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Question - Adults with ASD and Parents of Special Needs... - 10/26/2009 1:59:50 PM

NovelApproach

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Didn't want to derail the main thread so I thought I'd ask here.

First, a little background - a very close friend of mine IRL has a very high-functioning form of Asperger's. He functions really well on a day to day basis and therapy has given him almost all the skills he needs to have normal social interactions with other people. The one area he's lacking in is romance and sexual situations. I've agreed, as someone with a background in therapy, to teach him these skills. The plan so far is to teach simple, step-by-step, flowchart-ish methods for flirting and recognizing interest, determining lack of interest, propositioning a partner, etc, as well as basic bedroom techniques.

So. The question is: for those of you on the Autistic Spectrum and/or parenting young adults on the Spectrum, what do you wish could be or had been expressly taught in regards to relationships and sex? Things that HAVE been expressly taught and proved useful would be great too.

*Edited for spelling

< Message edited by NovelApproach -- 10/26/2009 2:02:57 PM >

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RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/26/2009 2:09:22 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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Problems in the relationship and non verbal communication areas, that sounds familiar, very familiar, but can it be taught ?

You see, with asd people methods of teaching devised by non asd people might not work, as the way the asd person thinks could be very different from what one would think as is normal. If you are of a mind to help an asd person in these very important, but confusing areas, you might be better off consulting an asd related forum, as there are people there with the same problem, it is quite common. Although here there is also good minds who can point you in a useful direction.

But beware, what seems obvious to you, might be something very different for an asd of aspie person.

Edited to add, as to the question what an asd person might like to have been taught about the bedroom bit, you have to remember, the past may not be like it is now, sex and all that stuff might well have been one of those things one got self educated in, as parents, schools or whatever did not get involved.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 10/26/2009 2:13:11 PM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to NovelApproach)

Post #: 2

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/26/2009 2:36:44 PM

NovelApproach

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I should add - my friend has very good communication skills and can almost always pick up and correctly interpret nonverbal cues. The real issue here is learning what kinds of behaviors are acceptable/expected in situations he hasn't been trained for. We're both asking around on ASD forums, but we're exploring as many different places as we can, and find that these discussions are helpful for more people than just ourselves. We also think that asking here specifically may be useful, because he has a strong interest in Kink, which comes with its own issues that other places might not be willing to explore or even accept.

As for the bedroom skills - in my experience, most guys talk shop with each other, and say stuff - mostly utter bullshit - about what works/doesn't work in bed. They also watch porn and think that this is how sex is supposed to be. It's tiring for us gals sometimes, and CB's ASD may mean that he will spend more time fumbling around learning to do it "right" than most - a notion that worries him greatly. I figure it wouldn't kill him to learn some general stuff like "a pointed tongue looks great on camera, but is shitty for actual cunnilingus."

_____________________________

Don't talk at me about the joystick and buttons... tell me about the game.

Sure, I'll Dungeon Master for you. Do you like Eberron? ...oh. That kind of dungeon.

Is it just me or do Theatre Majors make excellent play partners?

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 3

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/26/2009 7:01:07 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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Aah, I was speaking from my own experience, the subtleties of speech I miss, along with a great many non verbal signals. Everyone I have had the pleasure to know, has learned, with me, one has got to be blatant, else I just don't get it.

Yeah, I have suffered the wtf to do with the closeness bit, and the bedroom bit, but I have since learned whom I am with, well, it depends on each person, and how we get along. Those that know me, know about me, but I do not see it as a hindrance anymore, I usually get, the, ''you are unusual '', but it works. I also aware of differences I have been told, put an awful lot of effort into what I do, as if it was the last day on earth, my aim is to please as best I can.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to NovelApproach)

Post #: 4

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 4:25:18 AM

DesFIP

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From: Apple County NY
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http://www.topdatingtips.com/flirting.htm
Has worthwhile list of appropriate body language for flirting, like mirroring her posture.

