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The Working Day - 11/30/2009 1:35:31 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

It is, however, clear that in any given economic formation of society, where not the exchange-value but the use-value of the product predominates, surplus-labour will be limited by a given set of wants which may be greater or less, and that here no boundless thirst for surplus-labour arises from the nature of the production itself. Hence in antiquity over-work becomes horrible only when the object is to obtain exchange-value in its specific independent money-form; in the production of gold and silver. Compulsory working to death is here the recognised form of over-work. Only read Diodorus Siculus. [9] Still these are exceptions in antiquity. But as soon as people, whose production still moves within the lower forms of slave-labour, corvée-labour, &c., are drawn into the whirlpool of an international market dominated by the capitalistic mode of production, the sale of their products for export becoming their principal interest, the civilised horrors of over-work are grafted on the barbaric horrors of slavery, serfdom, &c. Hence the negro labour in the Southern States of the American Union preserved something of a patriarchal character, so long as production was chiefly directed to immediate local consumption. But in proportion, as the export of cotton became of vital interest to these states, the over-working of the negro and sometimes the using up of his life in 7 years of labour became a factor in a calculated and calculating system. It was no longer a question of obtaining from him a certain quantity of useful products. It was now a question of production of surplus-labour itself: So was it also with the corvée, e.g., in the Danubian Principalities (now Roumania).


Any thoughtful reactions to these phenomena?

I've been considering whether, first, our current social-economic system is one predominately of freedom or of force. I am leaning toward force, where, historically and presently, the vast majority of people are driven from security and the insurance of the family, the home, sustenance, etc., into some type of market-dominated social relationship (employer and employee). While, theoretically, a market does not imply force, historically and presently this force is ubiquitous. Historically in the case of England, the process of enclosures tends to form the basis for what has been termed 'primitive accumulation,' or, more accurately, accumulation by dispossession -- stealing, theft of others' essential resources. In Africa, subsistence societies were deprived not of their land but of their people through the process of enslavement by aristocratic and merchant societies home and abroad.

In Europe, unlike Africa, the transition tends to fall along the lines of feudalism to capitalism. This transition, I think, obscures the very fundamental relationship between slavery and capitalism over and above that between feudalism and capitalism. Consider, for instance, the recent wave of foreclosures affecting mainly African Americans (i.e., in most cases, the descendants of slave populations). Does this dispossession not bear a more fundamental relationship to the sublimated force of slavery than to the force of feudalism? In feudalism, you're 'bound' to the land, and you rarely enter the market. How many foreclosed-upon homeowners would wish for such a boundary? Slavery, conversely, almost always implies passing through the market. What does it matter if the hand that forces you is visible or invisible? In fact, the danger of the invisible alternative is that you might forget that it is there.
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RE: The Working Day - 11/30/2009 10:08:40 AM   
popeye1250


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No.

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RE: The Working Day - 11/30/2009 11:30:00 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

No.


popeye, I never thought I'd accuse you of overthinking something, but that day has arrived.

Ron

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RE: The Working Day - 11/30/2009 12:09:49 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
In feudalism, you're 'bound' to the land, and you rarely enter the market. How many foreclosed-upon homeowners would wish for such a boundary?

Not actually true. There was a large itinerant labour force under feudalism, who made up a bigger chunk of the population than the bondsmen. They probably didn't like their situation much, but they were definitely there.

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RE: The Working Day - 11/30/2009 3:35:10 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
In feudalism, you're 'bound' to the land, and you rarely enter the market. How many foreclosed-upon homeowners would wish for such a boundary?

Not actually true. There was a large itinerant labour force under feudalism, who made up a bigger chunk of the population than the bondsmen. They probably didn't like their situation much, but they were definitely there.


Feudalism is not a universally accepted notion, but serfdom was real. It's not clear whether an itinerant labor force exceeded corvee labor, or, in what regions. A translation to a labor market would probably involve gradually more and more roaming laborers, the old "reserve force."

Also, that labor force itself was likely made up at least partly of household-based slave labor, which complicates but does in no ways contradict the above premises and conclusions.

What are your sources?

