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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/8/2009 6:40:17 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK--while I disagree with his solutions, Sanity is absolutely correct about the problem.

Medicare is indeed in trouble, much more than Social Security.

And for exactly the reasons he states. Anyone want to add to the research, you'll find that's the case.

And come on---don't look so shocked. So I agreed with Sanity--I said only about the problem, not the solution!

We disagree on health care--the status quo is unsustainable. We simply have to do something, even if flawed. But where we agree again--you won't see me making light of the cost.

And there most definitely is a cost. There we agree again. It's just one we have to pay (and there we disagree again).

Anyone feeling dizzy?


I'm feeling pretty dizzy, because the thing everyone overlooks is that the problems can be solved with the stroke of a pen.

The problem is not the money is just not there but the money is being spent on other less worthwhile causes.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/8/2009 7:00:39 PM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		I think tazzy's has the better hypothesis that good health = less medicale expenses.  You have to be serious about it but if you are look at someone like Jack Lalanne.  He just turned 97 and is still healthy, still a business man, still very much active and alive and is obsessed with healthy living.  I have known and read of people much younger than him who racked up much higher medical expenses by not taking care of themselves.  But, I guess its easier to ignore people like that, reports like that, proof of that, to be able to say it will be more expensive to take care of people when they get old.  When the real way to think of it is it is going to cost more in medical expenses to take care of anybody, at any age, who doesn't take responsibility for their own health.

As far as waste in medicare, I doubt those numbers are just "magically" appearing.  They are "finally" being realized.  To cut the waste and the fraud will certainly help.  To deny it isn't/wasn't there at all is the same mentality as death panels.

*Editted to add that this is just one tiny aspect.  Just one.  But if people were healthier they'd need less medication, less dr visits, less expensive tests and treatments...and so on.  And its just one tiny aspect of this.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 11/8/2009 7:02:47 PM >

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 6:25:53 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

good health = less Medicare expenses.
Of course it does. However it's irrelevant to the issue. Good health may mean less medical expense but longevity doesn't.

The methods available to keep people alive today, whether recovering from a heart attack, stroke, regulating diabetes, transplanting kidneys, and a plethora of other common treatments are very expensive.The nightly menu of medications advertised on TV point to lifelong expensive treatment an ongoing maintenance.

"Good health" is relative. There are many people existing costing somebody, their families and/or their current insurance companies, hundreds of thousands of dollars to keep them that way. Not healthy in the least - but alive indefinitely. Trying to avoid value judgment, but the question is how long to you keep someone alive just because you can.

This is a big problem for the health care companies, especially those with contracts guaranteeing coverage for retire workers. The auto industry already died because they didn't foresee the condition of indefinitely sustaining life and its associated cost. The bigger pig in the snake is the number of employees in the public employee sector who have those same retirement health care benefits guaranteed. It would have bankrupted the health care insurance companies. But this bill comes to the rescue.

If this ever becomes las - all those "healthy" people, currently paying zero in insurance without coverage, are being promised by the House's Bill to pay for something they don't use. Pick a number; some say it will be $3000/person other sources say as much as $15,000 per person or suffer increasing penalties (starting at 2.5% of all income), ultimately including jail time. There is no government option in the current bill, so those celebrating this 'victory' should appreciate that the mandatory policy will be going to the health care companies, at least until 2013 there is no government option. No help or assistance to pay for the mandatory coverage until then. If nothing else - this bill should make the health care insurance companies VERY healthy.

Meanwhile - it's so interesting to see the celebration of corporate welfare!

Some notes:
quote:

Cost? $894 billion to $1.2 trillion over 10 years.Who pays? Higher income taxes on couples earning more than $1 million a year and singles making more than $500,000, Medicare and Medicaid cuts and savings.Must have? Those earning above $18,700 (couples) or $9,350 (singles) must have insurance or pay a 2.5% penalty on income.Any help? Individuals and families with annual income up to 400% of poverty level, or $88,000 for a family of four, would get sliding-scale subsidies starting in 2013.

(in reply to Louve00)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 6:48:43 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Individuals.

Individuals are required to obtain health insurance coverage or pay a fee equal to lower of 2.5 percent of their adjusted income above the filing threshold or the average premium on the Exchange. Individuals and families below the income tax filing are exempt. (NOTE: In 2009, the threshold for taxpayers under age 65 is $9,350 for singles and $18,700 for couples). Individuals may apply for a hardship waiver if coverage is unaffordable and selected exemptions from the mandate are provided in the statute. Those with coverage through the VA or who are eligible for government-sponsored healthcare because they are a member of a tribe are considered to have fulfilled the requirement to obtain coverage.