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RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 5:23:33 AM

barelynangel

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While i think what you are doing is great -- be careful you don't completely knock the guys point of view - which it sounds like you are doing especially with regard to the bedroom. He is after all a guy, and has a right to that point of view and that perception. I just saw your comment on

quote:

As for the bedroom skills - in my experience, most guys talk shop with each other, and say stuff - mostly utter bullshit - about what works/doesn't work in bed. They also watch porn and think that this is how sex is supposed to be. It's tiring for us gals sometimes

And the way its worded gives me the impression you see him as a doll you are dressing from YOUR point of view instead of HIS as a Man. I would say that for this concept you are doing -- i would find a guy to also teach him and that way you have BOTH points of views. To me, you would be doing him a disservice teaching him only about a woman's point of view because you are leaving out the point of view and perception he actually lives within -- a Mans. What about him, his needs, likes, desires etc which may in fact be concepts MEN do because its what their natural point of view is. You as a woman cannot teach him that.

Be careful your tendancies to be a Domme doesn't come into play here and you inadvertantly try and create a submissive man, that would be taking unfair advantage of him.

Your posts just seem like you are completely disregarding him being a Man and the point of view and perception of Men.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 6

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 5:44:32 AM

NovelApproach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
And the way its worded gives me the impression you see him as a doll you are dressing from YOUR point of view instead of HIS as a Man. I would say that for this concept you are doing -- i would find a guy to also teach him and that way you have BOTH points of views. To me, you would be doing him a disservice teaching him only about a woman's point of view because you are leaving out the point of view and perception he actually lives within -- a Mans. What about him, his needs, likes, desires etc which may in fact be concepts MEN do because its what their natural point of view is. You as a woman cannot teach him that.

Be careful your tendancies to be a Domme doesn't come into play here and you inadvertantly try and create a submissive man, that would be taking unfair advantage of him.

Your posts just seem like you are completely disregarding him being a Man and the point of view and perception of Men.

angel

To be fair, I don't think I need to teach him "his point of view as a man." He knows his own mind and body quite well, and I'm quite sure he can be trusted to figure out what feels good for him without any help. The harder part is discovering what might feel good for a partner - especially given that he says his experience of sex thus far comes from stuff he's heard other guys say (which he's repeated to me and we both think is shit) and stuff from porn that he knows is unrealistic, but he's not sure which parts are just for show and which are closer to reality.

I don't think there's any danger of my Dominant orientation affecting him - we realized a long time ago that he is not a Submissive (though he wants to experience a scene or two, just to see what its like). He is interested in Kink, but he's more interesting in "playing rough" than power exchange. I thank you for the reminder though - I do intend to keep this in mind.

_____________________________

Don't talk at me about the joystick and buttons... tell me about the game.

Sure, I'll Dungeon Master for you. Do you like Eberron? ...oh. That kind of dungeon.

Is it just me or do Theatre Majors make excellent play partners?

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 7

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 5:46:42 AM

NovelApproach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

http://www.topdatingtips.com/flirting.htm
Has worthwhile list of appropriate body language for flirting, like mirroring her posture.

Thanks for that - it's a great link. We're working on mirroring, but some of this other stuff hadn't crossed my mind yet.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 8

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 5:57:44 AM

Aneirin

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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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I wonder if this society we live in, an educator society, everything we know, we expect to be taught and everything someone knows they have received tuition. If this is the case, then it denies the natural human.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to NovelApproach)

Post #: 9

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 6:06:42 AM

NovelApproach

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Joined: 3/25/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I wonder if this society we live in, an educator society, everything we know, we expect to be taught and everything someone knows they have received tuition. If this is the case, then it denies the natural human.

An interesting question.

It depends on what you consider "teaching" and "tutelage" to mean. If I watch someone else do something, but they don't explain any of it to me or expressly show it to me, and I learn how to do what they are doing, have they taught me this skill? I've certainly learned it from them. If someone's written a book about something and I read the book and learn something from it, has that author taught me, or have I taught myself? Knowledge has to come from somewhere, and some things can only be learned through observation and mimicry of other human beings.

_____________________________

Don't talk at me about the joystick and buttons... tell me about the game.

Sure, I'll Dungeon Master for you. Do you like Eberron? ...oh. That kind of dungeon.

Is it just me or do Theatre Majors make excellent play partners?

