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What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 2:43:18 AM

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Following on from another thread, I have to ask, what is undoubtedly Christian about Christamas ?

The reason I have asked, is Christmas seems be be decked out with pre Christian symbology, holly, ivy, mistletoe, xmas trees, feasting , yule log etc.

What actually of Christmas, is of Christian origin, and what proportion is it, more than the heathen, or less ?

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 3:18:11 AM

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celebrating the birth of Jesus

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 3:39:22 AM

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But Jesus is purported not to have been born on the 25th of December, too much in the Bible suggests it was at a different time of year, see ;

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/HH/jcnotborndec25.asp

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 5:26:43 AM

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During the Christening of Europe ancient pagan ceremonies were surreptitiously recreated with a slightly new message until the people eventually forgot the original meaning of those ceremonies. This is the root of your confusion and these discrepancies.

This is the way religion works it creates this idea that it was always like this and hopes nobody asks any awkward questions.

I think you know this though, no?

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 5:31:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But Jesus is purported not to have been born on the 25th of December, too much in the Bible suggests it was at a different time of year, see ;

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/HH/jcnotborndec25.asp

why does it matter? For Christians, He was born, and we celebrate that birth on December 25th. Semantics are irrelevant.

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 5:33:36 AM

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Hope you aren’t decorating a tree this year.

Jeremiah 10:2-4

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 5:40:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Hope you aren’t decorating a tree this year.

Jeremiah 10:2-4

For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. Jeremiah10:1

i'm in the clear on this one. Our tree is artificial

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 6:15:56 AM

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Pope Julius the 1st decided the date to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

Christians argue that this date was nine months from 'The Feast of Annunciation' but conveniently that just also happened to coincide with pre-existing Pagan celebrations. Where people were burning Yule logs to worship the sun, cutting tress down and remounting them inside homes to beckon the new harvest and kissing under the mistletoe for fertility.

The full passage I previously referred to is a bit more specific and mentions decorating tress with silver and gold. Christians claim this was not specific to Christmas trees but creating false idols. The problem with that argument is that to pagans the symbol of a tree is worshipped as such and so it is an admission of what we know. However I doubt they decorated tress with gold and silver; not sure where they would get materials with such properties to do that during this, at best they would have dull metals.

Obviously I'm not an expert on ancient history but it's obviously not as clear cut as either side makes out.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 12/19/2009 6:21:21 AM >

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 7:04:26 AM

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Nobody really celebrates Christmas anymore... except the Chinese.

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 10:06:31 AM

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"i'm in the clear on this one. Our tree is artificial "

I guess that's something everybody likes about you Holly, you are forever optimistic :-).

But then technically the holiday itself is artificial. So appropo.

For now I will sit back and watch this thread grow until it is worthy of one of my outspoken, maybe even acidic comments. But don't worry, I'll pass out the Rolaids.

T

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 11:56:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

During the Christening of Europe ancient pagan ceremonies were surreptitiously recreated with a slightly new message until the people eventually forgot the original meaning of those ceremonies. This is the root of your confusion and these discrepancies.

This is the way religion works it creates this idea that it was always like this and hopes nobody asks any awkward questions.

I think you know this though, no?

Yes, very perceptive. Christianity spread by word of mouth as Paul traveled through Asia Minor and then on to Rome. It would be only natural for a hybrid to take place as Pagans rejected old altars and joined new small communities, maybe just one or two members of a family here and there. Pagan rituals persisted for a long time. Why just yesterday .....

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 12:00:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

The problem with that argument is that to pagans the symbol of a tree is worshipped as such and so it is an admission of what we know. However I doubt they decorated tress with gold and silver; not sure where they would get materials with such properties to do that during this, at best they would have dull metals.

Obviously I'm not an expert on ancient history but it's obviously not as clear cut as either side makes out.

Greeks, Romans, and Persians had gold and silver. Judas had thirty pieces of silver, recall. And Roman coins were minted in gold. Also King Midas whatever.....

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 12:04:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But Jesus is purported not to have been born on the 25th of December, too much in the Bible suggests it was at a different time of year, see ;

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/HH/jcnotborndec25.asp

why does it matter? For Christians, He was born, and we celebrate that birth on December 25th. Semantics are irrelevant.

I wonder why there is not more joy and gift giving at Easter since the essence of the religion is the gift of the redemption. Easter seems so solumn. You might wish to celebrate his going (death) rather than his coming (birth)

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 12:17:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Greeks, Romans, and Persians had gold and silver. Judas had thirty pieces of silver, recall. And Roman coins were minted in gold. Also King Midas whatever.....

True but it's really a questions of how prevalent such things would have been and what value the isolated pagan cultures of northern Europe would have put in such items.

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 2:03:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But Jesus is purported not to have been born on the 25th of December, too much in the Bible suggests it was at a different time of year, see ;

http://www.ucg.org/booklets/HH/jcnotborndec25.asp

why does it matter? For Christians, He was born, and we celebrate that birth on December 25th. Semantics are irrelevant.

I wonder why there is not more joy and gift giving at Easter since the essence of the religion is the gift of the redemption. Easter seems so solumn. You might wish to celebrate his going (death) rather than his coming (birth)

the tradition of gift giving for Christmas originated because each of the three wise men came bearing a gift.

