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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 12:00:13 PM   
Hiskajirah


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Greetings zeph

Don't think there should be a choice. Don't think love itself causes the weakness either, think if weakness already exists that then the love can crumble it.


Well wishes,
~twinkle


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 1:13:09 PM   
Louve00


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Ok.  I'm going to put myself out here on a limb and try to relay this the way I understood it when I read it in the books.  I have to remind everyone that I'm not Gorean and I've never been a slave.  But, I have read the books (well, most of them, I haven't read the last two, and probably won't read the latest...Kur of Gor...that just came out).  But please don't come running after me, informing me that I've never been a slave and have never been mastered so can't possibly understand.  I have a pretty high reading comprehension level (when I'm paying attention to what I'm reading, that is! lol) So here goes....

I think the reason a love slave is held in a deeper, more startling slavery than most girls would be held in is because she is indeed loved.  And because she is loved, her Master may not want to deny her wants and wishes because he loves her.  If that would be the case, and he did cave in to her wants and whims, then indeed the mastery would weaken because (ta-daa) he now gives into her.  We all know how easy it is to give into a loved one....to do something because you love someone.  It goes especially to women who feel a depth...a depth of servitude if you will...of gratefulness to their man or their master because he does give in to them.  But...what if there is something she really, really, really wants and her master doesn't want to give into that particular wish, then what?  Goreans do not compromise with their slaves. Its hard to back-pedal, by that point.  So, if he gives in to her, not really wanting to, I would imagine he would (in a sense) feel weakened and not in total control of the relationship.  I would also imagine, over time, both master and slave would feel that power shift and as a result, neither would be happy, and both may actually despise what they've become and each other, for it.

So, in reading the books of Gor, I walked away with the feeling that a man who loved his slave had to keep himself stronger than strong...to almost defend himself from his love of his slave, from giving into her wants....so as not to inadvertantly tip those scales in favor of the slave.  I would imagine it would be very hard indeed to stay strong and firm and unveering...and the girls slavery had to be deep and unrelentless to ensure she was in fact being kept in her place. 

I could probably expound more on that, but it would just be my own personal conclusions.  Not necessarily the ones Norman was trying to outline.  And since I'm not Gorean and not a slave (and not a slave owner, either), I doubt it would be a very valid account.

**Editted to add, this is the way I understood it from the books.  It in no way reflects how it can or should play out in real life.  That would be up to the individuals.  I do realize that my explanation is an explaining how "I" comprehended the intention in the books.  Whether or not people change that when they live it all out in real life, I don't know and its not for me to say.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 12/20/2009 1:20:28 PM >


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 2:02:14 PM   
alittleevil


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

ORIGINAL: twinkle
I have a hard time believing those that say... I don't want love, I don't need love, I rather have his mastery...


See that's what I'm thinking....why does it have to be a choice, love OR mastery?


Greetings zephyr and twinkle,

When i say i would rather have mastery than love, i don't mean mean it as a choice that must be made, i mean it as if a choice had to be made. And i would rather have a man's mastery than his love IF i had to choose one.  But, perhaps i am using too much shorthand, in my experience mastery comes complete with intimacy and a certain degree of affectionate regard.  Even lacking "in love-ness", it is not cold or impersonal. 

At this time, i know that Master is fond of me. He feels affection for me,  and wishes for me to be content and happy. In short, he loves me.  I have no idea if he has ever felt "romantic" love for me. I am inclined to doubt it, but in any case, i wouldn't know.  His most intimate feelings are his own, and that's just him, not any expectation i would hold of any man who is a master of a slave.  But i feel secure that as long as i please him, as long as he finds me useful and an enhancement, he will keep me. As his slave who adores him. Romantic love is quite unnecessary to me at this point in my life.

Best,
aj

< Message edited by alittleevil -- 12/20/2009 2:04:46 PM >


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 2:35:50 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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Greetings aj,

quote:

When i say i would rather have mastery than love, i don't mean mean it as a choice that must be made, i mean it as if a choice had to be made. And i would rather have a man's mastery than his love IF i had to choose one. But, perhaps i am using too much shorthand, in my experience mastery comes complete with intimacy, affection and a certain degree of regard. Even lacking "in love-ness", it is not cold or impersonal.


I agree with you wholeheartedly, if I had to make a choice I would choose mastery over love. Funny though, how an absence of love equates absence of affection in peoples' minds; I don't see it that way at all, as you say, mastery does come with affection, intimacy, etc, it's just the romantic love aspect that isn't there.

In any case, it's an individual thing, a relationship works based on what works.