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 10

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 6:18:10 AM

lusciouslips19

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Joined: 9/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

While i think what you are doing is great -- be careful you don't completely knock the guys point of view - which it sounds like you are doing especially with regard to the bedroom. He is after all a guy, and has a right to that point of view and that perception. I just saw your comment on

quote:

As for the bedroom skills - in my experience, most guys talk shop with each other, and say stuff - mostly utter bullshit - about what works/doesn't work in bed. They also watch porn and think that this is how sex is supposed to be. It's tiring for us gals sometimes

And the way its worded gives me the impression you see him as a doll you are dressing from YOUR point of view instead of HIS as a Man. I would say that for this concept you are doing -- i would find a guy to also teach him and that way you have BOTH points of views. To me, you would be doing him a disservice teaching him only about a woman's point of view because you are leaving out the point of view and perception he actually lives within -- a Mans. What about him, his needs, likes, desires etc which may in fact be concepts MEN do because its what their natural point of view is. You as a woman cannot teach him that.

Be careful your tendancies to be a Domme doesn't come into play here and you inadvertantly try and create a submissive man, that would be taking unfair advantage of him.

Your posts just seem like you are completely disregarding him being a Man and the point of view and perception of Men.

angel

I did not get that impression at all from the wording. I think your impression has more to do with how you see the world negatively than her actual intention.

As a mother of an Aspie I think the O.P. is sweet in her wanting to help and most Aspies would welcome her help. Whether you can teach this remains to be seen. Although perhaps someone will be charmed by the Aspies niavete and intellect and honesty. There is an independent film out called "Adam". You should see it. Its a realistic look at an Aspies muddling through romance.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 10/27/2009 6:19:09 AM >

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Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

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RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 6:27:24 AM

lusciouslips19

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Well O.P. I just consulted an expert for you. Hes sitting right over there(points). I asked him(he'll be 11 in december). if he wanted to learn about sex stuff and how to meet girls, whos point of view would he want? He said, "I would want the girls point of view cause they know themselves."

Its so obvious and black and white. Alot of men would love to be a fly on the wall for the female POV. And really, a man doesnt have to be Aspie to be completely clueless.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 12

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 7:04:59 AM

barelynangel

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WTF, luciouslips, you say IIIII see the world negatively? chuckles, perhaps you are simply TOO sensitive and need to go back and reread what i wrote -- hell you even quoted it. Yeah bitch that i am told her what she was doing is great but indicated she may want to have BOTH perceptions and point of view and concepts such as ALSO. I am such a bitch negativity seer to think the guy could benefit from same.

Perhaps you simply are too sensitive. From what the OP replied it seems she saw where i could get what i said because she explained in more detail HIS views, knowledge and understanding of himself a little more. BTW in any gender teaching role, i usually advise people get BOTH perceptions and points of views of the genders - so while YOU are focused on the ASPIE concept, i was simply focused on a woman teaching a man something that may leave out some important perceptions and points of view he may benefit from. Such the bitch and seeing the world negatively woman that i am.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 10/27/2009 7:11:19 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

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RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 7:21:32 AM

lusciouslips19

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Joined: 9/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

WTF, luciouslips, you say IIIII see the world negatively? chuckles, perhaps you are simply TOO sensitive and need to go back and reread what i wrote -- hell you even quoted it. Yeah bitch that i am told her what she was doing is great but indicated she may want to have BOTH perceptions and point of view and concepts such as ALSO. I am such a bitch negativity seer to think the guy could benefit from same.

Perhaps you simply are too sensitive. From what the OP replied it seems she saw where i could get what i said because she explained in more detail HIS views, knowledge and understanding of himself a little more. BTW in any gender teaching role, i usually advise people get BOTH perceptions and points of views of the genders - so while YOU are focused on the ASPIE concept, i was simply focused on a woman teaching a man something that may leave out some important perceptions and points of view he may benefit from. Such the bitch and seeing the world negatively woman that i am.

angel

"And the way its worded gives me the impression you see him as a doll you are dressing from YOUR point of view instead of HIS as a Man. "

When you tell the O.P. That YOU think she sees him as a doll. That is a negative perception placed on the O.P by YOU.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 10/27/2009 7:22:53 AM >

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 14

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 8:24:43 AM

barelynangel

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Hell when i read your post i didn't remotely even THINK of that phrase as what has your tail in a twist, i read my post and reread it going what the fuck is she talking about and still didn't come up with THAT phrase as being your focus.

it was the best way i could see to describe what i saw as a possibility happening and it does even with the best of intentions in a blunt way and yes, my concern wasn't for patting HER on the back which i did when i said in the first sentence GREAT idea but for HIM. Shoot me, i see the world negatively because i was concerned with a concept that EASILY happens when people (even with the best of intentions) tend to help each other and wanted her to see what i was saying bluntly so she can be sure NOT to do such in her desire to help him. Her posts to me while she wants to help, seemed a little to focused on what SHE thinks of what Men do and HER opinion. While that's good, to me, its a biased concept. She cleared this up a little more in her response to my post.