Its not on all income.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977887121&grpId=3659174697244816

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 6:49:31 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		I do agree its only a small part of the problem.  On the other hand, keeping people alive just to say you're keeping them alive is a far cry from a healthy lifestyle.  It is at that point in a family or individual's life to decide what is the prudent thing to do.  I won't even go there, but you know what I mean.  And why wouldn't good health and longevity not correlate?  If you've exercised all your life, ate all the right foods, supplemented what you knew your body wasn't and couldn't get enough of, why can't longevity have quality too.  That is a myth most people come to the conclusion of after visiting nursing homes, and remembering the dying process of an old relative or friend they have.  Did all those people care about their heart? or their blood sugar? or getting their asses up off the couch without a bunch of excuses and half intent?  Do that for a lifetime.  Live it as a lifestyle, then come back and tell me longevity still requires lowering the quality of life merely because of age.  A healthy person would likely be overpaying for their health care, in comparison to a person who regularly makes McDonalds their diet and the couch their mainstay.   But if that healthy person got into an accident and needed surgery, rehabilitation...whatever.  Or if that healthy person had some kind of congential disease then they'd at least have coverage. 

Now, if all Americans thought of that and acted on it, don't you think the cost of maintaining those people would go down?  Don't you think, overall, it would be less of a burden on the medical system, as a whole?  Again, this is just one tiny aspect.  One aspect every single person can take responsibility for.  But we have become a nation of "do it for me" (or let me pay you to do it), or hell, "I'm gonna die of something eventually, so why not have fun until then".  Who do you think, ultimately, in the end, pays for that mentality?

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 6:52:11 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol.. sorta sounds like the final scene from Logan's Run... dont trust anyone over 21.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 6:59:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

you've exercised all your life, ate all the right foods, supplemented what you knew your body wasn't and couldn't get enough of, why can't longevity have quality too.
No correlation is being denied. However, at some point, the body fails and that is where the largest expenses are incurred. That's the elephant in the room that isn't being considered.

quote:

"I'm gonna die of something eventually, so why not have fun until then". Who do you think, ultimately, in the end, pays for that mentality?
Currently those costs are paid for by people participating in health care insurance voluntarily - this proposal would make everyone pay, benefiting the health care insurance companies since they'll be able to spread out the cost.

Unless you want to look at it from the macro economic perspective. In that case we are all paying for it now in increased costs of goods from autos to services whose employees are covered by health care plans. The problem is - those costs in place now don't have universal coverage in the formula. When they do - all costs will have to go up to pay for it, and that 'end of life' care even for those who lived their entire lives 'healthy'. It's not life that's expensive it's preventing inevitable death.

Funny but when you think about it, the most cost effective part of the health care plan was taken out of it - 'Death Committees'.

(in reply to Louve00)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 7:20:19 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

No correlation is being denied. However, at some point, the body fails and that is where the largest expenses are incurred. That's the elephant in the room that isn't being considered.



Then we need to euthanize these old fucks who are costing us so much money.

Who volunteers their grandma first?

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 7:29:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
No correlation is being denied. However, at some point, the body fails and that is where the largest expenses are incurred. That's the elephant in the room that isn't being considered.

Then we need to euthanize these old fucks who are costing us so much money.
Who volunteers their grandma first?


Well if you say so, and maybe a few years down the line. However I would expect and anticipate that once health care is completely nationalized, after a three year profiting granted by this bill for the health insurance providers, the first steps will be mandating personal lifestyle. Outlawing, or at minimum, applying high taxes 'bad foods' such as soft drinks (already proposed), as they've done to tobacco products. Maybe the government option will require adherence to weight charts.

In fact I can see a generation from now people volunteering themselves for euthanasia instead of living, or rather existing, under a 'nanny' who tells you how to live, and what to eat and drink. They'll envy 'grandma'.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 8:26:43 AM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

you've exercised all your life, ate all the right foods, supplemented what you knew your body wasn't and couldn't get enough of, why can't longevity have quality too.
No correlation is being denied. However, at some point, the body fails and that is where the largest expenses are incurred. That's the elephant in the room that isn't being considered.

quote:

"I'm gonna die of something eventually, so why not have fun until then". Who do you think, ultimately, in the end, pays for that mentality?
Currently those costs are paid for by people participating in health care insurance voluntarily - this proposal would make everyone pay, benefiting the health care insurance companies since they'll be able to spread out the cost.

Funny but when you think about it, the most cost effective part of the health care plan was taken out of it - 'Death Committees'.


I would have to read and re-read what you said but I think we agree on a lot of things.  We just see them (or word them...OR agree/disagree) from a different perspective.

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 8:49:26 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

good health = less Medicare expenses.
Of course it does. However it's irrelevant to the issue. Good health may mean less medical expense but longevity doesn't.