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 5:22:52 PM

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It was also common during pagan festivals in December.

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 5:40:09 PM

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When Christianity came to Mexico they put local gods faces on Saints and every town and village still celebrates 'their' saints day. Then they converted every local holiday and celebration to a named 'christian' holiday. It wasn't just something they did to convert northern Europeans or Romans, it still is part of the strategy of conversion.

In the early days they stole stories and fables from Egypt, India, Buddhism and most everyone. It is sorta funny to hear people talk about virgin birth or rising from the dead being Christian concepts never seen before in human theology.

Most biblical scholars (if that is not an oxymoron) agree that according to the bible and what little history we have from the region, the census that caused Mary to return to Jerusalem was in the early fall, not mid winter.

Maybe a deeper question would be: Whats Christ like about Christianity?

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 6:16:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Hope you aren’t decorating a tree this year.

Jeremiah 10:2-4

This explanation might help...

Jeremiah 10 and Christmas Trees
Christians opposed to Christmas have often argued that Jeremiah condemns Christmas trees. They believe that Jeremiah 10:2-4 is quite plain — Christmas trees are sinful. But are these Christmas critics correct? Does Jeremiah 10:2-4 actually condemn the setting up of Christmas trees?

The King James Version reads: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." On the surface it does seem that Jeremiah is describing Christmas trees. But let's look deeper.

An important key to understanding any passage is to pay careful attention to its context. Verses 2 through 4 of Jeremiah 10 are part of a larger context. That larger context is verses 1 through 16. In these verses Jeremiah proclaims the Lord as the only God. "No one is like you, O Lord; you are great, and your name is mighty in power. Who should not revere you, O King of the nations? This is your due.... The Lord is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.... God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding" (verses 6-7, 10, 12, NIV).

The gods that pagans worship are nothing compared to the Lord. "These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens" (verse 11). They are mere images made by men and women. "Every goldsmith is shamed by his idols. His images are a fraud; they have no breath in them. They are worthless, the objects of mockery" (verses 14-15).

Gold is not the only substance used to make idols. Verses 8 and 9 speak of "worthless wooden idols" on which workmen place hammered silver and gold, and rich apparel. When we consider that these verses condemn idolatry, we can understand what Jeremiah meant when he said "the customs of the peoples are worthless" (verse 3). No wonder he tells us not to "learn the way of the nations" (verse 2).

Turning to translations other than the King James also helps our understanding. Where the King James reads "one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe" (verse 3), the New International Version says "they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel." The tool referred to in the passage is not a woodsman's tool, but that of a wood carver. Most modern English translations agree with the NIV.

Jeremiah is not condemning Christmas trees. He is condemning idolatry. The trees in Jeremiah 10 are cut down to carve them into worthless idols that will later be decorated with gold and silver. Jeremiah says nothing about Christmas trees. That custom originated in northern Europe, not in ancient Palestine.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/holidays/trees.htm

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 6:36:59 PM

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Pretty much nothing. The birth of Jesus is only mentioned in passing in most homes, its only in really devout families that he gets even a passing mention. Nobody goes caroling anymore (to worried somebody will call the cops and report them for creating a disturbance), and if they do sing carols they usually keep away from the overtly Christian ones (which are the best carols, btw).
I have to admit that I am guilty of this, but I am not a Christian, and I only engage in those Christmas activities that are required for my kids (their mother goes overboard with the whole thing (barring any mention of Jesus....100% missing from their Christmas).

Personally I would prefer to do absolutely nothing on the 25th, I am not a follower of Jesus and really have no business celebrating his birth, and the rest of it really leaves me cold (and to be honest a little revolted). When my youngest gets a little older I will simply opt out of Christmas altogether, though I will miss the turkey dinner, but as Ian Anderson so aptly pointed out: "The Christmas spirit is not what you drink."

God rest you merry, gentlemen (and ladies)

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RE: What's Christian about Christmas ? - 12/19/2009 6:45:48 PM

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ALL:::

I was in Turkey..representing CA at a peace conference..I was asked to do an aboriginal ceremony..the 4 Directions..
As I called in the 4 directsions with song.. on a hill in Catal Hoyuk..the prayer caller began to call from high in the the zugarret..

AS he called Muslims to prayer while I sang.. ..I did not know what to do.
Continue my spiritual ceremony? Stop? Risk offending?

Muslims dropped back from our circle to kneel..where 14 other countries stood..
and I sang and thee call to prayer continued high in tower.

ALL looked to the mayor-leader-oraganizer of the town for guidance..I did too
.
He signalled them to rise and me to continue to sing MY song and continue,,
When we were done he came to me and said

"UNITY TRANCENDS religion."
.
I shall never never forget that..
THAT IS Christmas too or it can be..

Peace and good will to any and all religions or sprituality ..

It does not matter the date Jesus was born but that HE WAS...who has a tree and why...
if lights are about a star or illumination...if the STAR IS GODDESS

Christmas does not BELONG to anyone and yet to everyone if they so desire.

Christianity absorbed and incorperated symbols into their systems and brougth their own..witchs contributed.. modified and used some..pagans and heathens and on and on.

IT IS ABOUT INTENT..

peace be with you
pay in forward

GM

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