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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:01:05 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

i think the observers (they cheered??!!??) should be charged as well.

I would be very surprised if they weren't.

I was going to add something to the effect of "this sort of thing has always gone on, only the technology (ie the phones) changes", but I see DesFIP got in ahead of me.

The Hindley & Brady, for example, taped their victims while assaulting and then killing them.

Doesn't make it any less horrific, mind.

(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 21

RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:01:54 AM

tazzygirl

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Then by all means lets pat them on the head and forgive all.

This wasnt hesitation, this was a complete failure to act among a group mentality that included... thank god it wasnt me... and... she got what she has coming for ____. yes, poor kids who had to watch.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:06:53 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
is it violence or justice?

It isn't justice it is the desire for vengeance and usually it's those that have virtually no stake in the suffering which are wanting to see such harsh punishment. So ask yourself: if you have not suffered as the result of an action what possible reason would you have for wanting to see someone suffer in the same way as the original victim? In which way would you really be distinguishing yourself from those others that got a cheap form of entertainment from seeing such suffering the first time? (Being guilty of a crime is that reason enough? A good justification alone for the blood lust in others?) This issue goes to the heart of why we condone or don’t condone the death penalty. This view of mine that justice should be dispensed in a dispassionate way is getting so rare.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/1/2009 10:08:07 AM >

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:11:07 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
Those who watched and did nothing should be drugged and tossed into that cage for a 2 hour ordeal like that poor girl endured.

Which raises the question as to why should anyone differentiate between your lust for violence and theirs?

is it violence or justice?

quote:

It isn't justice it is the desire for vengeance and usually it's those that have virtually no stake in the suffering which are wanting to see such harsh punishment.

Sorry...i have to disagree with you there. I do not want to see the observers suffer the same fate as the victim. However...if the victim were my daughter...i would want every ounce of vengeance available.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:16:00 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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This statement of yours only demonstrates why victims shouldn't be getting a say in the punishment as yes human beings (the majority of them) want vengeance and that can go around in circles for years which is what the justice system was created to end. Tit for tat disputes.

The problem the legal system has always faced is trying to convince victims of crimes the punishment was enough but realistically for some crimes when will the victim ever feel the punishment was enough short of the state committing the same crimes against the guilty? That can’t happen.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/1/2009 10:24:05 AM >

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:21:42 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

This statement of yours only demonstrates why victims shouldn't be getting a say in the punishment

luckily the law disagrees with you. Victim Impact Statements can pack a punch.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 10:31:56 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly
luckily the law disagrees with you. Victim Impact Statements can pack a punch.

Victims don't decide the punishment, this is the main point.

Personally I feel victim impact statements should not be needed to convince a judge to pass a harsh verdict if a person has been found guilty of a crime by a jury. In terms of consistent sentencing victim impact statements don't help especially considering some victims aren't so willing to relive events and describe the crimes in such details as others. You are then saying those with the best ability to recount the crime and win over hearts gets to see the perpetrator of their crime get sent down for longer than that of a victim of a similar crime.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 11:29:16 AM

Lashra

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Unfortunately gang rape has been going on since the beginning of time. Will it stop anytime soon? No it won't. Did the kids watching it take place think it was cool and macho? Maybe, how about the participants? Most likely. On the internet you can find lots of gang rape sites and books featuring gang rape or women being "forced" into doing horrible things and it's percieved as "cool" or "macho". These kids and the people watching have no respect for women, human life or anything, the only thing that they do know is how to be barbaric.

If they are gulity, I frankly do not care if they get the death penalty or life imprisonment, in fact the victim should decide. I won't call them animals because animals treat each other much better.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 11:33:40 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

Sorry...i have to disagree with you there. I do not want to see the observers suffer the same fate as the victim. However...if the victim were my daughter...i would want every ounce of vengeance available.

Which is why governments, not individuals, are the ones who determine society's response. Individuals are too involved, angry, and vengeful to be allowed to act on their own.

Not saying I wouldn’t want the same thing if it was a member of my family, just that I’d be equally wrong too.

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Post #: 29

RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 11:53:10 AM

CalifChick

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tazzy, I'm not saying it's right; I'm just saying it's not new. There are lots of studies on group-think, mob mentality and failure to act. I wish it didn't exist, but it does.

When I was in high school, I saw something happen to a girl that was about to become very humiliating (it was not assault or rape or anything like that), and I failed to act. I failed to do everything in my power to prevent her humilation and embarrassment, and I have never forgotten it. I vowed then to refuse to hesitate in the future if I saw something that wasn't right. I've tried my best to keep that vow.

Cali

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 12:00:59 PM

Notsweet

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Lashra, are you saying that porn made these kids desensitized to an actual rape? To actual brutalization?

