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Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or deperso... - 11/12/2009 8:17:34 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I think so. IMHO, female subs tend to want vaguely to please their partner, and wish for him to call the shots. While male subs tend to want to have specific fantasies and actions done.

I have to agree with DS. In my experience, the women I've known didn't have a list, or it was a very short one and revolved around personality instead of 'do this or that'. Men tend to make kinky lists, and I still haven't figured out WHY.

I have to say that isn't what I've observed here/on other BDSM discussion boards, or in person. A lot of women have quite a list of things they love and dislike, but if they're submissive, are willing to forgo things they enjoy or endure things they don't. In my opinion, it's directly linked to my view of submission. It shouldn't always be awful, with the submissive never getting his or her needs met, of course. There's a balance, but for many people, submission does involve a certain amount of sacrifice.

I only had a couple of "must haves" (wrestling/playfighting and biting) when I was looking. Nobody seemed to feel that was unreasonable (although a couple of people weren't interested), and I tried to make a point of focusing on the individual person and other aspects of the potential relationship.

A lot of submissive and bottom/masochistic men, in my experience and also through here/other message boards, very explicitly put the kinks in front of the relationship (and the cart before the horse). They want a kinky Santa Claus (or Mrs. Claus) who will deliver everything on their list to order, and it feels very objectifying/depersonalising, even though I'm sure that isn't what they intend. I think that it's their approach, being a bit pushy/tactless about it, which gives this impression. Nobody would have a problem with expressing their preferences, or making sure that their needs (including a few kinky ones) are met. However, they seem to feel that putting up the shopping/wish list is the best way to find a Domme (I can't speak to the gay and bisexual subs here - most seem to have it far more together).

Hmm, I don't feel I was able to say this as well as it was in my head, but what it boils down to is that submissives (and people of every other D/s orientation), whether male or female, are probably going to have some kinks they enjoy better than others, things that are dealbreakers, things that are crucial. The approach you take to getting those needs met is what is important, and doing it without coming across as a pushy jerk seems to come more naturally to more women than men. So, men who are looking would do well to evaluate their profiles and their initial e-mails to check to make sure they are coming across that way, if they want to experience reality rather than merely fantasy.
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 8:58:40 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		We have pretty much the same discussion on a regular basis fairly often on the Mistress board.  As you know, we get more than our share over there.  Much of it boils down to the last five words in the original post.  Reality rather than merely fantasy.

Everybody has wants.  That seems perfectly natural to Me.  We also tend to prioritize our wants.  As I wrote on another thread recently for an example, I want love more than I want a candy bar.  Everything that I want is somewhere on that priority list. 

Since I've been here a while, there are some folks who read these boards that could pull My name out of the random CM hat, and probably be correct if they were asked if they knew one of My kinky wants.  It could be spurred from a memory related to any number of posts.  The same is true in reverse.  Over a multitude of threads that I've read and heard responses from various people, I've heard their kinky wants, too.  Not because of the dreaded laundry list, but because of the conversations that these boards have provided.  People relating what happens in their real lives.

It's very rare to see that laundry list from the people who spend their time doing this away from the screen.  It isn't items on the list that they wish they had.  It's more focused on the things they did, they saw, or they participated in.  When you already have something, the desire to proclaim that you want it ceases to exist.  Much like the candy bar.  If I have one in My hand, I have no need to say that I want it. 


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(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 9:11:18 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		i think men in general are more up-front and out-spoken about their needs and wants whether they are Dom or sub...
and i think women in general, Domme or sub, are more inclined to hint and hope that men to just know what they need and want

i think there is a massive difference between the sexes when it comes to communicating... and understanding what is meant

(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 9:26:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...The approach you take to getting those needs met is what is important, and doing it without coming across as a pushy jerk seems to come more naturally to more women than men...


this slave hasn't perceived it to be so much as a male/female thing.  more of a perception on what is considered as pushy and jerk-ish.
 
there are plenty of profiles and plenty of posts from submissive females that insert all sorts of references and outright demands either from their current or a potential partner that this slave perceives as pushy and jerk-like.  flowering it up with fancy words or keeping in mind it is coming from someone born with feminine genitalia doesn't make it any less so.
 
this slave is from the camp that doesn't perceive demands, lists of limits, conditions and must-haves as submissive, anyway, so that could be why she doesn't see the distinction between male/female submissive communication language that you refer to.

