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GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:09:54 AM   
Anarrus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

we have become a nation of greed.  not only at the corportate level, but at the personal level as well.  and its a system that is on its way to imploding.


tazzygirl said the above in another post. I'm quoting her here (and without asking) because I know she'd be ok with it.

So...
Have we become a nation of greed?  Is that what drives us and defines us as Americans? Has our quest for bigger, better, more lavish and expensive and simply our want of more of anything and everything stripped us of our compansion and our humanity?
I'd like to think differently (in my idealistic way) that we're defined by more than that as a nation or even that defining us as that at all falls far from the true mark.

Yet, I hear people bragging that they've paid $40,000 plus for their vehicle or bought $500+ seats to a rock concert and seem proud of the fact that whatever they bought was expensive and excessive, as if spending that much somehow elevated their sense of self-worth and, worse yet, one-upd the other guy.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm all for a certain amount of reward and gain for effort and excellence in our work and I know too, that a certain amount of healthy competition is good for the soul. I'm also not that naive enough to think that some financial reward and gain in material wealth isn't what drives many of us to do whatever it is we do.

But when is enough enough? When does want of those rewards and gain in material wealth go beyond what is reasonable (and yes I'm well aware that what may be reasonable to me may not be reasonable to you) and become greed? When does the spirit of our competitive nature turn on us and become something ugly and destructive instead of spiritually invigorating?  When do wanting reward and gain or to succeed through competitiveness become ethically and morally unsound and unreasonable choices for us as human beings and moreso as Americans?

I'm curious..
How do you define greed?
Is it beneficial or detrimental to us as human beings and as a nation?

I'll leave you with two quotes to think about-

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind."
                                                                              ....Gordon Gecko in the movie WALL STREET

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
                      Matthew 19:24

                              

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:18:39 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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Status: offline 		And how did "Matthew" know that? He do a round trip to heaven did he?
Translation; "Give *US* your money!"

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 10/14/2009 11:19:28 AM >

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:34:29 AM   
Anarrus


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Status: offline 		I'd pretty much agree with your translation Popeye.
Hell maybe it IS all about greed after all

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:40:26 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Isn't that Christ talking rather than Matthew?

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:46:18 AM   
tazzygirl


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like i would ever even dream of saying you couldnt!

and, yes, i agree...

quote:

Hell maybe it IS all about greed after all


with one addition....

Hell..... maybe it IS all about greed after all


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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:50:05 AM   
Anarrus


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Status: offline 		yeh it is, but can we move past who said what when?
I can see now I should have quoted Ghandi or Lao Tse instead

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"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 11:59:52 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Confuscius had a lot of nasty things to say about greed in the analects, iirc. In fact, I think he made a pretty defined distinction between that and wanting to be sure that you could feed your family, or whatever.

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 12:13:50 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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Status: offline 		Greed is bad the moment it causes you to take something that someone else needs, simply because you want.

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 12:17:03 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'll definitely go along with that.

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 9:42:07 PM   
Termyn8or


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I have asserted before that greed is a disease just like an addiction. I see the difference between those addicted to something and those who partake recreationally. Taking drug users, for example those not addicted generally will share, while the addicted will not.

If we subscribe to this definition, then it is the most undiagnosed addiction on the planet, simply because it is not seen as an addiction. It could be said that we are all addicted to food, air and water, but that would not be accurate since those are necessities.

Now as a few discussions have gone, it is reasonable to think that with the proper planning and organization, the need for money could be removed. Therefore it is not a necessity, and therefore the addiction might become definable, or at least discernable. Once that happens it will be easy to see.

And there is one thing about addiction, there is never enough. Like they say about alcoholics, one drink is too many and a hundred aren't enough. So when is enough enough ? NEVER.

Greed matches the definition of addiction so closely I could hardly ignore the point. I really wouldn't try to argue against it.

Let's also stick another nail right here, you think Bill Gates is rich, but there are much richer people, by orders of magnitude. They will never ever need any money in their life. Even inflation couldn't even make a dent on them. With perhaps one percent of their wealth, they and their progeny would live in the lap of luxury for many decades at least. They have no need for money whatsoever. But they still want it. They still crave it and yearn for it.