I'm thinking it's more teachers who whine that the media is only interested in bad things rather than "good kids," parents who pay little or no attention to the disrespect and callousness of what their precious darlings are doing, and school boards who, rather than make a judgment, make blanket rules and go after a Boy Scout with an axe locked in his trunk rather than the day to day sense of false entitlement and selfishness that we've given these precious ones since the day they were born. I'm thinking it's judges who are more deeply concerned with their political careers than in punishing offenders. I'm thinking it's the mentality of these putrid little fucks who think it's all about what keeps them entertained rather than any sense of right and wrong--because they've been taught that right and wrong is a matter of whether or not you like it or not. The same vermin who watched this, cheered and took little photo shoots scream bloody murder whenever they think their tiny sensibilities have been compromised--when corrected, it's because the authority is "racist," or "not fair," or "the teacher doesn't like me." And the parents come up and scream bloody murder in their defense.

As to whether it's vengeance or justice--justice is borne of vengeance. Do wrong, be punished. If people were not hurt, or damaged, then there would be no reason for punishment. And the reason "those with no stake in the suffering" raise hell is because when these angelic little scumbags get loose, you might be next.

The judge shouldn't need a victim impact statement. But it gives the victim the ability to state their case, to feel as though all the facts are in. And that is empowering. Just because all don't want to do it doesn't mean you take it away from those who do. Why not make it clear what the effect of the crime has been?

And by the way--the Genovese murder was not cheered on, and it turns out that most people thought everyone else had called the police, as Pahunkboy alluded to.

Justice is borne of the need for vengeance. How this becomes "circles" is beyond me.

< Message edited by Notsweet -- 11/1/2009 12:11:33 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's y... - 11/1/2009 12:01:12 PM

barelynangel

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I didn't post this story because it was NEW concept, i posted it because of the fact that a dozen kids at a high school homecoming dance stood around watching it when FOUR cops were right in side for over 2 hours. The fact that gang rapes occur all the times to me doesn't negate the issue of what happened here.

Maybe if people stopped accepting it with the mentality of oh well it happens all the time, maybe next time a 15 year old girl will not be brutally gang raped and beaten for two hours at her homecoming dance. I guess with the mentality of shrug its mob mentality being so accepted, no wonder the kids watching didn't see anything wrong with it.

Personally, i think any and all of these student should be expelled, even if the law can't touch them. I mean hell they are expelling kids for taking eating utensils to school.

you know what's funny, is i used the title as an attention getter concept, i seriously wasn't expecting to see the same mentality in the responses here. I guess i am still shockable by people.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/1/2009 12:03:17 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's y... - 11/1/2009 12:07:37 PM

CalifChick

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I was responding to someone saying this was the age of desensitization. I was merely pointing out that you cannot realistically blame this on "the age of desensitization" when the phenomena has been around forever. That's all I was saying. I never said it was acceptable.

As far as the title... I guess I should be equally shocked that anyone would read my response as a condoning of it. I give up.

Cali

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 12:15:09 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

Thanks OP for making my fucking day :-)

This report does not make me happy to say the least. But I am not going to go off and rant, I have more control than that. (I think)

You know where this starts ? I do. I hadf to tell some friends not to bring those kids around when we party, it's not so much that substance that some people smoke, but also the fact that there are seven people in the room, with cigarettes, cigars, whatever, not to mention that some might be drunk. We are talking very young here.

This is where it starts. They load up hundreds of dollars worth of toys and what does the kid want to play with ? An empty beer case. Shit, I could pick garbage and provide loads of fun.

My point is that the young are distracted from life, and lacking any form of human compassion, and therefore sub human. They can program your video recorder, cheat the cable company and triple the capacity of your ipod, But if you suffer an aneurism break right in front of them with blood gushing out your eye sockets they will say "Awesome dude, can you do it again ?".

I am a very harsh Man when it comes to my enemies, on the occasions when I have enemies. I currently don't, and this girl was certainly not one of them. Even though I think the trauma of rape is a bit overblown, it is still a heinous crime. What I mean by overblown is compare it to haveing someone set you on fire, or shoot you with a big enough hand cannon that it takes one of your arms or legs off. Or in a case long ago where the rapist blinded the victim so she could not ID him in court. More recently one rapist got out by mistake and calmly went over to the victim's house and removed her face.

Where I differ from these soulless creatures of today is that even though I can read or hear aboiut this shit and just say "That must really suck" it doesn't mean I do not care. They do not care about anything, and that comes from not caring about themselves.

Go ahead and shiled your kids from porn, restrict their internet, don't cuss in front of them, go right ahead, but if I may make a suggection......

Don't let them watch the TV news.

Do something different or one day they will be on the street and say to their buddy "Dude, I gotta piss, keep shooting the video of that guy burning to death for a minute K ?". Won't even piss on the guy, it would wreck the footage. And they have no conception of what footage is.

T

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RE: eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's y... - 11/1/2009 12:17:42 PM

Lockit

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Victims not being able to decide the punishment has provided for short sentences and such so the criminal can get out and do it again, which most do. We should be angry about rape! Unless someone knows first hand what it is like to suffer rape... they cannot know the damage done and a few years in a think tank isn't going to cure a problem that typically never is cured. I am all for victims deciding what happens because I bet there would be fewer getting out and subjecting someone else to it all again.