Exactly, but it was taz's direct response to Sanity's longevity post where she insisted that lower expenses result. 25% of Medicare expenses are incurred for the last year of life. In less healthy times when the death process was far more sudden and life could not be prolonged for nearly is a long, those end of life expenses were far lower.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 8:52:49 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

No correlation is being denied. However, at some point, the body fails and that is where the largest expenses are incurred. That's the elephant in the room that isn't being considered.



Then we need to euthanize these old fucks who are costing us so much money.

Who volunteers their grandma first?




Ohhh, euthaniazia is such an emotional term. Substitute QALY's, its so much nicer, same result.

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 8:57:37 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Funny but when you think about it, the most cost effective part of the health care plan was taken out of it - 'Death Committees'.



Death committees were not effectively taken out, afaik. The CCER still exists and their QALY standards can still be applied to determine treatment options that will be covered.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 9:29:52 AM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		It is so wonderful to have access to the Internet and to quickly be able to become informed on such important issues and to learn the truth. For me the truth is my number one priority.

DownWithTyranny!: Who Voted Against Health Care Reform-- And Why?

I lived-tweeted last night's historic session of the House of Representatives as it voted to pass the health insurance reform bill. Despite countless attempts over nearly a century, no chamber of Congress has ever before passed comprehensive health reform. This is history. Tragically, 39 Democrats, mostly corrupt, bought-out Insurance Industry shills, crossed the aisle and found themselves on the wrong side of history. Only one Republican, Anh Cao-- ironically the Representative from New Orleans who was elected in response to a major corruption scandal-- crossed the aisle in the other direction, to stand on the right side of history.

Within moments of the final vote, the DCCC was out with a press release to media outlets in Milwaukee, Kenosha, Racine and Janesville pointing out that junior Republican congressional leader Paul Ryan-- the worst shill for the Medical-Industrial Complex ($730,315) and most nortorious lackey of the Insurance Industry ($518,051) in the history of Wisconsin-- was a leader of the mindless obstructionism that led the GOP to refuse to take a serious and constructive part in the debate, instead of just villifying the entire process. The headline: Representative Paul Ryan Just Says No To Affordfable Health Care For America's Middle Class. Although much of the media in his home district reflexively works to shield and protect Ryan from "bad" news, this is what they were reading this morning:

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2009/11/who-voted-against-health-care-reform.html


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RE: Health Care Bill passes the House! - 11/9/2009 2:46:27 PM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

you've exercised all your life, ate all the right foods, supplemented what you knew your body wasn't and couldn't get enough of, why can't longevity have quality too.
No correlation is being denied. However, at some point, the body fails and that is where the largest expenses are incurred. That's the elephant in the room that isn't being considered.

quote:

"I'm gonna die of something eventually, so why not have fun until then". Who do you think, ultimately, in the end, pays for that mentality?
Currently those costs are paid for by people participating in health care insurance voluntarily - this proposal would make everyone pay, benefiting the health care insurance companies since they'll be able to spread out the cost.

Funny but when you think about it, the most cost effective part of the health care plan was taken out of it - 'Death Committees'.


I would have to read and re-read what you said but I think we agree on a lot of things.  We just see them (or word them...OR agree/disagree) from a different perspective.


Ok, I'm off work now and capable of quickly posting a thought (much less processing one lol).

I don't know how you're looking at it, Merc, but I see it this way...

Of course, as a body ages and approaches death, which it will inevitably, the health care costs of that process will cost money.  However, in the process of that particular individuals life a whole lot cost was put into maintaining his life.  If he wasn't on bp medicine, diabetic medicines and supplies, had any heart or hip/joint surgeries, the cost of the end of his life would be cheaper than that of a person who's already spent a ton of money just maintaining as normal a life as he could.  And too, the possibility of a person living a healthy lifestyle may entail a shorter untimely demise than one who's been treated for it years previously.  So yes...eventually that older, healthier person will run into medical health costs.  But averaging it all out, I would rather be his insurance company (or in other words paying his bills, vs that of a diabetics...or smokers...or a person with heart diseased (what I call induced heart disease from the things he poured into his body during his life).

As far as who pays for it all in the long run...if more people were conscious of their health, while we all may be paying for it, we'll all be paying less of it.  (See the paragraph above this one for the why's of my logic there).  That would go for gov't insurance or pvt insurance.  Both would benefit and save, that way.

And if you mean a death panel is the result of someone (like me, for instance) not wanting heroics performed on me when I've reached the end of my life (no matter how I lived it), I still do plan to impose my own person death panel on myself  

**Editted to add... I maintain, this is just but one tiny aspect...one way.  There are bigger ways to make things better.  This would just be a conscious start on everyones part.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 11/9/2009 2:49:42 PM >

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 75
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