I have seen people who attempt to help people begin to see the person as a canvas for them to portray THEIR desires onto and not an unbiased concept thereby seeing the SUBJECT so to speak as a doll they dress up. It HAPPENS with parents, it happens with therapists, it happens with people trying to help people because its NOT EASY to separate yourself from YOUR desires of what you want in people and a unbiased concept of generalizing which is what the OP will need to do.

Its really ironic you accused ME of seeing the world negatively.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 10/27/2009 8:46:18 AM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 15

RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 11:20:30 AM

NovelApproach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Hell when i read your post i didn't remotely even THINK of that phrase as what has your tail in a twist, i read my post and reread it going what the fuck is she talking about and still didn't come up with THAT phrase as being your focus.

it was the best way i could see to describe what i saw as a possibility happening and it does even with the best of intentions in a blunt way and yes, my concern wasn't for patting HER on the back which i did when i said in the first sentence GREAT idea but for HIM. Shoot me, i see the world negatively because i was concerned with a concept that EASILY happens when people (even with the best of intentions) tend to help each other and wanted her to see what i was saying bluntly so she can be sure NOT to do such in her desire to help him. Her posts to me while she wants to help, seemed a little to focused on what SHE thinks of what Men do and HER opinion. While that's good, to me, its a biased concept. She cleared this up a little more in her response to my post.

I have seen people who attempt to help people begin to see the person as a canvas for them to portray THEIR desires onto and not an unbiased concept thereby seeing the SUBJECT so to speak as a doll they dress up. It HAPPENS with parents, it happens with therapists, it happens with people trying to help people because its NOT EASY to separate yourself from YOUR desires of what you want in people and a unbiased concept of generalizing which is what the OP will need to do.

Its really ironic you accused ME of seeing the world negatively.

angel

To be honest, I was pretty offended by your wording in your first post to me, but I felt that the question you raised was worth addressing regardless. I have never met an adult with an Autism Spectrum Disorder who did not know their own mind and body inside and out. They may have had difficulty expressing what they knew, but they did know. CB is a particularly articulate man, who understands that his greatest setback is in understanding what's going on in other people's heads (which is the very definition of Asperger's) and has asked me for my opinion as a woman who has had sex with both other women and with men. CB is also a man with a very strong personality, and the idea of him as anyone's "doll" is laughable and insulting.

I feel that your concerns are valid, but you've underestimated both of us. You weren't to know this, but in my training as a psychologist, my instructors placed heavy emphasis on what we call "client-centered care." The idea is that counseling and therapy should revolve around not what the practitioner thinks is appropriate, but what the client wants to achieve for themselves. This is and has always been the core of my philosophy. In the course of our work together, I will be teaching him about things I personally find distasteful, because they interest him. I will definitely explain why *I* dislike them, but will also take the time to explain why other people might enjoy them and how he can engage in them safely.

< Message edited by NovelApproach -- 10/27/2009 11:21:09 AM >

(in reply to barelynangel)

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RE: Question - Autistic/Aspergers Adults and Parents of... - 10/27/2009 11:49:11 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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My words were blunt as to what i was trying to get across, i can't apologize for them because my concern wasn't for you but for him - yes a guy i don't know lol go figure. I responded based on all the information i had and the way things were worded. You didn't necessarily portray him as what you describe in your recent post. All in all, you saw what my concerns were and addressed them more indepth with each post. I am glad i posted what i did, for it has clarified some things and i appreciate your responses.

quote:

The idea is that counseling and therapy should revolve around not what the practitioner thinks is appropriate, but what the client wants to achieve for themselves.

THIS is what i was trying to get at in my post. As you posted more i see that now, but when i saw what you stated in the part i quoted, i didn't see this theory coming across. All in all, that's discussion for ya.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to NovelApproach)

Post #: 17

RE: Question - Adults with ASD and Parents of Special N... - 10/30/2009 7:17:32 PM

Acer49

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Joined: 8/7/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NovelApproach

Didn't want to derail the main thread so I thought I'd ask here.

