RE: Can't vs Won't

Join Our Community

Collarchat.com

Home Login Search

RE: Can't vs Won't

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Can't vs Won't

Page: << < prev 9 10 [11] 12 13 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 4:08:57 PM

Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline

Elisabella,

what we miss on this forum is a structured alternative to the "extremist " (as in pushed to its last consequence, not with negative connotations) power exchange. Something I would call "humanistic power exchange" which takes into consideration that all people have limits, hard, soft or in between, and that all people have limitations too, even masters, dominant or whatever you want to call them.

Be seeing you,

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 4:19:04 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein

what we miss on this forum is a structured alternative to the "extremist " (as in pushed to its last consequence, not with negative connotations) power exchange. Something I would call "humanistic power exchange" which takes into consideration that all people have limits, hard, soft or in between, and that all people have limitations too, even masters, dominant or whatever you want to call them.

what we're lacking is the ability for people to understand that their reality isn't someone else's. just because that is YOUR view of the lifestyle and someone elects to practice differently doesn't imply they are extreme or lacking humanity. the reverse could be said about your practices and when placed under a microscope and dissected one could surmise and question who's really in charge. but again, that structure works for you and that's fine. it needn't be acceptable to me because i'm not on the kneel.

furthermore, it is ridiculously insulting to assume that my choice is extreme because an individual lacks that capacity, desire, or for some the balls to step up and take control or surrender in that vain. i have heard every imaginable adjective applied to this form of exchange and i've begun to wonder if the dissenters real issue stems from a lack of ability to do the same versus the capacity of grasping that we're individuals and not garish clones mimicking one another.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 5:12:32 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

furthermore, it is ridiculously insulting to assume that my choice is extreme because an individual lacks that capacity, desire, or for some the balls to step up and take control or surrender in that vain. i have heard every imaginable adjective applied to this form of exchange and i've begun to wonder if the dissenters real issue stems from a lack of ability to do the same versus the capacity of grasping that we're individuals and not garish clones mimicking one another.

porcelaine

I'm not sure why you find it insulting unless you have some expectation that other people shouldn't find it so, or wouldn't find it so.

I live in what would easily be described as an extreme way ......I certainly haven't lost the idea that for some people it's going to be viewed as extreme. It's not the slightest bit insulting.

agirl

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 5:16:20 PM

Posts: 11
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline

If she says I won't/can't do it and you do it anyway you are not a dom, you are an ass and a fool.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 5:32:24 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I'm not sure why you find it insulting unless you have some expectation that other people shouldn't find it so, or wouldn't find it so.

I live in what would easily be described as an extreme way ......I certainly haven't lost the idea that for some people it's going to be viewed as extreme. It's not the slightest bit insulting.

perhaps you are fine with that but i'm not. simply because my way is different doesn't mean it is extreme. if that is the case, i'm well within my right to denounce certain practices as not bdsm at all and more akin to other paths instead. however, i don't affix a label to it. that's merely how they choose to relate. the same choice i'm exercising as well.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 5:53:26 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I'm not sure why you find it insulting unless you have some expectation that other people shouldn't find it so, or wouldn't find it so.

I live in what would easily be described as an extreme way ......I certainly haven't lost the idea that for some people it's going to be viewed as extreme. It's not the slightest bit insulting.

perhaps you are fine with that but i'm not. simply because my way is different doesn't mean it is extreme. if that is the case, i'm well within my right to denounce certain practices as not bdsm at all and more akin to other paths instead. however, i don't affix a label to it. that's merely how they choose to relate. the same choice i'm exercising as well.

porcelaine

Yes, It's obvious we are fine with it. We know we live in a different way and understand that that could quite easily be seen as *extreme* . We'd waste a lot of energy getting all *insulted* by that.
We're quite realistic.

I still don't quite understand why you feel *ridiculously insulted* by anyone's elses perception of a type of choice that is clearly not shared or understood.

We tend to expect our type of relationship to be seen as quite extreme. .....which is why I mentioned that perhaps you *expect* people to see things the way you do.

agirl

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 5:53:59 PM

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I said much the same in my earlier post, catize...but to play dominant's advocate for a moment, how does a dominant decide that the "I won't/can't" is valid and of the "second" variety that you speak of rather than the first without asking? In asking for explanation, does the dominant automatically show that he/she does not trust the submissive OR is the asking a valid dynamic-based way to ascertain information? Trust IS a two-way street but trust is something that is built not just on yesterday's actions and behavior but on today's actions and behaviors.

