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RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 7:40:34 AM

enrapturedsoul

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/12/2009
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I believe in the idea that a slave consents once, and a submissive consents every time. With both, its very important to sit down and about expectations and limits. I'm a slave myself and I don't believe in being "no limits". A good Master will tell you that he wants you to have at least some limits, because who wants a slave who is okay with having her arm chopped off?

A slave is also not weak. Who would want a weak slave anyway? What good would that do? I'm a very strong woman, as are all the slaves that I know in real-time.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 21

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 10:20:32 AM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: QueenPenelope

can someone elaborate more on the differences between the two for me?
-Queen Penelope

Sub has three letters, slave has five.

It's a label, nothing more.

I have consented once and I'm a sub. So, the definitions are not one size fits all.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to QueenPenelope)

Post #: 22

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 10:25:46 AM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Drifa
The name is irrelevant.
Once you each completely are understanding one another's needs and desires and limits, then you can call the resulting relationship "Rumcake" if you wish. It's the actions that matter, not the label.

Bravo! This is very nicely put.
I have seen this question kicked around for at least the 10 years I have been into this, argued endlessly on message boards, chat rooms, and in BDSM clubs, without ever a clear resolution. The reason is that BDSM relationships come in so many different types; live together, or live apart; monogamous or poly; One time session, or ongoing; short term, or long term.
When the words are parsed and teased apart and analyzed, (and believe me, they have- endlessly, ad nauseum, to the point of madness) the only difference between them disappears into a haze of linguistic fuzz, and they really end up meaning that one person does what the other person wants, to varying degrees.

The terms themselves are only meaningful to relationships that are defined by play sessions or sexuality. They don't really translate too well into the messy realities of 24/7 day to day lives that people live, with its constant upheavals and neverending change.
Living as a couple or a family, whether vanilla or D/s, is less about negotiation and limits than cooperation and compromise.

(in reply to Drifa)

Post #: 23

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 12:08:05 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: enrapturedsoul
A slave is also not weak. Who would want a weak slave anyway? What good would that do? I'm a very strong woman, as are all the slaves that I know in real-time.

Good for you. I'm not.
I have generalized anxiety disorder and suffer panic attacks. I am weak.
Luckily he wants me anyway, despite the fact that I'm a pushover.

And there are just as many like me who don't have to go about saying how strong we are in case otherwise someone might think we're a doormat as there are types like you.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to enrapturedsoul)

Post #: 24

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 1:59:30 PM

S2

Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
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Perhaps it can be added that the discussion could benefit from a bit of... dissection...

Whats in a name? it is perfectly valid to say that "sub" and "slave" are mere labels, and it really doesn't matter which one is used. I can call myself katrina, or anirtak, it doesn't change who or what I am. However, it should be noted that there do exist people who call themselves as either sub or slave, and would be annoyed, if not offended, to be addressed as the other. There are those who would refuse to be called a slave, and there are those who would insist on being called slaves. This might suggest there is more to the label than logic suggests.

Personally, I would prefer not to have to call myself, "anirtak". I think the reasons are obvious.

On the other hand, consider this: when shopping, how much do we depend on labels? if we wish to buy an american grown orange, or an imported orange, what is there to tell us which is which? What if an imported orange was labelled as american grown, or if an american orange was labelled as imported?

Here is where the label becomes important, especially considering here at Collarme.com there is an option to advertise as a sub, or a slave. Here, one would probably want to take into account the expectations of the "shoppers". What do they expect to see from one who advertises as a slave? and what would they expect to see from one who advertise as a sub?

It is thus unfortunate that there seems to be no uniformly agreed on definitions for what subs and slaves are.

Are slaves better than sub? Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe slaves are seen as being easier to manipulate, thus are considered more desirable by those who are of that inclination. Maybe subs are seen as being less clingy and needy, thus are considered more desirable for those who find that to be important.

Perhaps, in the end, the differences between slaves and subs lie not in logic and reason, but in prejudices and stereotypes.

And, as irrational as it is to succumb to prejudices and stereotypes, I would still say that it is close-minded to simply state that no differences exist between slaves and subs. For, clearly, a difference exists in many minds, however subjective those differences may be.

I believe I have typed a lot of words but said very little...

So, to conclude: I would call myself a slave for I believe in being owned, as a car is owned, and as a computer is owned. A piece of property, which is within the right of the owner to do with as he pleases, to keep, or to give away, to hoard or to lend out. Does that make me better than a sub? Does that really make me a slave? I do not know. I wait for Masters to decide whether or not I have correctly labelled myself.