But as for victim statments... sometimes they are heard. I told the court in my statement who I thought was more invovled and deserved more punishment and who I felt was going along with the crowd and just didn't want to be there. I asked for certain things. The court did exactly what I asked for with each person. I believe my statement proved a great deal and covered things that might not have been allowed in the court hearing. I got lucky that the court listened.

Victims need to be heard and listened to even if they are angry. Anyone who wouldn't be angry about rape... has something vital missing in them. Angry doesn't always mean unreasonable. It can mean very honest and clear in thought by knowing just what the victimizer has done and acting accordingly. Some may not... but then the court does have a say don't they? All things should be considered. A lifetime of damage from a group rape if the person cannot get over it so well compared to five-ten years in jail... not compairable.

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RE: eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Cool where's y... - 11/1/2009 1:23:18 PM

Termyn8or

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"We should be angry about rape!"

I disagree. It is horrible, and the perps are scumbags who will probably kill each other in a drug deal in a few short years. We should not focus on anger, but rather a solution.

Sadness, which is also a choice might be more appropriate, at least it does not cloud one's mental capacity. Having the choice to actually feel anger is crucial to my survival, and this is not something I've known for a long time. I was strong. When I punched a wall it did not just scare people, my fist came out the other side. Once about a 14" square of 5/8 firewall sheetrock went flying across the room and slid about halfway under the microwave which was sitting on top of the fridge.

I was taught to not get mad, to get even, and it was only a couple of years ago that I realized what it really meant.

So in my cool, calm and collected state, what do we do ? These kids might never become adults, but we have universal sufferage here and one day they will vote and do things of major impact, or consequence. We will be most likely be too old to do anything about it. There used to be talk of elder abuse, want my slant on it ?

If you raise kids who will abuse you, you fucked up somewhere. Likewise if you raised kids who would do what was reported in the OP, similarly you fucked up somewhere. But if you did, WHY ? Something was wrong with you I guess. Wouldn't that be a reasonable assumption ? OK so you are that way, WHY. So the blame might be on your Parents. But if they got that way, WHY ? OK now it's the Grandparents. This can go on all the fucking way back to Adam and Eve.

So the main question is WHY ? Could it be the case of "Spare the rod and spoil the child" ? Well, IIRC the Bible did not say to BEAT the child with the rod. The rod could be used to poiunt out things in the process of teaching. Sure it could come in handy if the bitches get out of line, but was that the intended purpose, or did we just read that into it ?

We will see more of this as long as Parents abdicate their responsibility to the TV and media. Certain components of life cannot be substituted. And I know it is not new. In another thread I mentioned someone who was molested at age two, who the fuck does something like that ? She is over thirty now, so obviously it is not new. But the person who did it, WHY ? Again we basically could follow the trail all the way back to Adam and Eve. But there comes a time in life that people must get over it, they must move on. Either that or we will have a world of cellphones and gang rapists.

Do as thou wilt, but ye shall reap what ye sow.

T

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 1:23:41 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

They can program your video recorder, cheat the cable company and triple the capacity of your ipod, But if you suffer an aneurism break right in front of them with blood gushing out your eye sockets they will say "Awesome dude, can you do it again ?"

Are you sure? VCRs are dead tech, like the walkman. I doubt that you'll find any fifteen year olds who are au fait with them now.

I don't even want to get started on your other point that all of the young are lacking in compassion and so are completely subhuman. That's an awful lot of people you're tarring with the same brush there.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 1:31:51 PM

Elipsis

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As DesFIP stated, this is nothing new.

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 1:39:28 PM

Lockit

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I will stick with... rape should make people angry. Anger doesn't mean it is the only emotion and that people lose sight of all else. Anger can be a good emotion and handled correctly.

Anger is what brought about mothers against drunk drivers and two very determined women set out to change things. I spoke to one early on and she told me I had the right idea in battling domestic abuse and the changes needed there. Anger can be useful. Anger... pain... they motivate people to make changes, to bring about new ways of handling things and new laws. I wouldn't take the anger aspect out of anything unless the anger blinded people and was used in a wrong way.

People don't hear victims often times. They might hear about something... but how many hold their hand, walk with them through the crisis and are there standing with them at the end when life goes on and they must deal with it? We hear what is on a program or in the news.... but who walks with them? I would listen to the anger and pain of those that have walked it as victim or helper to the victim because they know the real deal and what the crime has produced in a life and in society. They need to be heard and things need to be changed. Sexual crimes against women need to have more serious ramifications. Same with some other crimes against the vulnerable.

(The reasons for the criminal mind are many... it all cannot be blamed on parents.)

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RE: Kids say -- eh its just a gang rape, no biggie. Co... - 11/1/2009 1:44:59 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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I'm with ya there Lockit. Anger can be a great motivation for change It isn't at all the same as rage.

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