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RE: The Working Day - 11/30/2009 3:42:01 PM   
Moonhead


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A few history books. There was the whole thing of hiring fairs, which seems to have been set up to provide serfs who weren't landsmen with employment, for a start. It was pretty widespread in the UK, and I think it was also a big deal in Germany at one point.

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RE: The Working Day - 11/30/2009 8:49:13 PM   
Termyn8or


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FR

Egads, are we finally recognizing the class war for what it is ?

T

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 1:10:39 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Egads, are we finally recognizing the class war for what it is ?

T


America has always been a socialist nation, it's just a matter of which social group you're looking at. The bank bailouts were socialism for the rich par excellence.

If you go back in history, say, to Shay's Rebellion, you'll find a strikingly similar phenomenon, also relevant to the greater point of this post, that of the merchant class exploiting subsistence populations like what used to exist in Western Massachusetts. Boston bankers were foreclosing on subsistence farmers because of external financial pressure mainly from England, all the while speculating like crazy on bank notes. Sound familiar?

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 6:44:14 AM   
einstien5201


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Consider, for instance, the recent wave of foreclosures affecting mainly African Americans (i.e., in most cases, the descendants of slave populations). Does this dispossession not bear a more fundamental relationship to the sublimated force of slavery than to the force of feudalism?


Ok, seriously people. Why does everything have to be about slavery? I get that it was a horrible thing, that it may have affected people for generations. The Civil War ended in 1865, nearly 150 years ago. Yes, I realize that the Civil war wasn't the end of discrimination or the end of the effects of slavery. By even the most generous figures, that was a least four generations ago. We have African-Americans in every branch of government, including the Presidency and the Supreme Court. There are African-Americans included among the richest and most powerful people in the country. We live in a society that, while not perfect, is as close to a meritocracy as any civilization has had. If you desire to and have the innate ability to, you can improve your station in life. Nobody on this board can claim that they or even thier parents was ever a slave in the United States. I suppose it's possible for the older members here to have grandparents who were, but I doubt it's the case. Blaming our ancestors for our failures is juvenile and cowardly.

Foreclosures happened because people lived beyond thier means. Period. Losing your job is something you should have accounted for in your purchasing decision. It has nothing to do with slavery or feudalism, and everything to do with poor planning and greed. The current job market sucks. I won't deny that. But those who are out of work have only themselves to blame. In the end, there is no 'invisible hand', there is no 'market forces'. There is only a person and what they are willing and able to do.

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 7:56:08 AM   
servantforuse


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I don't have the facts to back this up, but I would be willing to bet that home foreclosures do not affect mainly African Americans. It is also a stretch to blame a foreclosure on slavery. Good grief.

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 7:56:47 AM   
Anarrus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201

But those who are out of work have only themselves to blame.


Would you care to elaborate more on your statement?

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 8:09:11 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I don't have the facts to back this up, but I would be willing to bet that home foreclosures do not affect mainly African Americans. It is also a stretch to blame a foreclosure on slavery. Good grief.

I think there's a lot of African Americans who have sub prime mortgages (for the obvious reasons), so there is a bigger chunk of them getting foreclosed on than should be the case statistically. I remember seeing something about that in the Guardian over the summer, but bear in mind that's a paper that makes the New York Times look like Fox News...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 8:11:10 AM   
Moonhead


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Though of course, there's a shitload of people of other races who are getting their homes foreclosed on as well. It isn't just the African Americans by any stretch of the imagination.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 8:19:27 AM   
mnottertail


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with the loss of jobs it isnt just the shiftless blacks and openly homosexuals and all the other 'fiscally conservative neo-con' portrayals that are losing their houses, even wal-mart republicans are in dire straits.

LOL, the indipidness of the blamelayers is astounding.

We are all to blame, every american, I cant talk about the other countries woes, and I think I might even make a post about it, if I get up the gumption.

(not that reprisals will come from the folks who could consider this slander, but note the dripping scarcasm, the rest of you, please).



< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/1/2009 8:22:45 AM >


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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 8:25:47 AM   
servantforuse


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The mortgage meltdown was caused by Congress, the banks and home buyers who bought homes that couldn't afford. Slavery was not to blame.