A submissive who says I can't should have a legitimate physical/mental/emotional reasoning behind it and be able to express that. A submissive who says I won't should be able to prove that their answer is actually of the "I can't" variety rather than of the, as has been noted, "I wish to give all that I can to you ... as long as it fits what I want in MY world, not yours or ours" variety. After all, one of the many vaunted things about D/s and M/s is communication. No one is saying that communication is easy and some hard things to hear will probably come out of it. However, I am of the belief that hard things can be said and while they won't all be pretty, the choice to get to all information possible does not have to result in a lack of thought over how best to express yourself within the dynamic.

I guess that I just get tired of the fact that in D/s when a dominant says “you will” there is, in these type discussions anyway, a propensity for the majority to say it would be arrogant and unacceptable for the submissive to ask ‘why must I?’ Is that lack of trust or simply a request for more information?

“I won’t” is information. Asking for clarification can certainly be a door to communication and understanding, but sometimes the explanation gets mired in emotionalism and that can be as traumatic as the specific request or command. If I want to go through the pain of dealing with my bogeyman I will pay a professional.
The two dominants in my life accepted without question my few “won’ts”. They either get it elsewhere if it is something they want, or they aren’t interested in it anyway.
Again, here is where my opinion goes against much of what is accepted about submission. Wishing to give all that I can does not mean that I am willing to compromise my integrity and self-worth. I submit fully up to a certain line. If my line is not acceptable, with or without explanation, if it is viewed as selfish, it is best to move on. Both R. and S. focus on all the ways I do submit, and have repeatedly expressed their satisfaction with the relationship(s) we have.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 6:11:47 PM

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

And, there will always be two interpretations of how legitimate a certain reason is. And when ridiculous reasons get paraded out as legitimate, then whose interpretation should be yielded to?

The problem here is that what may be a paramount item to me could well be ridiculous to you.

I'm terrified of duct tape on skin, especially as a gag. Most people think this is ridiculous and told me they would not accept this as a hard limit. The fact that it doesn't give them a panic attack doesn't change the fact that it does do so to me. So being told my reason is ridiculous, that my feelings are of no validity, and that he is uninterested in how this effects me is something that to me is unacceptable.

But then I never said I was in a obedience based relationship nor a service based one. Mine is based on emotional transparency and as such, my feelings being accepted, me not being invalidated is a sticking point. Because without that, I won't be here. This is the first time in my life where I am always heard and that matters to me.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 6:11:57 PM

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falkenstein
what we miss on this forum is a structured alternative to the "extremist " (as in pushed to its last consequence, not with negative connotations) power exchange. Something I would call "humanistic power exchange" which takes into consideration that all people have limits, hard, soft or in between, and that all people have limitations too, even masters, dominant or whatever you want to call them.

Henry:

I agree that to some extent, there is a bit of who can be the domliest/slaviest. Humans tend to compete with each other. But really, pretty much everyone here would agree that there is no prize for having more or less limits. There's no competition anywhere and nothing to win. I don't hink anyone's going to argue with you that for a LOT of people, something way less than total is going to be the best answer.

But I also feel like you read into some of these posts things that are not there. Honestly, my marriage is happy and filled with love. We live together in a tiny little cottage and, apparently, can spend all day with each other, day in and day out. There's nothing inhuman about it. My personal opinion is that we live the very normal, very vanilla marriage that poets write about. That is the baseline truth for at least my marriage. No matter how "extreme" the authority dynamic looks, it's all about love.

It is my suspicion that way more women that you'd think would be happy to give me the submission Carol provides... thrilled even... to get what she gets in return. And I'm talking about normal, vanilla, never-posted-on-collarme, type women.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Falkenstein)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 6:12:16 PM

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I don't think, in this particular matter, D/s vs M/s really makes any difference. As a matter of fact, I would say that, given the extreme level of trust on the part of the submissive and the extremely intimate knowledge the dominant would have of the submissive, in M/s it is even MORE unacceptable

I put that last sentence in because there has been some distinctions made in this thread between M/s and D/s. It was merely an after thought to indicate I cannot speak about an M/s dynamic because I am not in one.

quote:

If my partner couldn't trust that my motives and intent were as pure as possible, then I do not see why he would bother with the dynamic at all.