(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 9:55:20 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
Hmm, I don't feel I was able to say this as well as it was in my head, but what it boils down to is that submissives (and people of every other D/s orientation), whether male or female, are probably going to have some kinks they enjoy better than others, things that are dealbreakers, things that are crucial. The approach you take to getting those needs met is what is important, and doing it without coming across as a pushy jerk seems to come more naturally to more women than men. So, men who are looking would do well to evaluate their profiles and their initial e-mails to check to make sure they are coming across that way, if they want to experience reality rather than merely fantasy.
OK, I'm not signing up for the "bad men" line. But expressed more generically in terms of people, not men, I think that some people are takers and some are givers. The takers look at a relationship and say "what can I get out of it?" The givers look and say, "What can I put into it?" I don't notice any significant difference in the genders between these two things. Nor do I notice any difference between doms and subs on it. I personally prefer a relationship where both are givers. For me, at least, I like just having to worry about what Carol needs and let her worry about what I need.

MY approach is to find someone who is a giver and then let them worry about meeting my wants, needs, desires, and dreams. But that is not a prescription for everyone. Hell, a fair number of subs here on collarme would find that not domly. In the end, everyone has a strategy and it's not my place to judge it. In the end, their own success and/or failure is judgement enough.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 10:21:58 AM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline 		There are those of both sexes who seem a bit too demanding, in my opinion. However, I feel there can be a balance. One shouldn't be all about some list of demands and conditions. But, I feel any rational individual with any amount of self-awareness and self-respect can be open about what they do and do not want without it making them somehow not submissive. I guess there are rare gems who are blank slates for anyone who desires to to take charge of. This slave, however, is not among them. Master didn't want someone who didn't have any interests, opinions, preferences or desires. Since I'm a healthy, intelligent functioning human being, He assumed I had some and we talked openly about them. No list of demands was presented. We just had some lovely, intimate talks about what I liked and didn't, what I was willing to do, etc. Didn't make me one iota less submissive because He listened to them and took them into consideration.

One can have preferences without being a jerk or not submissive. It's all about how they present and discuss them that matters.

luci

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(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 10:43:06 AM   
kccuckoldmist


Posts: 97
Joined: 7/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

i think men in general are more up-front and out-spoken about their needs and wants whether they are Dom or sub...
and i think women in general, Domme or sub, are more inclined to hint and hope that men to just know what they need and want

i think there is a massive difference between the sexes when it comes to communicating... and understanding what is meant


I strongly agree with this.

We all have needs and desires and we are all at our core selfish people for the most part. When I mean selfish is we do most things to get our needs and desires met and even doing things we prefer not to do just means we understand or perceive the value in them or the cost in not doing them.

Men and women for the most part what Ranja mentioned is all that is different.

In my opinion when relationships and sexuality tend to be talked about when both genders are present there tends to be a strong female bias. The bias is not so much projected lies and falsehoods but more in terms of females are far less questioned or put under a microscope then what we do with men.

So on boards like this a man with a question about sex or kink can get blasted as a loser while a woman can often ask the same thing and the questions are respected. What I see on this boards and it is not remotely exclusive to this board is the difference how the genders communicate is that we accept how a female communicates as pretty much always ok and we are often suspicious of men. In other words women are usually innocent before proven guilty and men are often guilty before proven innocent.

My utmost favorite example of this is when females, often proudly, how they are exploring this life and date men without any self awareness or commitment towards the power exchange dynamic but a man who wants to date and explore the possibilities he is often accused of a player only looking for casual sex.

Back more to the OP, my experience is male submissives are actually quite desperate to find a female dominant that actually will take charger and lead a relationship. I also found in my local community experiences many female submissives that were primarily there for a social life and to get specific things fulfilled in them. But men do tend to be too blunt and straight forward and women do tend to over romanticize and polish their needs and desires to make them sound nobler. I have always thought when this comes to sexual things this has to do with the age old a sexually active man can often get a pat on the back and a sexually active female is stamped a slut.


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(in reply to ranja)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 3:45:00 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
i think men in general are more up-front and out-spoken about their needs and wants whether they are Dom or sub...

and i think women in general, Domme or sub, are more inclined to hint and hope that men just know what they need and want

i think there is a massive difference between the sexes when it comes to communicating... and understanding what is meant


Excellent post. This is all true and it has so little to do with kink. The second line describes almost every woman I have ever known, kinky or not. Sometimes I think people are vague about expressing wants even thought they have a clear idea so that they can't be held accountable if the want isn't what they bargained for even if it is delivered as requested. When I made my first foray into a more structured D/s type of relationship with an ex-submissive I sat her down one time and asked her for her input about what she liked and wanted... what the whole D/s thing was about for her. She handed me a copy of one of those "Martketplace" books and told me everything I needed to know was in there. Live and learn.