"There's money junkies, dope junkies sex junkies booze junkies..." - The Godz.

T

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/14/2009 10:05:49 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		It seems to me there is nothing wrong with making money as long as it is balanced with charity. The US does this better than any country in history...So we may be greedy and stingy but far less of both then any other.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/14/2009 10:06:30 PM >

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 3:45:25 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It seems to me there is nothing wrong with making money as long as it is balanced with charity. The US does this better than any country in history...


Does what better?  Make money or provide charity?

If it is the latter then it is just more flag-waving propaganda.


Commitment to Development Index

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 4:06:57 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Greed is right up there at the top of my deadly sin list. The thing is that I do not see the obvious as being the problem. For the greedy and wealthy, it is the power that is obtained that becomes the addiction. Then the abuse of that power.

I like the statement Ialdaboath made. But for me, again, it is not necessarily the obvious. I think it is far more insidious and dangerous. I was watching a programme on the Kennedys the other night. The power that Joe Sr had, because of his wealth and greed, was rediculous. Our late president would have never been allowed to stay in Harvard, let alone attain the presidency, if not for his father's power. He bragged to friends about buying votes. Joe Sr was a sociopathic narccisist if ever there was one. He was greedy and used what he amassed to further his power/greed. And my point in how it applies to the statement Ialdaboath made, that type of greed/power removes power from the people.

I am all for people benefitting from the fruits of their labours, unfortunately the people that tend to get the most fruit didn't do so for more vacations, expensive cars, or fancy jewels. They did so because of the power of that fruit. Their charitable donations usually do much more for them than the charity they are promoting. 

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 6:48:09 AM   
einstien5201


Posts: 63
Joined: 9/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus
"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind."
                                                                              ....Gordon Gecko in the movie WALL STREET

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
                      Matthew 19:24

                              


Here's the difference. Gordon Gecko is talking about the physical, temporal world. Greed works. Capitalism works because it relies on people acting in thier own-self interest, which we generally do. Communism failed because it was founded on the principle of people doing things that are not in thier own best interest. Jesus was talking about how to enter a spiritual realm. If you'll look, many of the things that He talks about how to live a good Christian life are contrary to what makes sense to have a functioning society. "Turn the other cheek" is very noble and loving, but if society as a whole did it, we'd have murders thieves and rapists running amok because they were never punished.

Also, you'll notice that he didn't say "A greedy man", but "A rich man" the difference being quite significant. A rich man will have trouble letting go of his things, especially when to follow Jesus in the early church drew persecution and shunning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Let's also stick another nail right here, you think Bill Gates is rich, but there are much richer people, by orders of magnitude.


Last I heard, Bill Gates was *the* richest man alive. Who have you found that's richer?

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 9:31:35 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Rule there is no doubt we publicly and most importantly privately have provided more money and support to charities then any other country over the last 50 years…. hell over human history.

Some say” will you contributions are small compared to your GNP” Searching the net I found many conflicting reports. But all have our GNP to charity in the top 10 and many find we are at the top. So it is hard to figure what is truth. All however agree we have given the most no matter the ratios. I guess that is what countes.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 10:37:50 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201
Last I heard, Bill Gates was *the* richest man alive. Who have you found that's richer?

The Sultan of Brunei?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 10:56:16 AM   
Anarrus


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Joined: 11/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus
"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind."
                                                                             ....Gordon Gecko in the movie WALL STREET

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
                     Matthew 19:24

                             


Here's the difference. Gordon Gecko is talking about the physical, temporal world. Greed works. Capitalism works because it relies on people acting in thier own-self interest, which we generally do. Communism failed because it was founded on the principle of people doing things that are not in thier own best interest. Jesus was talking about how to enter a spiritual realm. If you'll look, many of the things that He talks about how to live a good Christian life are contrary to what makes sense to have a functioning society. "Turn the other cheek" is very noble and loving, but if society as a whole did it, we'd have murders thieves and rapists running amok because they were never punished.

Also, you'll notice that he didn't say "A greedy man", but "A rich man" the difference being quite significant. A rich man will have trouble letting go of his things, especially when to follow Jesus in the early church drew persecution and shunning.



