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those silly Italians judges! - 11/4/2009 5:35:28 PM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Well, theyve really gone and done it now havent they?

An Italian court today sentenced a whole bunch of former CIA operatives to 8 years in prison for the kidnapping by way of "extraordinary rendition" of an Egyptian who was taken from Italy for "special interrogation techniques".

Sadly, or rather happily, depending on point of view, the trial and sentencing took place in absentia and the Italian government is refusing to seek extradition of those responsible. Personally I think happily, because as guilty as they may have been proven to be, I dont think the operatives should be the ones facing the music.

E

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/4/2009 5:45:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Interestingly enough, 3 of their own were found not guilty because the italian government classified their part in the whole event.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/4/2009 6:32:52 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/4/2009 6:34:10 PM   
tazzygirl


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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/4/2009 7:10:11 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.


The Vatican is its OWN country.  2 miles across or something.  They do not govern Italy. 

I guess that I fail to understand your point.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/4/2009 7:31:11 PM   
AnimusRex


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Dateline- Rome- December 5, 2009
Teams of Italian commandos surrounded the houses of Americans convicted of kidnapping, and in a daring pre-dawn raid, forcibly abducted the 18 men, bundled them onto a private charter jet, and flew them to Rome in a reverse version of "extraordinary rendition".

The men were brought into Italian court this morning, hooded, shackled, and wearing orange jumpsuits to face sentencing for their crimes.

Noted a gov't spokesman for Prime Minister Berlusconi: "These are truly the worst of the worst, and all Europe is safer today because of their capture. Bravissimo to a job well done by our brave security forces!"

A member of the Democratic Party was not willing to endorse the idea of bringing terrorists onto homeland soil, however. "Why couldn't we have just launched drone missiles into Manhattan and Virginia and just blow up the neighborhoods where these terrorists are being harbored?" asked one.

However, he was immediately shouted down, and the consensus was that shooting random drone missiles into civilian neighborhoods would be an outrageous act of terrorism in and of itself.




A man can dream, can't he?

< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 11/4/2009 7:32:10 PM >

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 7:19:48 AM   
UncleNasty


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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 7:35:11 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Personally I think happily, because as guilty as they may have been proven to be, I dont think the operatives should be the ones facing the music.

From my point of view we should never excuse people that were just following orders, taken to mean each individual much ask themselves if the thing they are being asked to do is fair and just. People aren’t robots and should stop blaming people above them in the command chain for the things they agree to do.

I hear one of the people are suing the state department because it failed to ensure her diplomatic immunity. I've never liked the idea of diplomatic immunity this idea that people can commit crimes in a country but escape prosecution because they are acting as diplomats and so external to the laws of that country.

Having said all this nothing will happen but the people involved are obviously already being punished in-lieu of official sentencing because they can't travel anywhere without fear of being extradited. Seems like a fair sentence in itself if you abuse the hospitality of a country to commit crimes.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 11/5/2009 7:38:52 AM >

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 7:41:01 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.


The Vatican is its OWN country.  2 miles across or something.  They do not govern Italy. 

I guess that I fail to understand your point.



The Vatican is complicit in the wars going on-  one of them being the war on terror.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 8:18:13 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.


The Vatican is its OWN country.  2 miles across or something.  They do not govern Italy. 

I guess that I fail to understand your point.



The Vatican is complicit in the wars going on-  one of them being the war on terror.



Have you ever looked into the 30 years war?  You might want to.  Those kinds of actions tend to backfire. 

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 10:08:15 AM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.


?

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 10:27:37 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.


?



Apparently he wants to invade an ally and seize their assets. 

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 11:10:30 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Well that also makes one wonder about the Vatican's bank and cannon law and why civil law can not attach those assets.


The Vatican is its OWN country.  2 miles across or something.  They do not govern Italy. 

I guess that I fail to understand your point.



The Vatican is complicit in the wars going on-  one of them being the war on terror.


It's news to me that the Swiss Guard of Vatican city are doing anything in Afghanistan or Iraq.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 11:24:17 AM   
Raiikun


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Status: offline 		Makes me glad to not live in Italy...can they really find you guilty and sentence you without the right to face your accuser?  And people are cheering this on?

Wow.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 11:29:32 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Makes me glad to not live in Italy...can they really find you guilty and sentence you without the right to face your accuser?  And people are cheering this on?

Wow.


Irony of ironies. Here we have a poster moaning about the rights to a fair trial, for a bunch of guys guilty of kidnapping people off the street and sending them for torture. It would be laughable if it wasnt so pathetic.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 11:30:59 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Trial in absentia is a commonly used legal device for dealing with people who are hiding in another country when their case comes before the beak, you'll find.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 11:32:11 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		And what Politesub said, obviously.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 12:17:24 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Irony of ironies. Here we have a poster moaning about the rights to a fair trial, for a bunch of guys guilty of kidnapping people off the street and sending them for torture. It would be laughable if it wasnt so pathetic.


Two wrongs don’t make a right. How can they be certain they are convicting the right people if the accused don’t have the right to confront their accusers and the evidence against them? You’ve already proclaimed them guilty but how do you really know that they are? Or is merely the suspicion that someone has commited a heinous crimes sufficient to violate their rights? If you don’t respect the rights of others, on what basis do you assert your own rights?


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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 12:18:28 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Trial in absentia is a commonly used legal device for dealing with people who are hiding in another country when their case comes before the beak, you'll find.


Yes it is but that doesn't make it right.

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RE: those silly Italians judges! - 11/5/2009 12:43:50 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		It was not that long ago some American flew low and cut off a condola sending 6 to their deaths.    It was against the rules but happened all the time.

So maybe they do think they are sovereign.   But that thought is mute when you factor in the Lisbon treaty and the global carbon tax at copanhagan next month.

So the judges outburst is merely window dressing. A show.

As to the Vatican they could have done more to stop the wars in the mid east.  Tho most of churches have been pretty quiet about that.   Thou shall not kill.   hmmm.    So yes- teh Vatican with all of its wealth and influence is woefully silent toward a bunch of dead arabs... all for a phony war, based on fake evidence of WMDs.  Thou shall not lie.
So it does appear laws apply to some but not to others.

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