< Message edited by S2 -- 11/27/2009 2:02:53 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 25

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 2:29:05 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Katrina, the fact that a difference exists in someone's mind does not automatically translate to a difference in reality.

My stepson was espousing the fact that in his view a BMW is the best car ever made, most long lasting, needing fewer repairs etc. Which is his view but not factual. Because the damn things are mechanically great but known to have major electrical problems.

In his mind it's true, in Car & Driver magazine ratings, it is not.

Same here. There are slaves here who do less than I do. So where's the reality? Yes they may take more pain but they choose to get into a pain play relationship. But they don't iron or pick up their dominant's dirty socks or drop everything to bake fresh cookies when he expresses a hankering. So are they better because they are doing something they agreed to do in the beginning or am I better because I make his life better and not just a couple of hours playtime a week?

There is no right answer here, if the relationship they are in is one in which they are only expected to get together once a week and scene, then in terms of edgier play they are more edgy than I am. However I'm not with a sadist but a dominant who prefers bondage so their vaunted ability to take pain would not impress The Man nearly as much as my ability to produce a great apple pie with an hour's notice simply because he doesn't want a pain slut.

You choose a relationship that fits your needs. If you choose badly, you aren't magically a better slave/sub/slub for putting up with something that does not fulfill you. Any more than I am a better slub for picking a relationship that does fulfill me. Being a martyr doesn't put you in the running for a leather title.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to S2)

Post #: 26

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 3:11:41 PM

S2

Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline

I think I need to clarify. I did not mean to imply that having a difference automatically make one better than the other.

As the example with oranges, it is true that where it was grown does not make one better than the other, even if some may prefer one over the other. Nonetheless, one cannot say that they are identical and are interchangeable.

Of course, I will not be able to argue the differences between the breeds of oranges, I am not a specialist in citrus fruits. However, if you wish, the differences between slaves and subs can be discussed in more detail.

< Message edited by S2 -- 11/27/2009 3:21:46 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 27

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 3:20:04 PM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
...the differences between slaves and subs can be discussed in more detail.

And unfortunately, they usually are.

Someone less lazy than I can probably so a search of the message boards.
Type in keywords "slave", "submissive", "Nietzche", "Kiergegaard", "Esclavus", "Latin root" "semantic", "etymology", "Indo-European proto linguistic", "dimwit", "fuck you too", "in yer ass", "fake", and of course, "wannabee".

(in reply to S2)

Post #: 28

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 3:25:19 PM

S2

Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline

may I ask, how is it unfortunate to discuss a topic in detail?

< Message edited by S2 -- 11/27/2009 4:19:53 PM >

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 29

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 4:28:23 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

I believe this: http://www.collarchat.com/searchpro.asp?phrase=sub+vs+slave+&advancedMatch=on&author=&forumid=ALL&topicreply=both&message=subject&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+

is likely what he meant. If you go there it shows page 1 of 4 pages of results for threads titled sub vs slave or close to same. It has been discussed in depth repeatedly on these forums. Reading through some of them may help you or others find something that resonates with them.

ETA: And that is just a small portion of such threads here.

< Message edited by SassySarijane -- 11/27/2009 4:30:53 PM >

_____________________________

Sarah2
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Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to S2)

Post #: 30

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 4:33:49 PM

CaringandReal

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlebutterfly

slave=
submissive =

:D

The submissive one reminds me of Krazy Kat for some reason. With every brick the little hearts popped out of his eyes. ;)

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to subtlebutterfly)

Post #: 31

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 4:41:10 PM

CaringandReal

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: shinylight7

A slave= you consent once. After that it's either do or leave.
A sub=you consent each and every time. You have a choice in what happens to you.

I Disagree!

A slave is a servant who has consented to being treated lowly. A slave is weak.
A sub gives service from his/her heart all the time every time. A sub is strong.

You have a point. Slaves are terribly weak in some ways. But at least they like being that way. Some like it very much, in fact. And... it suits them, which is all that's important when the chores are done and it's time to go to sleep. :)

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to shinylight7)

Post #: 32

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 4:56:01 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

quote:

ORIGINAL: shinylight7

A slave= you consent once. After that it's either do or leave.
A sub=you consent each and every time. You have a choice in what happens to you.

I Disagree!