I wish you well,

zeph


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 2:47:29 PM   
XaviersXian


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Hello everyone,

I just finished a quick read-through of this thread.  From what I'm seeing, the general opinion on a Master loving his slave is that it undoes his Mastery.  When I served my husband, he was very loving, and very accomodating (something I needed to thrive as a slave) but it was seen (by both of us) as my personal obligation as his slave to not let that love become a means to manipulating him.  When I had a chain sister, my husband had that same expectation of her.  We were his slaves, he loved us, and because he loved us, we honoured him as we saw we should, though Lord forbid if we ever even thought about taking advantage of our situation.

In my opinion, if love comes into the dynamic, the slave *does* have a responsibility to not take advantage of that love; she has an ethical obligation to see the fortunate situation she is in.  I don't believe that the "I am just a slave, I have no choice, therefore I am not going to control myself" mindset is a correct way of thinking.  It is possible to be a perfectly obedient slave to a soft/loving/relaxed/insert other "unusual" trait here Master and have the mental control needed to not manipulate the position you are put in.

Of course, this is just my two cents.  I'm sure that others see things differently.

I wish you well.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 3:15:27 PM   
Hiskajirah


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Greetings aj

Thank you for sharing. This makes much more sense than "needing no love at all". There is something there and it's enough for the both of you. I've always found you to be a beautiful slave and very much devoted. You adore him and the intimacy and or affectionate regard is present. I can very much understand this. As for the romantic difference I can better understand this now also. I mentioned earlier about mushy.. I'm loved, and I love, but not mushy love. I would not want this kind. Not the lovey dovey, all over me, boyish crush kind of thing.

Thank you for replying
~twinkle


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"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 3:42:05 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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Greetings Mistress Xian,

Now that's food for thought, the idea of the slave taking responsibility by not taking advantage of her Master's love for her.

Thank you for mentioning your experience.

I wish you well,

zeph


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 6:12:19 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hiskajirah

Greetings zeph

This is why even though I'm fairly well versed in the books and understand the meaning behind them, we live by what is realistic. The institution of marriage didn't exist in the books. A man doesn't marry his slave. They can be free companions. We're certainly not going to get divorced to fit this. He is my Master and I am his slave. I cannot say I've always been mastered, but I can say I've always been property. Back in the day it was by marriage that a woman became the property of man.

Master AnimusRex said "I can only speak from my own life experience- but I believe that love can be the engine that drives a level of servitude that goes deeper, further, to more extremes than any kink"

And I couldn't agree more. I have a hard time believing those that say... I don't want love, I don't need love, I rather have his mastery...   

Everyone yearns to feel love.

It takes finding the right master and the man finding the right slave. All females manipulate to a point. We got Adam to bite that apple didn't we? Come're baby, look at this.. ? Doesn't it look yummy..? She probably enticed him, teased his lips with it's juices..even thought he already said NO..  he submitted and ate.

And men, sometimes they do things similar even still..  it doesn't always mean their union is headed for doom.. but it does mean he can't keep allowing it or it will become doomed.

I mean.. I've gotten something a time or two after sucking his yum yum like a golf ball out of a garden hose...

Does that mean I manipulated him? ~laughs

Warm wishes,
~twinkle





Greetings beautiful twinkle ;)

I know as a non-Gorean I always risk criticism by posting here but hopefully I can convey this correctly. I admit when I first came here I didn't always express myself with respect or understanding to the Gorean ethos and for that I apologize, but isn't it said that when you know better you do better? of course I paraphrase..

I think Zeph's question and her thoughts on it are quite correct and I also love what you and AnimusRex have said. I couldn't be mastered and obedient and especially compelled to please him as I do if I were not so loved and in love. It is his love that is the catalyst to drive me to want to please him in every way possible, sexually, of course, but I am much more than a "pleasure" slave. I work in his business, and I work very hard for him in that capacity. I cater to his every need and desire, and his love for me is in no way something that I use to maniplate him. Of course he loves having a beautiful girl at his feet in the evening, or bringing him coffee in the morning, or cleaning his home or whatever else I anticipate he may desire, but I don't understand the idea that his love for me weakens his Mastery of me.

I am sure for some men that can't be as strict and punitive as needed if they are blinded by love for their slaves, but that is not my experience. I believe it is quite possible to love your possession and still wield the whip and hold the reigns firmly, if the man himself is in control of his dominance and position. When I dissapoint him I am quickly and firmly corrected, and it isn't pleasant. I don't beleive in the whole "funishment" thing, if he wants to beat me he just does so, and if I err, he quickly reminds me of my place, and my tears mean nothing at  that time. He also holds me close, loves me, and treats me like a treasured possession. He doesn't however ever let me forget my place, nor do I want to. Do I manipulate him? I don't know, I mean I know that if he had a bad day or if he is stressed out I love to put on a super sexy lingerie outfit and prepare a wonderful meal in the nude with heels on and cajole him out of it, if that is maipulation, he seems to not mind it.

Love and mastery can indeed go hand in hand and enhance a relationship for this couple anyway.