I would add, not only why would he bother with the dynamic, but why would he want to continue to dominate me?

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to lovingpet)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 6:43:28 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I still don't quite understand why you feel *ridiculously insulted* by anyone's elses perception of a type of choice that is clearly not shared or understood.

you don't understand because you're assuming i have an expectation that is nonexistent. the purpose of the comment was to discuss differences, not the conclusions you've conjured. i could truthfully care less what anyone thinks.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to agirl)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 7:31:16 PM

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

I'm not sure why you find it insulting unless you have some expectation that other people shouldn't find it so, or wouldn't find it so.

I live in what would easily be described as an extreme way ......I certainly haven't lost the idea that for some people it's going to be viewed as extreme. It's not the slightest bit insulting.

perhaps you are fine with that but i'm not. simply because my way is different doesn't mean it is extreme. if that is the case, i'm well within my right to denounce certain practices as not bdsm at all and more akin to other paths instead. however, i don't affix a label to it. that's merely how they choose to relate. the same choice i'm exercising as well.

porcelaine

I don't think you should take extreme as an insult - technically it *is* extreme. Complete submission is one extreme. Absolutely no submission or compromise at all is the opposite extreme. I'd call both of those relationships extreme, not just your type - the standard joke of a husband and wife still splitting the electric bill down to the last cent so it's "equal" is one example of the latter type of extremism.

If its possible to quantify these things I guess you could look at it in terms of standard deviations in what percentage of will is surrendered :P

There are many more posts on this thread I do want to respond to but I have to do some errands and can't right now. I just wanted to throw this out there - extreme sometimes just means extreme, on either side of the spectrum.

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 7:37:42 PM

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

I don't think, in this particular matter, D/s vs M/s really makes any difference. As a matter of fact, I would say that, given the extreme level of trust on the part of the submissive and the extremely intimate knowledge the dominant would have of the submissive, in M/s it is even MORE unacceptable

I put that last sentence in because there has been some distinctions made in this thread between M/s and D/s. It was merely an after thought to indicate I cannot speak about an M/s dynamic because I am not in one.

quote:

If my partner couldn't trust that my motives and intent were as pure as possible, then I do not see why he would bother with the dynamic at all.

I would add, not only why would he bother with the dynamic, but why would he want to continue to dominate me?

I'm sorry if it seemed I was directing the D/s M/s thing at you. It was not my intent. Since there has been some discussion of this among other posters, I was trying to preemptively address it. My apologies.

The second part, I agree.

lovingpet

_____________________________

If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

10 Fluffy pts.

(in reply to catize)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 7:38:08 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

If its possible to quantify these things I guess you could look at it in terms of standard deviations in what percentage of will is surrendered :P

that's precisely what it is. you have mail as well.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 8:28:42 PM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

But which deviations are the standard ones?

We're all deviants here.

NZ, I know a lot of very heavy masochists and pretty extreme submissives who have tickling as a limit due to bad experiences with it in childhood. I think it's perfectly reasonable, even though I mostly like getting tickled, but several of them have had potential partners try to "push" that limit or outright do it when it has been set as a hard limit, because "oh, it's silly."

I don't tend to phrase things quite as baldly as "I can't," or "I won't," nor quite as floridly as porcelaine did (not that there's anything wrong with being poetic). We had a few in-depth discussions about limits before I became owned by my Master. Instead of making blanket hard limits for the most part, I tried to isolate the specific aspects that were an issue. For example, I'd strongly prefer not to have urine, scat, or vomit involved, especially in play. I don't consider vomiting to be a hard limit, since is a relatively likely outcome of a type of play we engage in, but he doesn't *deliberately* make me throw up, or eat it as was demanded in one profile I read.

