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RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 4:31:54 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The evidence for god that we are offered is always, it seems, based upon authority, faith, or personal revelation. Authority and faith are based upon some "holy" book or a lineage of priests, wise men, shamans, healers, what have you.

What I fail to understand is why believers feel such a fervent need to defend their god. Surely, he is a big boy and can defend himself. What is it that agitates the believers so?

And to kdsub what makes you so certain we wish to explain "the creation of all from nothing?" A basic law of nature is that mass/energy cannot be created or destroyed. This may seem mad to you if it is a new thought but perhaps mass/energy were never created but always existed. Just as good a hypothesis as a supernatural creator. Even better because we can experience and measure mass/energy and do not feel compelled to erect temples to it.

vincent


There is also the need for humans to feel a sense of belonging.  So it is human to try to fit personal experiences into a larger body of similar experiences and out of such comes religion.  In itself, harmless.  I don't defend God, yes, I agree, It doesn't require defending.  I do however take some offense at being told that my personal experiences ARE delusions just because some non-believing zealot says so. 

The shear volume of what we do know about the universe in which we live is a speck of dust compared to what we do not know.  If Super-natural simply means above nature, then it can only be compared to nature as we currently know it.  So if nothing is Super-natural, just nature undisovered, it would make more sense to keep an open and curious mind.  Again, I refer to those earliest scientists who, thinking they could change lead into gold, provided us with detailed properties of the elements.  Does it really matter the motive for discovery as long as we continue to seeks answers?


Sorry you took offense at my comment. It was not aimed at you. I had in mind such preachers as Jim Jones and David Koresh and others who placed themselves in the line of authority through personal revelation. I would appreciate your courtesy to point out where i made any reference to your personal experiences and to their being delusional. I have never spoken to you or in reference to anything you said with other than respect.

vincent


*smiles*  I was both commenting on your comment and addressing a larger audience at the same time.  Sorry.  I don't think you would consider yourself a non-believing zealot.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
I may be wrong when I assert there is no such thing as God but it is extremely unlikely. I took a course in statistics and I got 89% final mark so I know something about probability. I am 99.99999999% sure God does not exist except in people's delusional minds. But I am willing to admit there is a .00000001% chance I'm wrong.


But clearly some, without meeting me, knowing me, or having any idea what my personal experiences may be, can declare as fact that I am delusional.  To that I do take offense.

Again, if the zealots on both sides could open their minds just a smidge, there is plenty of room for agreement.  If God exists, It exists naturally, not super-naturally.  I am really excited about quantum physics because there may be some real breakthoughs there.  We humans have created God to be large.  So large that It encompasses all of the universe and beyond.  A better way may be to see God as tiny.  So tiny that It encompasses all of the universe and beyond.

http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/god-particle/particle-interactive.html

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RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 11:59:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

*smiles*  I was both commenting on your comment and addressing a larger audience at the same time.  Sorry.  I don't think you  
would consider yourself a non-believing zealot.


I do not but i have been called a nonreligious bigot which I found quite offensive especially since the accusation was used to avoid answering a premise I had proposed. I have become a little wary of name-calling on these boards as a result. I am so pleased you clarified the previous exchange. Thank you.

quote:

Again, if the zealots on both sides could open their minds just a smidge, there is plenty of room for agreement. If God exists, It exists naturally, not super-naturally. I am really excited about quantum physics because there may be some real breakthoughs there. We humans have created God to be large. So large that It encompasses all of the universe and beyond. A better way may be to see God as tiny. So tiny that It encompasses all of the universe and beyond.

http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/god-particle/particle-interactive.html


I read both articles you suggested above and found the National Geographic Article more pleasing because of its writing style. I tried to teach quantum energy in relation to electromagnetic spectral lines to my high school chemistry students with limited success. The years have passed and looking now at the new discoveries and speculations leaves me a bit gasping for air. Maybe because I am getting too freaking old. I did approve of the comment that we are just a naturally curious species and wish to know how things work. I was also impressed (distressed?) by the way the model becomes more contorted and tortured as we gain knowledge.

So I wonder, even if he boys and girls at the LHC do manage to detect a Higgs Boson and determine somehow it is a scalar elementary particle where does that leave us? Why your enthusiasm? Do you suggest it was god? If so, then god is dead. or at least humpty dumptied across an expanding universe. It further leads us to a myriad of quesitons. How did the Higgs come to exist? Are there other Higgs and if so other Universes now expanding merrily away?

I shall be interested in your thinking and speculation about the significance you perceive.

Poker with the boys tonight. I shall be back on tomorrow I imagine.
Be well, eyes.

Vincent

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 3:52:46 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		LOL.. someone told me you were whining on the boards again. Took you off block long enough to see you are. I was not the only one who took you to task over your statements. But honestly, im sure your Mistress would prefer for you to spend your time thinking of her and less time thinking about me. Honestly! You are a hoot!!

Back on block, dear boy.

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RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 6:00:21 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		 I'm psyched that the LHC is finally repaired and running.