A slave is a servant who has consented to being treated lowly. A slave is weak.
A sub gives service from his/her heart all the time every time. A sub is strong.

You have a point. Slaves are terribly weak in some ways. But at least they like being that way. Some like it very much, in fact. And... it suits them, which is all that's important when the chores are done and it's time to go to sleep. :)

i really feel compelled to say being a slave DOES NOT mean one is treated "lowly," nor does it mean one is weak.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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candy posts in pink font

(in reply to CaringandReal)

Post #: 33

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 4:58:12 PM

S2

Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SassySarijane

I believe this: http://www.collarchat.com/searchpro.asp?phrase=sub+vs+slave+&advancedMatch=on&author=&forumid=ALL&topicreply=both&message=subject&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+

is likely what he meant. If you go there it shows page 1 of 4 pages of results for threads titled sub vs slave or close to same. It has been discussed in depth repeatedly on these forums. Reading through some of them may help you or others find something that resonates with them.

ETA: And that is just a small portion of such threads here.

Thank you for the link, I have read through both of the threads present (with the exception of the links listed in the "Sub Vs Slave" thread).

I would like to note that both threads from the link illustrates my point that there do exist a difference between a sub and a slave.

< Message edited by S2 -- 11/27/2009 5:56:40 PM >

(in reply to SassySarijane)

Post #: 34

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 5:28:46 PM

ncbabe

Posts: 1060
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

A slave= you consent once. After that it's either do or leave.
A sub=you consent each and every time. You have a choice in what happens to you.

Most people agree with this, and I am one of them, but I would like to add that to begin with I did consent each and every time. This consent was consciously given less and less frequently until eventually it was acknowledged that I would do anything he told me to.

This basically leaves me in a 'do or leave' situation. But this is a relationship, not some non-negotiable business arrangement. If I ever have any genuine concerns with what is being asked of me, he expects me to raise them with him, not walk away from him.

_____________________________

As we think, so we become.

Nichts ist unmöglich

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 35

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 6:06:25 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

The difference that exists in threads that you point to are differences you already believe in. In effect you are preaching to the choir.

There is no factual based hard and fast difference that could be used in a dictionary. And this is because a bdsm slave does not exist legally. Therefore it is a fictional difference.

It doesn't matter how many people you gather to agree with you, it is opinion only.

And as AR said so succinctly, these differences apply only to play sessions. Not to a full life. Him calling himself master of the universe, and me agreeing with him, doesn't mean he's going to be sworn in as CIC tomorrow. It doesn't mean I still am not going through medical tests because he can't announce that he forbids me to have cancer or a benign tumor. Real life, unlike play, is beyond our control.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to ncbabe)

Post #: 36

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 6:25:32 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: S2

Thank you for the link, I have read through both of the threads present (with the exception of the links listed in the "Sub Vs Slave" thread).

I would like to note that both threads from the link illustrates my point that there do exist a difference between a sub and a slave.

You're welcome and as I said, what I linked to was an extremely small portion of the overwhelming number of threads started here on this same topic so there is literally oodles of threads with info and opinions on the topic to be found.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to S2)

Post #: 37

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 6:26:56 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Being a martyr doesn't put you in the running for a leather title.

This is a great line.

And... dang, S2. What do you care what other people call themselves -- except to learn from them? Your comments are spilling over from description of your own dynamic, to a description of all dynamics. Reality doesn't tend to fit into overintellectualized boxes.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 38

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 6:29:06 PM

SassySarijane

Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

There is no factual based hard and fast difference that could be used in a dictionary. And this is because a bdsm slave does not exist legally. Therefore it is a fictional difference.

It doesn't matter how many people you gather to agree with you, it is opinion only.

I've got to agree with DesFIP in that it really is a matter of opinion and semantics. There's no hard and fast absolute definition of them in BDSM. Basic idea yes, but nothing absolute that everyone is required to believe and go by.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers
LPTnB

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 39

RE: Is there a difference between being a submissive an... - 11/27/2009 7:51:45 PM

elleX

Posts: 161
Joined: 10/24/2009
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to me , talking about real time only ,i see it that way ,, i think that enslavement is result of interest and investment transparence , insight ,,,,and time .
,,,,limits have to be talked openly from the beginning , i think,, to make sure you know who you are giving yourslef too..
of course surprise can happen,, but i think that if the points mentionned above are there ,,, you should be on a good path

(in reply to QueenPenelope)

Post #: 40

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