Thanks Zeph for a great discussion and I hope that I expressed my thoughts concisely here. I wish you all well~

Aynne


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 6:36:18 PM   
Cherylmazana


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I think the problem here is that people take the idea of not loving your slave as literal when it is not.

The books often use satire and sarcasm the opposite of what they really mean, so “rape” becomes a woman begging for sex for example as a dig against feminists. When you take that further, slaves are property. Why would you love property?

Men on the whole fall in love with the woman they live with especially if they are having a sexual relationship with her, but how can you love property? So the cliché emerges that a man cannot love a slave as it weakens him, yet the books clearly show men in love and sometimes even besotted by their slaves thus the conflict between what is shown and what is said.

Love can weaken a man and yet it can also strengthen a man, but if society shows that this type of love is somehow wrong …well the Gorean books are used to show fallacies in many different ways, to point out that what society shows as gospel is sometimes simply given lip service and nothing more. And its not always Earth society that is on the receiving end of “wrongness in a society”.

Cheryl

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 7:09:42 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


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Hi zeph,

A couple of thoughts...

One is that prior to my Master I was in a relationship with a dominant whom I loved. It was a relationship that was not good for me, one in which I floundered in lack of mastery, and that it took me about a year to recover emotionally from. It was at the demise of that relationship that I met my Master. I was still in love with the man I had been with for a year and a half, yet within two weeks I was wearing my Master's collar. The mastery definitely came first. It was far too early for me to be in love with him and I was still in love with the man from the previous relationship. Prior to this I thought that I needed love to be a slave. It was this that convinced me that I can be mastered without love. Love did indeed grow, but it grew out of that mastery.

As regards the idea of love weakening mastery... I think people are either manipulative or they are not, or able to be manipulated or not. I don't think whether they are in love makes a lot of difference. I mean, I've encountered manipulative women and they seemed to do it without having to be loved necessarily. I've met men who can be manipulated- and I run the other way! In a way it's like with parents... you see parents who allow children to manipulate them and you see parents who don't- yet I assume both sets love their children.

Still trying to get my mind around the idea of maintaining the responsibility to not be manipulative... and I'm leaning towards the idea of that being too self-determining to work with a slave... I would think it would be more of a response to the man that you wouldn't want to try to manipulate him, rather than because a girl was trying to in effect master herself into not being manipulative... but I'm still turning this over in my head.

Well wishes,

anna

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 9:58:50 PM   
estah


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Greetings,

There is always intimacy in this sort of relationship for without it the chances of success are small. And that a male knows every inch of his property as stated in the book is reflected many times over in the relationships several girls here on the forum have with their owners. At no point did verity say there has to be a choice, what was stated is if she had to chose between the two she would prefer one to the other, the optimal relationship would be one with love, but the love aspect is not a needed aspect. This slave's experience until now are that she does not need love in a Master/slave relationship. Perhaps that will change with age, perhaps not. Each of us have different needs and wants.

verity does not need love in a Master/slave relationship to be fulfilled and happy, but she does need love in her life. That she has through her children, through family and friends. By stating that verity does not need love this slave was speaking directly to the situation mention by zeph.


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/20/2009 11:36:12 PM   
Malkinius


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{fast reply}

Tal and greetings all....

One quick comment. Love strengthens the bond between two people. This is, overall, a good thing. It does nothing to the bond of mastery and submission. When the bond of love is stronger than the bond of mastery is when the owner loses control over their property. It may be a slow loss and it can certainly be reversed but unchecked it is inevitable.

Be well....

Malkinius


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 5:58:36 AM   
mnottertail


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Glaedilig Jule All (early here to see the solstice, by the one-eyed God!!!!!!)

And I would like to revisit one thought, because the girls actually seem to have this concept abaft the beam. It isn't a matter of love OR mastery as it is beginning to be couched.

The admonition is that love of a slave has to be closely managed, in that one does not make emotional or relationship decisions when one should be making property management and householding decisions. That is more the size of it. You can love property, I love the shit out of my 1938 B Allis Chalmers and have alot more time and money into it compared to its intrinsic value. Just because the sharp morning's hoary breath makes it weep with despair and moan with the sloth of sleep when I crank the fucking thing over to haul bales. (well, I can't let that affect me, and say ok, you get the day off Allis the pillow princess) the cows still need fed. The emotion of the instant cannot overrule the overarching course of life.

Is that a good enough video running in your mind?


Hup

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 6:43:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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Hey Ron...

First Bull's Tractor Epiphany, now you cranking Allis to tote that bale to attend to the (other) livestock...

Gor may have lots of conditions we're not gonna see on Earth, but damn it, we've got John Deere dealers!

Like the end of the Magnificent Seven...."the farmers always win."

Interesting thread!

Live well,

Tim


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 2:02:20 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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Greetings Master Ron,

I get what you are saying, I really do and that's what I was trying to get across. There really isn't a need to choose between mastery and love and I couldn't understand why some had the idea that it is.