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 10:40:09 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: einstien5201

Foreclosures happened because people lived beyond thier means. Period. Losing your job is something you should have accounted for in your purchasing decision. It has nothing to do with slavery or feudalism, and everything to do with poor planning and greed. The current job market sucks. I won't deny that. But those who are out of work have only themselves to blame. In the end, there is no 'invisible hand', there is no 'market forces'. There is only a person and what they are willing and able to do.


I would have to disagree, stating that, since the 70s, people have had their 'means' squeezed by neoliberal economic policies (think Milton Friedman) and a massive wave of financialization of the economy that would make even political economic conservatives like Adam Smith want to puke all over our faces. Basically, the American Dream became a rental, and now the lease is up.

The comparison with slavery and feudalism is an abstract one, but not that abstract. Progress has occurred, but it's not clear whether our children will enjoy it, and in some cases it has occurred on the backs of the vast majority of the world population. There is always the risk that what goes around comes around.

The earliest surviving usage of the word 'freedom' comes from Mesopotamia. From an article by David Graeber, Debt: The First 5000 Years:

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Graeber
In years with bad harvests especially, peasants would start becoming hopelessly indebted to the rich, and would have to surrender their farms and, ultimately, family members, in debt bondage. Gradually, this condition seems to have come to a social crisis – not so much leading to popular uprisings, but to common people abandoning the cities and settled territory entirely and becoming semi-nomadic "bandits" and raiders. It soon became traditional for each new ruler to wipe the slate clean, cancel all debts, and declare a general amnesty or "freedom", so that all bonded labourers could return to their families. (It is significant here that the first word for "freedom" known in any human language, the Sumerian amarga, literally means "return to mother".) Biblical prophets instituted a similar custom, the Jubilee, whereby after seven years all debts were similarly cancelled. This is the direct ancestor of the New Testament notion of "redemption". As economist Michael Hudson has pointed out, it seems one of the misfortunes of world history that the institution of lending money at interest disseminated out of Mesopotamia without, for the most part, being accompanied by its original checks and balances.

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RE: The Working Day - 12/1/2009 12:33:43 PM   
Fellow


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quote:

Hence the negro labour in the Southern States of the American Union preserved something of a patriarchal character, so long as production was chiefly directed to immediate local consumption. But in proportion, as the export of cotton became of vital interest to these states, the over-working of the negro and sometimes the using up of his life in 7 years of labour became a factor in a calculated and calculating system. It was no longer a question of obtaining from him a certain quantity of useful products. It was now a question of production of surplus-labour itself:


Following this logic, US has exported the "surplus-labor" to the other countries and it is living on positive net import conditions. Therefore we are living in high degree of anti-slavery (freedom). The bad news; it is already coming to an end. Trade balance perhaps would be a equilibrium point.

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RE: The Working Day - 12/2/2009 1:02:28 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Hence the negro labour in the Southern States of the American Union preserved something of a patriarchal character, so long as production was chiefly directed to immediate local consumption. But in proportion, as the export of cotton became of vital interest to these states, the over-working of the negro and sometimes the using up of his life in 7 years of labour became a factor in a calculated and calculating system. It was no longer a question of obtaining from him a certain quantity of useful products. It was now a question of production of surplus-labour itself:


Following this logic, US has exported the "surplus-labor" to the other countries and it is living on positive net import conditions. Therefore we are living in high degree of anti-slavery (freedom). The bad news; it is already coming to an end. Trade balance perhaps would be a equilibrium point.


I think that's a good way to analyze the situation. With globalization, American capital has sought international solutions (read: Chinese, Indian labor markets) to maximize the drain of surplus value. On some level, American consumers have benefited from cheap imports, often with trading 'partners' at virtual or actual gun point, but most of the gains have been filtered off by the upper class and high finance, hence the widening income and salary gap. When force internationally no longer prevails, that force will return home to squeeze credit, roll back unions and 'superfluous' health care.

The notion of anti-slavery I think is right on. I have been considering whether, historically, earlier notions of freedom were formulated in reference to its obverse, namely, slavery, or, more generally, property. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? --this formulation I think is intentionally obtuse, neglecting Locke's original mention of 'property', as some will argue, to push aside the issue of slavery and its semi-obvious conflict with democratic values.

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