Hi einstein,

I should have known the quote from Matthew 19:24 would come back to bite me in the ass.  I'm not religious nor do I consider myself a Christian yet I used that quote because it was one all of us have heard at one time or another. But, I agree that he didn't say "a greedy man".  Yes the difference is significant. I should have used a more relevant quote.

Anyway, I have no argument with capitalism as a means to end and I'm not condeming it. Greed is a concept in and of itself . It can and does exist independently of capitalism. Self-interest, as you put it, isn't a bad concept, nor is capitalism in meeting basic needs and even reasonable wants (again reasonable is open to interpretation). However, greed, to me seems an irrational form of self-interest which if unchecked by ethical or moral boundaries has potential to harm as much as benefit. Aesop wrote a very simple fable The Dog and The Bone, illustrating the concept.   Too, there is quite a bit of difference between self-interest and selfish-interest. Even Adam Smith (the high priest of capitalism) understood and differentiated between the concepts of beneficial self-interest and selfish-interest (greed), the former being beneficial in a bargaining scenario while the later being deterimental to reaching an agreement.

To me Gordon Gecko's philosophy was more one of selfish-interest (greed) then of self-interest. If you saw the film, you know that in the end his greed blinded his ambition and resulted in his downfall. Now it just seems to me that something loosely related occurred on Wall St not too long ago, didn't it?

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 12:01:51 PM   
Mercnbeth


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The 'Gordon Gecko' character is a combination of two real life individuals; Carl Icahn, and Michael Milken.

If you like the movie 'Wall Street' and want to see the real companies identified click on the Icahn link. 'Teldar Paper' was the Hammermill Paper Company; 'Bluestar' was TWA. The real life stories, short of the legendary "greed is good" speech at the shareholders meeting are more interesting than the Hollywood version.

I was at the start of my career in NYC when this was occurring; naive and still holding on to the belief that 'good intent' and what is 'right' ultimately prevailed. The lesson I remember was the major distinction between the Hollywood fairy tale alluding to Gecko losing it all in the end, and reality. Milken, like Gecko, was charged and prosecuted on 98 counts including 'racketeering' under the RICO statute and for 'Securities Fraud'. He ended up pleading guilty but never served one day in jail.Instead he was fined $600 Million. He wrote a check - It cleared.

What's the lesson? Whether "greed is good" or debatable. Obviously whether motivated by greed or some other drive these individuals used their intelligence and reasoning to exploit the 'system'; even going over the line by using their contacts. Not many of us have similar access. Unlike the debatable 'greed is good', there is a truth behind this quote, although the numbers may have changed from 1987:
The richest one percent of this country owns half our country's wealth, five trillion dollars. One third of that comes from hard work, two thirds comes from inheritance, interest on interest accumulating to widows and idiot sons and what I do, stock and real estate speculation. It's bullshit. You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it. Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it.
We are a "part of it". We may be an exploited, naive, stupid, selfish, practical (pick the adjective which best serves your agenda) 'Bud Fox' type 'insider', or the immigrant owner of a janitorial service, never knowing that Bud Fox 'investment' in him and his company was motivated by the access it provided to locked offices and files. We are all used by these individuals and the 'system' that they insure remains in place through PACs and the elected representatives funded by them to maintain their power.

Realizing that and using that knowledge to your advantage is the best position you can hope to achieve because of another quote from the movie which reflected reality in 1987 as it does today; "It's a zero sum game, somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another."

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 3:16:31 PM   
Anarrus


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Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Merc,

Thanks for the insight. Very interesting stuff indeed.
I'm sure those must have been very interesting times for you to be in NYC and around the financial district.
And you're absolutely on the mark..good intent and what it is right don't always prevail, nor even pay the bills in some instances.
I agree with you about the realization and use of that knowledge as an advantage.
It is a zero sum game. When all's said and done it is what it is. We live with it.

Be well

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RE: GREED - when is enough enough? - 10/15/2009 3:50:57 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Realizing that and using that knowledge to your advantage is the best position you can hope to achieve because of another quote from the movie which reflected reality in 1987 as it does today; "It's a zero sum game, somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred from one perception to another."



That's a truly sad philosophy to live your life by.

But worse than sad, it's the reason why we are in this economic situation.

We no longer equate business or investing with any code of morality or ethics, it has become whatever earns the most profit under any circumstance.

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