Being vague does actually have its advantages sometimes. If you are lucky enough to meet a submissive who does not have the proverbial list and can find a way to derive their fulfillment from your pleasure (in a D/s context) then it's all good. I remember a quote I read in a thread on another kink site: "It's not about what I want. It's about what he wants and learning to want that as much as he does". It's a needle in a haystack but when it happens it's a beautiful thing.




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"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to ranja)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 4:15:14 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~
I tend to believe that a lot of the time men are more kink/sex driven and women are more relationship driven.  But I've seen exceptions to that rule with both genders.  I've read female sub profiles that are very demanding, and then I have personal experience with my previous Sir Who was one of the most giving people I have ever had the good fortune to know.  So, it really is an individual thing.

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(in reply to DomImus)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 5:41:57 PM   
MsBearlee


Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

]OK, I'm not signing up for the "bad men" line. But expressed more generically in terms of people, not men, I think that some people are takers and some are givers. The takers look at a relationship and say "what can I get out of it?" The givers look and say, "What can I put into it?"


Well yeah...and then there are the people POSING as one sex, when they're another. Or...POSING as a Dom or sub...just to get some poor schmuk to by it and offer up some wank material.

THEN what? I prefer to believe I really do know better than to by into any sort of bigoted attitude...but sometimes something is just SO bold...I find myself believing it's someone, over the top, and trying to be something they are not. Oddly, it's often got a feminine profile.

Right here in our little neighborhood. The shame!

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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 5:57:30 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Imo, most people are selfish. There's really no such thing as a selfless act and so you'll see an equality of both male and females in listing their wants and desires in profiles.

It really is all about getting those fulfilled in a relationship. Men are just usually more brash about it while women are usually subtle about it.

It's just simply finding someone who is a match.

(in reply to MsBearlee)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/12/2009 7:54:46 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I agree with everyone who has said that women can be just as demanding, but tend to be smoother about it. That's what I was trying to get at, actually. There's nothing wrong with men expressing their needs and desires, but being a little more umm tactful about it tends to be a good idea.

Jeff, I don't think the men who do this are necessarily takers, just perhaps communicating poorly, in a way that makes it less likely that they'll get what they want.

kccuckoldmist, I agree that in general, men tend to be much more receptive of women expressing their sexual desires right away, when they don't know each other. There are some exceptions, and I've seen quite a few threads about any expression of desire being interpreted as "topping from the bottom" regardless of the submissive's gender.

beth, in general, I agree that presenting a big shopping list (either to do or to not do) can come across poorly, or even as unsubmissive. I think that the way it is presented, and the reasons behind it, do matter though. In my example, it's not so much that I would refuse to date someone who wasn't willing to engage in those two activities, more that I do tend to *want* to do them with someone who I'm sexual with - it tends to be an aspect of how I express that. So, not having it as an option would tend to make me need to be focused on that, even when I *can't* focus. So, I figured I was better off with someone who I was compatible with in that respect than to have to worry that I'd slip up at some point and annoy my partner or get punished. I did try to present it respectfully, though.

DomImus, I don't think the two are incompatible. I'm very phereomone-driven in addition to wanting to please my Master out of submission, so I literally get turned on by his arousal. There are some sensations that I enjoy more than others. Sometimes he indulges me, sometimes he enjoys hurting me in ways I dislike, often he has orders for me that have nothing to do with kink. I enjoy serving him and pleasing him in a lot of non-sexual ways as well - if it were just in the bedroom, I wouldn't feel right about calling myself a submissive, much less his slave. The power dynamic extends to a lot of different areas of our relationship/my life. There are some things I've enjoyed in the past that he is uninterested in, or doesn't have much experience with, and I don't particularly miss them, and certainly wouldn't pressure him to do them to me.





< Message edited by Andalusite -- 11/12/2009 7:58:57 PM >

(in reply to littlewonder)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/13/2009 5:19:13 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't see knowing what you like and dislike as being unsubby. I see it as maximizing your chances of finding a compatible partner.