I wonder, do you chain it to the foot of your bed at night? Ummm if there are...rewards....I'm not sure I want to know.

I wish you well,

zeph


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 2:16:37 PM   
Elisabella


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-FR-

I'm not quite sure why this seems so controversial - obviously I don't personally 'get it' for myself, but it just seems like a preference.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong Zeph and AJ but if I'm reading you right you're not saying you're not interested in love, but if you had two men interested in you and one of them loved you but had no desire to master you, and the other wanted to master you and was able to do so, and he'd be affectionate but he'd never feel actual love for you, you'd be more interested in pursuing something with the second man. Yes?

For many of us (myself included) love is one of those things that we can't possibly see ourselves in a relationship if it's not there - I personally look at someone like, say, a Russian bride whose primary motive for marriage is a better life rather than true love, and I can't understand how she can stand it. But I'm guessing from your posts that the way I view love is the way you view mastery, that you can't imagine *yourself* loving a man who wasn't able to master you.

Of course I could have read this all wrong so if that's the case please let me know.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 2:21:06 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

Please do correct me if I'm wrong Zeph and AJ but if I'm reading you right you're not saying you're not interested in love, but if you had two men interested in you and one of them loved you but had no desire to master you, and the other wanted to master you and was able to do so, and he'd be affectionate but he'd never feel actual love for you, you'd be more interested in pursuing something with the second man. Yes?


Hi Bella,

Speaking for myself, yes that's exactly right.....if I had to make a choice. Of course I'd rather have both greedy bitch that I am. *grins*

I've tried love without mastery and it never worked; I just need the man to take control or I run amok it's just the way I'm wired.

Love to you and Master Six,

zeph


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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 4:02:11 PM   
XaviersXian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Still trying to get my mind around the idea of maintaining the responsibility to not be manipulative... and I'm leaning towards the idea of that being too self-determining to work with a slave... I would think it would be more of a response to the man that you wouldn't want to try to manipulate him, rather than because a girl was trying to in effect master herself into not being manipulative... but I'm still turning this over in my head.

Well wishes,

anna


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Greetings Mistress Xian,

Now that's food for thought, the idea of the slave taking responsibility by not taking advantage of her Master's love for her.

Thank you for mentioning your experience.

I wish you well,

zeph

 

Hello everyone,

hi ladies,

This behaviour was something that my husband requested of both of us as his slaves, so we were carrying out his wishes.  To my understanding, it would have come under the Gorean sense of "self determining" (or any slavery related philosophy's definition of independence, for that matter) if we were independently taking it upon ourselves, without his permission, to act that way, without him expressly asking for it.  We weren't, he'd asked for it.

On a slightly different track, the way I personally see things is that, regardless of which Master/slave philosophy you follow, a person who serves another is not a child and should not be treated like one; they have been through the maturation process and are fully socialised.  A mature adult should understand things such as consequences of their actions, and the proper way to behave around others.

Slave or not, an adult can always, ultimately, exercise personal control and the power to make decisions.  I feel that being a slave does not excuse a person from the responsibilities of adulthood.

I hope this helps to clarify things for you both (if not, please, let me know!)

I wish you well.

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 4:15:23 PM   
ElizabethAnne


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Hello Folks,

I have seen many relationships deteriorate when the man loves the slave too much, and the mastery disappears.   Things are overlooked, (behavior, tone, ect), and it's not exactly like the slave wakes up one day and says - "This is the day I will manipulate my Master".   It really doesn't happen like that, it's the anaology of a frog in a kettle.   Put a frog in boiling hot water, the frog jumps out, put a frog in nice tepid water, and slowly ever so slowly turn up the heat.  The frog will boil to death.

CAN it be done - a man loving, being in love, etc, with his slave?  Yes of course.  But it takes due diligence on the part of the man to keep an even keel with his mastery of his slave.  NOT the woman - the MAN determines the slavery not the woman.  And as long as he KEEPS her in 'excellent mastery", ie, holding her accountable and responsible for her actions, making sure she is NOT self determining for herself AND for him.  It CAN work.  Difficult, but it can be done.  All too often "I" have seen the opposite happen.  The man "falls in love' with his slave, the slave then has the ablibity to lead him around....and eventually she does.    I think we have seen it happen here as well.

Elizabeth

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RE: Of love and mastery of a slave - 12/21/2009 5:16:36 PM   
AlwaysLisa


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quote:

It really doesn't happen like that, it's the anaology of a frog in a kettle.   Put a frog in boiling hot water, the frog jumps out, put a frog in nice tepid water, and slowly ever so slowly turn up the heat.  The frog will boil to death.


Vivid picture, eww.   

Nice analogy, but it will be some time before I can boil anything.

Back to the discussion...

Lisa

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