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RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 6:44:58 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 6:50:37 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		I'm very sorry but a better way for me is to look at the evidence and as Richard Dawkins would say, 'the evidence is overwhelming for evolution' as well as in astronomy, there is no evidence of any God.

And there just isn't any evidence of any God of any kind and people need to get over it. Please stop believing 2000 year old nonsense because people had in those days the same kind of medical issues about mental health we do today, whether it's bipolar or epilepsy or schizophrenia or something else and at those times when they were having mental issues they may have thought they were talking to God, who knows?

I just can't grasp why people don't believe in facts but they believe so easily ridiculous stories and fantasies and now you're desperately trying to fit God into some quantum theory, amazing, in order to justify believing in its existence.

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 6:52:01 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Is there any evidence he doesnt exist?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 6:57:22 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Is there any evidence he doesnt exist?


Yes. Billions of hours spent searching for evidence he does exist.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 6:57:24 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

And there just isn't any evidence....I just can't grasp why people don't believe in facts...

Because "belief" does not require evidence.

And, for many people, personal belief trumps trust in facts...that even means people pretending their beliefs are supported, a priori, by older beliefs (theirs or others) which, due to antiquity, popularity, and/or habit, they have come to categorize as "evidence".

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 12/1/2009 6:58:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 7:00:28 PM   
NihilusZero


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From: Nashville, TN
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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 7:11:18 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Is there any evidence he doesnt exist?


Yes. Billions of hours spent searching for evidence he does exist.



Just out of curiosity... how many hours have been put into the search for the missing link?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 7:12:21 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Is there any evidence he doesnt exist?


Yes. Billions of hours spent searching for evidence he does exist.



Just out of curiosity... how many hours have been put into the search for the missing link?


far less than billions....and for something that existed hundreds of thousands of years ago. vs billions for something thats supposed to exist now.


< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/1/2009 7:16:42 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 7:43:59 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		But he has been around far longer and knows all the good hiding places

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 8:45:22 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, the fact that we can't prove he exists because we haven't found anything IS EVIDENCE. Why have we been able to prove some of the other things including evolution but not God? If he's not there may be it's because there isn't any god? Or is that too logical for you, too Mr. Spock-ish.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Is there any evidence he doesnt exist?


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 8:53:07 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Yes, the fact that we can't prove he exists because we haven't found anything IS EVIDENCE.

What would you expect to find, one of his old toothbrushes or something?

K.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 8:59:28 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		You're right, belief does not require facts or evidence. I'm trying so hard to think logically these days in order to improve my intellectual capacity so thinking like this just seems too contrarian to me.

My mother used to say when I was a kid, "You can knock on a deaf mans door all you want, he won't answer it." I guess that's the way it goes when a person is brainwashed with religion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

And there just isn't any evidence....I just can't grasp why people don't believe in facts...

Because "belief" does not require evidence.

And, for many people, personal belief trumps trust in facts...that even means people pretending their beliefs are supported, a priori, by older beliefs (theirs or others) which, due to antiquity, popularity, and/or habit, they have come to categorize as "evidence".


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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 9:22:44 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I don't expect to find anything. I don't want to waste time looking anymore. I don't want to waste my time reading anything about religion or listening to anything on TV or the radio about religion. We already have enough evidence that God doesn't exist so let's move on and cure all the diseases, start living on the moon, end wars, go to Mars and do other great things.

Like I said above, you can knock on a deaf mans door all you want he won't answer it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Yes, the fact that we can't prove he exists because we haven't found anything IS EVIDENCE.

What would you expect to find, one of his old toothbrushes or something?

K.


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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 9:42:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Like I said above, you can knock on a deaf mans door all you want he won't answer it.

You answered me

K.

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 10:22:55 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
We already have enough evidence that God doesn't exist


We have absolutely zero evidence that god doesn't exist. None. Zilch. Nada. Nada trace, nada shred, nada single atom of evidence that god does not exist.

None.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
so let's move on and cure all the diseases, start living on the moon, end wars, go to Mars and do other great things.


Cool. Let's do both. See any reason we can't? Any reason we can't do those things while still believing in god?

Your argument in the last few posts seems to hang on a false dilemma - the apparent proposition that if one believes in god, one must not believe in science. And that's just not valid. Like hundreds of millions of other people, I believe in both. I see absolutely no contradiction in the two belief sets; they reconcile perfectly, and in fact are in many ways interdependent upon one another. My belief in god does not depend at all on those 2000-year old fables - I suspect that I regard the wackos who wrote them as even more deranged and more disturbed than you do, and in fact I view them more with contempt than anything else, because I consider those people the lunatics who give god a bad name. Your argument is throwing a hell of a lot of babies out with the bathwater, I'm afraid.


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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: The puzzle of life - science versus creationism - 12/1/2009 11:23:20 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Your argument is throwing a hell of a lot of babies out with the bathwater, I'm afraid.

Not to mention that there are few spectacles more absurd than an evangelical atheist.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 180
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