Scat and pee aren't quite a hard limit in general, even though I don't *want* to be around either, especially during play, but on my face or internally is not something I can cope with (going back to the likelihood of inducing vomit thing there). There were other things that weren't hard limits, or which I even referred to as limits, but had had a bad experience with, or was fearful of, such as needles. I'd almost passed out the one time I'd had a playpiercing, even though I'm fine with shots and donating blood. A little over a week ago, he inserted 5 needles in me, and it was a wonderful experience. He didn't pressure me into it at all, it was actually more that my playpartner wanted me to do them to her. So, I got brave and offered to give it another try. We tried to address all of the possible causes of the problem the previous time. In general, I'm very much willing to be molded, and to do things I dislike/don't want to do. He's not especially interested in high protocol, but if he developed an interest, or wished it of me for an event/etc., I'd be happy to comply. I'm not a fan of S/slashy s/Speak or Weird Capitalisation of Pronouns, and if he had demanded them right off the bat, I would have worried that he was primarily or only experienced online. However, if he felt like having me do so, I'd comply, even though I think it's a bit silly (and there are some people I respect a lot who *do* have a lot of real-time experience, like LadyPact, who use the capitalisation protocol online).

LaT, my previous Dominant specifically felt I wasn't expressing submission except when I actively disliked what he was doing at the time. He didn't break any of my limits, but did things that I was neutral toward, disliked but weren't a limit, or normally loved, but harder than my pain tolerance. I agree that in my opinion, I can be submissive even when the service or activity is something I love, but it's quite possible to find a compromise in this area.

Elisabella, sometimes a "can't," even for physical reasons, is able to become a "can" over time. For example, a few months ago, I physically could not go up into a backbend at all from lying down, or go into a handstand. I'm still pretty mediocre at both at this point, and have a lot of work to do, but I'm able to do them. I didn't tell my gymnastics teacher "I can't do that" or "I won't do that," I just tried my best, and improved over time. The same thing often happens with things that I have difficulty with in BDSM as well, whether for physical or emotional reasons. When I fall short, my Master expresses his pleasure with me for trying my best, and we either take a little break and get back to it, or leave it for another time. He knows I'm trying my best, and putting the effort in, and that's more important than the outcome (for a lot of things, it depends on what it is, and what the problem is). For example, when I was helping him pack, and doing some housework the night before taking him to the airport, he told me to find a particular item he wanted for the trip. I looked all over, in various boxes and drawers, under the bed, etc., but wasn't able to locate it. He certainly didn't punish me for not being able to locate it, or get disappointed in *me* for failing, he just wished I'd been able to track down the darn thing!

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 8:49:06 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

I don't tend to phrase things quite as baldly as "I can't," or "I won't," nor quite as floridly as porcelaine did (not that there's anything wrong with being poetic).

i know i explained this to someone off the thread, but the response i provided was what i would give to someone i'm mentoring. if they have trouble expressing themselves or find their speech might need a little tweaking, i will provide simulated experiences to assist. i'll be the first to admit that my background is very protocol oriented and those are typically the Men i serve. my Mentor was the same. even still i've gotten more casual than i'd like and i'm trying to realign myself as we speak.

i've been asked to embrace things that i didn't like. you spoke of changing case and i'm sure it is pretty evident i would rather not stretch my pinky. when i addressed my Mentor this was mandatory. to the point where She made it abundantly clear it was something i had to do. i conceded and was obedient and i've come to a middle ground on capitalization.

i spoke with Someone that required the same and i think that is probably why i'm more cognizant now. i wasn't doing it as much in the past but now it is becoming habitual. both situations represent concessions i made to what i believed to be correct for me in deference to Their requests. i never uttered one word that gave the impression that i was unwilling to comply. i would have a real problem finding a justifiable reason for my ambivalence that wouldn't result in unpleasant consequences. it simply wasn't worth it.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 9:01:11 PM

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

Oh, I might privately think it is a bit silly to use that capitalisation convention, but I wouldn't complain about it or say anything disrespectful. As things go, it's extremely minor! If my Master reinforced it a bit, he could probably very easily help me associate it more strongly with submission, and I very much feel respect toward him! I think I was a bit unclear in my post, I meant the way that you described it in the thread was more flowery than I would probably put it in a conversation with my Master, not that you necessarily will automatically talk that way yourself. I'd assume that would depend on what you were expected/ordered to do. When we started dating, he didn't want me to call him Sir or Master until it came out naturally when we were interacting. Now, I usually call him one or the other, though I have permission to use his first name instead, and am required to if we are in public and can be overheard. Sometimes I can be very eloquent and almost poetic in making a request, but he doesn't generally require it of me. If he did want me to, I wouldn't feel I was acting or faking, though, just complying with more formal manners.

