have to decide and commit to doing the hard work that it requires.

Stop thinking in terms of a zero-sum game, that is, that you need to choose between a hot kinky sex life, or a boring vanilla marriage. Good relationships make great sex, not the other way round.

With work and effort, you may discover a real woman behind that kinky player, one that you really want to spend the rest of your life with.

I wish you both the best of luck.





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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 11:48:46 AM   
RUaPhdStudent


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re: zephyr: It's very complicated and I'm sorry for pissing you off. I realize my posts are conflicting. I didn't yet know if I'm "drifting apart" from her or if I want to help her. In retrospect, I want to help her and will probably give up kink for it. My concern, and my reason for posting this thread, are that by staying with her I'll be doing more damage than good.

Re: happylilpet: are you of the opinion that by staying with Joanne I'll do more damage than good? Let's be clear, the two of us never achieved a true 50s household. Joanne is well educated and has been actively looking for employment. I don't mind paying her way (and in fact I usually do); you've exposed a paradox in my relationship that I hadn't before considered and for that I can only be thankful to you.

Re: nyc vs nj: we live in Hoboken, NJ. it's right over the river from Manhattan. I have therefore (incorrectly) used NYC, NJ, and NYC/NJ interchangeably.


I'm sorry I came off as an ass to you two. Thanks for your insights.

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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 12:31:16 PM   
angelikaJ


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She has always maintained that she was sexually abused by her dad as a child. Do you think this fits well with her depression symptoms?

All the therapy and meds are not going to fix things unless that particular issue is addressed.
So, really, you need a kink-friendly therapist who has extensive experience with sexual abuse and trauma, who is also adept at treating depression.

In addition to the Kink Aware Professionals data base, you might find this helpful:

http://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/prof_search.php 

In most cases, medication plus therapy has the best results.
(You did not specify how her depression is being treated)
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy seems to work particularly well with depression.

Self-destructive behaviors are not at all uncommon especially in people wth trauma in their backgrounds

Something to be aware of: if she perceives your actions as being abusive, you need to take that concern very seriously, whether you believe it to be true or not.
At the moment, she sees you are a trusted person and someone she loves, as hurting her.
Is it real?
It is real to her.

edit spelling

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/11/2009 12:32:29 PM >


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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 12:43:13 PM   
RUaPhdStudent


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We found this place in New Jersey
http://www.ipgcounseling.com/

We live near their Jersey City office and I work near their Highland Park office. Better yet, they accept our insurance. Best of all, they are willing to do both one-on-one therapy (e.g. depression) and couples therapy (e.g. our love life).

I have to thank the people who hinted at kink aware professionals; I hadn't considered the idea before and thus feared visiting any psychiatrist :)

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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 1:01:54 PM   
DemonKia


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FR, after read thru

Lots of good stuff, I'm gonna jus' tangent an eensy bit . .. .

For me, at the pulsing heart of BDSM relationship is getting 'emotionally naked' with the other. Going for transparency to get at transcendence. That kinda thing. That idea is at the intersection, for me, of much of what gets discussed here about honesty, accountability, communication.

It's also a significant factor in psycho-therapeutic interactions . . . . .

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RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 1:13:35 PM   
DrkJourney


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First of all I'm sorry to hear of your troubles.  I've had a slave that suffered from depression, and it's not an easy thing.

First, I don't think you are overly controlling, but in her state of mind, and because of her financial situation it may appear to her that you are.

I'm not trying to flame or anything, and you might expect us to pick up on this on our own, but I have to ask, do you love her?  I don't see any mention of love.  You did write that you love kink, but I didn't see where you say that you love "her".   I see you married her for financial reasons (to help her) and so that she will have health insurance, and although helpful, not a good reason to marry.  Love makes a world of difference.  It helps in just how much you can take and how long you want to hang in there.  If you are doing all this because she is someone you care about, and felt that it was your responsiblity to help her and love is not involved you might want to ask yourself a whole new batch of questions.

With the above being said, you have to ask do you love her enough to give up your kink.  It's possible that you could go to that couselor and when the coin stops flipping it turns out you have a vanilla wife.  From what I read it seems like you do.  Seems like therapy and every thing is going just fine, she's even interested in sex, but only vanilla, and when you intro kink back into it, that's when all the trouble starts.  I don't think you should do anything lifestyle oriented with her at this point, whether you pay her or not.  I don't think it's healthy for her from what you wrote.  And if she was abused as a child, she might use kink because she thinks that's how it's supposed to be, even though it makes her feel bad enough to cause depression.  That is something you need to wait on until the therapy suggest otherwise.  Now therapy might help her get back in the swing of things, like it did when you first got together, but you have to be prepared that it just may not....is your love for her stronger than your kink?

I've had at least two sets of friends do this:  If you do love her and want to stay with her, maybe you can change the situation a bit.  Have her as your vanilla wife, and have a part time or live in submissive for you.  To make her still feel apart of it, if the other is a live in, make her the co-dominant, or incorporate her into the relationship in some way so that she won't feel left out.  I would say the alpha slave, but it looks like that role is what sends her into depression.  Maybe a poly household will appeal to her better than a 1950's one?  If part time, do what is comfortable for her, if she is not comfortable with this in her home, then make arrangements to meet this person as often as you need to away from the home.  Just don't do this in a cheating way.  Be up front.  If your kink is stronger than your feelings for her, you might just have to leave.

You know your wife has problems...so when she starts "rough housing" it's really best to just walk away, leave for a bit, whatever it takes.  If she's depressed and gets in her head that she needs to call the cops because she feels like she's being abused, even though she started it, you could find yourself in jail.  I have a friend who is clinically depressed and refuses to take her meds.  She starts things like this with her guy and when he complies with her rough housing, she turns it around and plays the victim, and claims abuse. I don't think she does it to be mean, she's just a very mentally unstable individual and this is how she gets some form of comfort/attention I guess, I don't know or understand, I'm not a doctor...so please be careful.  The guy has hung in for so long because he loves her, but he told me about two weeks ago that it's just about over for him, there is only so much one person can take.  They never married.

Don't know if any of this makes sense to you right now, due to you being in the middle of this right now, or from my rambling, typed this fast, with nails, and no glasses so please forgive any typos..lol  but as I said I've been through this before, so if you have any questions feel free to ask.

I do wish you good luck and loads of patience.

take care



_____________________________

...Look into my eyes and I'll own you....



(in reply to RUaPhdStudent)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 1:26:13 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I ended up fracturing her nose and needing to take her to the ER


Nice try, but you have to be really good to manipulate people - you're mediocre at best. You talk too much, and you should have been arrested after that caper.

Writing a tome and posting it here looking to be told you're right is not how the world works. See a counselor, have a real conversation with somebody you cannot manipulate. And try to leave out the "how we got here" stuff - that's totally irrelevant to what happens today. "How I got here"? is how addicts justify their addiction. It is part of the manipulative mindset, the interweave with the partner, when you should be taking a long and hard look at yourself, and your functioning. Bleh.

(in reply to RUaPhdStudent)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The 1950s housewife I married is no longer interest... - 10/11/2009 1:51:09 PM   
RUaPhdStudent


Posts: 56
Status: offline
I'm sorry you feel that way antipode.

Re: love:
Yes, I love her extremely deeply. We have a _lot_ in common outside of kink. She's been my best friend for quite a few years now; she's been my best friend since before we were dating and/or screwing. I've climbed mountains, raced cars, and driven across america 3 times with this girl. But, unfortunately, like drkjourney said, there is only so much someone can take without questioning things or becoming desperate.

< Message edited by RUaPhdStudent -- 10/11/2009 1:56:17 PM >

(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 20
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