With that said, someone with a huge laundry list is unlikely to find someone who matches. Someone with only a few items, and those more general is more likely to get lucky and find a partner they match up well with.

If it takes you more than one or two lines to sum up your kink needs, you aren't going to find that inside of a relationship. You may well find one person who will cane you, another who is into needle play and always looking for a new bottom, and so on, but that's not a relationship.


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(in reply to Andalusite)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/13/2009 5:40:14 AM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline 		As I may have stated before, I am not going to get involved in a long discussion about my kinks with a male I've never even met. It's not that I don't have them. Some are fairly strong needs (OTK spanking and resistance play), others much less so. But initially, I am interested in assessing our compatibility on other levels.

If we are compatible in terms of hard limits, in terms of expectations, in terms of what kind of dynamic we are seeking, then you move forward to exploring and discussing.

For me at least, in the early part of a relationship it should be all about exploring where you can go as a couple, as opposed to "Does this person meet my kink check list?"




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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/13/2009 8:08:20 AM   
bipet123


Posts: 9
Joined: 11/12/2009
Status: offline 		hmmm I am quite new to this and I will be the first to hold my hands up to admit that. Firstly, this site when filling out the profile stuff more or less makes a list for you. I have to admit that I filled out everything on the profile thing, then when I noticed that most people had not touched it, I deleted quite a bit but left the kink list up.
I think the most frustrating thing about my past relationships has not been so much fulfilling my kink list but topping from bottom up (is that the phrase?), yes I have turn ons but it is more frustrating when one of your turn ons is actually doing something to please your partner with one of their turn ons but your partner does not tell you what they want. After crossdressing, my biggest turn on is pleasuring someone else sexually without any physical gratification myself... I am never sure if that is selfish for me or for them. It is ironic that my second biggest kink is doing anything to satifsy my partner's biggest kink without actually getting off on it (it is all messed up, I know). What I am trying to say really is that it is frustrating for a sub if the dom/me does not know what they want and so allows the sub to dictate the terms.  

(in reply to daintydimples)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/13/2009 9:23:23 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...beth, in general, I agree that presenting a big shopping list (either to do or to not do) can come across poorly, or even as unsubmissive. I think that the way it is presented, and the reasons behind it, do matter though. In my example, it's not so much that I would refuse to date someone who wasn't willing to engage in those two activities, more that I do tend to *want* to do them with someone who I'm sexual with - it tends to be an aspect of how I express that. So, not having it as an option would tend to make me need to be focused on that, even when I *can't* focus. So, I figured I was better off with someone who I was compatible with in that respect than to have to worry that I'd slip up at some point and annoy my partner or get punished. I did try to present it respectfully, though...orig: Andalusite


this slave can understand what you are saying.  preferences, opinions, ideas, suggestions, input, maybe-as-a-treat-if-you'd-allow-its are all things that get discussed around here...but it isn't, and never has been, in the context of must-haves or deal-breakers.  a purely sexual D/s relationship would have been great, but we found that we were much more compatible than just the bedroom and we both considered a Master/slave relationship with each other to be the most natural, organic, fun and fulfilling way for our interactions and insatiable desire to be with each other to progress.
 
this slave's core need/desire/orientation/fetish/expression of personality/however-you-want-to-call-it is to submit.  not to bottom or submit to particular, specific activities, although that is fun, too, and there is nothing wrong with that...it just isn't this slave's focus, and more often than not, the source of her disconnect, with males or females, be it a bullet-list or some flowery creative prose in hand, when they speak about their experiences with and expectations of bottoming or submission.


quote:

...it is more frustrating when one of your turn ons is actually doing something to please your partner with one of their turn ons but your partner does not tell you what they want...orig: bipet123


that pretty much sums up why this slave stopped getting into relationships with vanilla men. it frustrated this slave and they thought she was (and still think she is) flat out nuts.

quote:

...What I am trying to say really is that it is frustrating for a sub if the dom/me does not know what they want and so allows the sub to dictate the terms...orig: bipet123


this slave can relate to that as well.  if Master had desired this slave to dictate the terms of our relationship or sex life, she would not perceive Him as dominant and we wouldn't have a relationship.

(in reply to bipet123)
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RE: Spinoff: kinky lists without being demanding or dep... - 11/13/2009 11:52:16 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Beth,

As always, your writing is gloriously beautiful, user friendly, and astoundingly insightful.
Thank you for sharing what you did.

Best to you and Mr. Merc,
sunshine


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