First, a little background - a very close friend of mine IRL has a very high-functioning form of Asperger's. He functions really well on a day to day basis and therapy has given him almost all the skills he needs to have normal social interactions with other people. The one area he's lacking in is romance and sexual situations. I've agreed, as someone with a background in therapy, to teach him these skills. The plan so far is to teach simple, step-by-step, flowchart-ish methods for flirting and recognizing interest, determining lack of interest, propositioning a partner, etc, as well as basic bedroom techniques.

So. The question is: for those of you on the Autistic Spectrum and/or parenting young adults on the Spectrum, what do you wish could be or had been expressly taught in regards to relationships and sex? Things that HAVE been expressly taught and proved useful would be great too.

*Edited for spelling

Teaching one how to interact with th opposite sex is one thing, but teaching a teenager about having sex, I am not so sure about that. I do not know what your qualifications are in this area, do you have a degree and special training, relating to individuals with asperger syndrom? If you wish to teach him something of value, teach him how to masturbate. it is not wise impose your moral opinions on an other. Some do consider pre marital sex unacceptible behavior. Flow chart? step by step instructions? sounds like you are putting together a tinker toy.

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
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(in reply to NovelApproach)

Post #: 18

RE: Question - Adults with ASD and Parents of Special N... - 10/31/2009 4:08:30 AM

NovelApproach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49

Teaching one how to interact with th opposite sex is one thing, but teaching a teenager about having sex, I am not so sure about that. I do not know what your qualifications are in this area, do you have a degree and special training, relating to individuals with asperger syndrom?

He's not a teenager, I just wanted the input of teens/parents of teens as well as the input of adults. I do in fact have a degree in Psychology, with a special focus on Developmental Psychology and Pervasive Developmental Disorders, and am in the progress of earning a Master's degree in Education.

quote:

If you wish to teach him something of value, teach him how to masturbate. it is not wise impose your moral opinions on an other. Some do consider pre marital sex unacceptible behavior.

He knows how to masturbate. He also knows his own mind and desires, and those desires include someday pursuing a romantic, sexual relationship with another adult - something he is fully capable of doing once he has the confidence he needs to avoid having panic attacks. Some people consider sex outside of marriage to be a perfectly normal and healthy activity if all parties are properly informed and willing.

quote:

Flow chart? step by step instructions? sounds like you are putting together a tinker toy.

Those terms are simplifications, but this sort of method is necessary for people with ASD's. The peculiarities of these types of disorders prevent the natural learning of certain social skills, and so they must be taught in an explicit, logical, concrete manner.

_____________________________

Don't talk at me about the joystick and buttons... tell me about the game.

Sure, I'll Dungeon Master for you. Do you like Eberron? ...oh. That kind of dungeon.

Is it just me or do Theatre Majors make excellent play partners?

(in reply to Acer49)

Post #: 19

RE: Question - Adults with ASD and Parents of Special N... - 11/6/2009 4:23:45 AM

NovelApproach

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An update, in case anyone was interested.

CB is proving to be a natural at almost everything I show him. He picked up posture-mirroring without any difficulty, reacts very quickly and appropriately to body language indicating "no," and can identify flirting behavior in people we've observed in public. He is a gentle and attentive lover. He's good with his tongue, and with practice, he'll be an excellent kisser. We've discovered he has a strong enforced eye-contact fetish - given the opportunity to top, he will demand to be looked in the eye, and his gaze is almost too intense for me. He thinks its funny "that the Aspie can maintain eye-contact longer than the NT."

One major difficulty we've run into - while being intimate, CB becomes hyper-focused on his partner's pleasure and reactions, and loses touch with his own body. He has difficulty reacting to what he is experiencing, sometimes to the point of losing his erection while being stimulated. I suspect he may also be feeling some anxiety he isn't willing to admit. Anyone out there familiar with this situation and willing to share some advice?

_____________________________

Don't talk at me about the joystick and buttons... tell me about the game.

Sure, I'll Dungeon Master for you. Do you like Eberron? ...oh. That kind of dungeon.

Is it just me or do Theatre Majors make excellent play partners?

(in reply to NovelApproach)

Post #: 20

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