We have most of the "limits" stuff dealt with, and will address things in the future as they come up. If something happens, for example, I feel sick to my stomach, or exhausted, or muscle sore, I'd inform him when we started playing. Most likely, he can make adjustments to keep me as comfortable as possible, and still get his needs met.

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 9:03:43 PM

Posts: 235
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Submissive A says "I can't do electroplay, I have a pacemaker."
Submissive B says "I won't do electroplay, it's a complete turnoff."

The end result is no electroplay so why are there so many posts in the vein of "It's okay if s/he can't do it, but if s/he just won't then it's a problem"?

Hi,

A's status as "no electroplay with this one" has little or nothing to do with any power dynamic. It simply checks an item off the menu.

If submissive B is talking to a dominant, and he or she is one for whom dominance is of equal or greater importance to electroplay (or whatever), then it is an obstacle to the power dynamic, which actually does more then merely take an item off the play list.

For some, the power dynamic is the key element and is paramount, regardless of any particular activity. Then, there are actually dominants who would not bat an eye at submissive B because they recognize that dominants and submissives come in all degrees and either figure they will eventually be able to overcome that initial "won't" or they just don't care enough about electroplay (or whatever) and are willing to take their jollies elseways.

Peace,
aj

_____________________________

Throw me to the wolves because there's order in the pack (RHCP)

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 9:23:35 PM

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Oh, I might privately think it is a bit silly to use that capitalisation convention, but I wouldn't complain about it or say anything disrespectful. As things go, it's extremely minor! If my Master reinforced it a bit, he could probably very easily help me associate it more strongly with submission, and I very much feel respect toward him! I think I was a bit unclear in my post, I meant the way that you described it in the thread was more flowery than I would probably put it in a conversation with my Master, not that you necessarily will automatically talk that way yourself. I'd assume that would depend on what you were expected/ordered to do. When we started dating, he didn't want me to call him Sir or Master until it came out naturally when we were interacting. Now, I usually call him one or the other, though I have permission to use his first name instead, and am required to if we are in public and can be overheard. Sometimes I can be very eloquent and almost poetic in making a request, but he doesn't generally require it of me. If he did want me to, I couldn't feel I was acting or faking, though, just complying with more formal manners.

i've come to terms with it. i did feel the same and suggested that i didn't need to shift to acknowledge someone's role. She didn't agree and posed a question that i never forgot. it coincided with my beliefs about personal choice and strengthened them tremendously. now as an avid dissenter to this i will make a confession, it does inspire mindfulness. my fingers move fluently on their own and admittedly when i'm speaking of Him my mood is much different than before. so perhaps there is a reason for it. who knows.

i don't talk like that. *laughs* however, once i find my groove so to speak you'll be able to tell through my posts. my deviation from certain protocols in speech spills over in the things i say. i call those my freudian slips that i may not catch before they come tumbling out of my mouth or onto the screen. my style of writing is freehand. i don't formulate the thought in advance, but write as i type instead. i've forgotten things that were once automatic which suggests it is necessary to tighten my belt.

i don't have a problem using honorifics. i was raised that way and it seems natural. my discomfort actually stems from very relaxed protocols. if the person is laid back and doesn't address those things it makes me feel odd. i know this has a lot to do with my background and experiences. i prefer environments and Owners that are more exacting and firm. the formality is very comforting. in spite of my bobbles and muck ups on occasion. it is a much better place for me.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Can't vs Won't - 10/20/2009 10:48:27 PM

Surrenderwithin

Posts: 368
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline

I would not consider it to be an insult that one would see how I live as an extreme. It does not seem an extreme to me until I compare it with choices of others. However, on that same note if one were to call me extreme. On the other side of the coin how would they feel about being called dabblers or some other minial term?

_____________________________

"There are 2 kinds of strengths: the strength to lead, and to follow; the strength to control, and to yield. There are 2 kinds of power: the power to strip another's soul bare, and the power to stand naked." - Yaldah Tovah
*15 Nz Pts*

(in reply to agirl)

Page: << < prev 9 10 [11] 12 13 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Can't vs Won't

Page: << < prev 9 10 [11] 12 13 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2024

Terms of Service

0.129