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reason and the fair point - 1/6/2010 8:56:24 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'm sure it isnt just me that notices this; the obstinate refusal to acknowledge that any fair point, reached by sound reasoning and/or supported by evidence, made by an opponent in a thread is any such thing.

There are very few not guilty of this I find, alongside a majority who are culpable from time to time and a sizeable minority who, as it would seem, refuse to acknowledge anything that dents their stated positions.

If this is how it works on a politics board that is to be honest an off topic board for the host website, how much more is it observable in those pursuing politics as a career - and how much does it influence and effect the oft cited political polarisation of the US?

I believe that when sane debate becomes impossible through such refusal to acknowledge any weakness in a position, it must lead to polarisation and so damage the ability of the people to reach any sane judgment and decision on matters, with commensurate damage to their collective interests.

Thoughts?

E

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/6/2010 9:29:56 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Do you recall your "Palin Positives" thread, LadyE?

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/6/2010 9:40:32 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		That was a bit of fun to rile you all up m'dear; it was great fun - and worked purely because of the phenomenon in the OP; "my side, for right or wrong".

E

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/6/2010 9:41:33 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		It so happens that people differ and since each person has his own truth per force individual truths differ as well.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/6/2010 9:45:59 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Lady E, what happened, "global warmers" rough you up?

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/6/2010 9:49:33 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Tom, I have no idea what youre talking about; a little explanation might go a long way

E

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 12:51:21 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		Aha!  you mean the cobookie dance!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki_dance

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 3:27:56 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"There are very few not guilty of this I find, alongside a majority who are culpable from time to time and a sizeable minority who, as it would seem, refuse to acknowledge anything that dents their stated positions. "

Just curious as to where I fall within those real(ms). I don't know if my comments would fall right in this forum, as they are personal in nature. But suffice it to say for now that I have refused to arbitrate a conflct involving friends, and have become prejudiced against the one I've known longer. Tricky but handlable. One thing I am insisting on is hard evidence, and that is probably not so forthcoming, most of the BS is due to conflicting attitudes, and I think at this age they should be past that.

But due to the fact that this conflict has to do with only one or two minutes on a cellphone, if I am pressed to judge prematurely I will tell them to call the police, they both have warrants and that will solve that. I shall not arbitrate until I am ready. I don't need to ask where they fall in these categories. (hell I might never be ready)

If you are asking in a purely political sense, sorry to bother you.

T

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 4:05:29 AM   
housesub4you


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quote:

One thing I am insisting on is hard evidence, and that is probably not so forthcoming,


I find this an interesting statement, there are many who when presented with "facts" they say the messenger is tainted because it can only be true if it comes from their stated sources.

Not directed at you Term, just the point you make about evidence seems to change with the wind, their are people here who when someone makes a statement scream for links to prove their point, then when people put links up showing data to support a position, the same people cry "all you do is post links" they never address the data, they just keep switching the topic until it gets so buried in BS the original point is lost, then they move on to something else thereby never having to address an issue or point that challenges their own

These boards have become so polarized that when something is posted, if you have been here for awhile you know who will and will not support it, nothing ever changes, sadly much like the real world of politics, keep the masses confused and arguing over small shit and nothing changes

If you look at the big picture on a lot of issues, their is common ground, it's just people get lost in the details and then nothing can move forward and the status quo remains and we all get screwed in the long run

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 4:09:07 AM   
eyesopened


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Status: offline 		It's been my observation that a very large number of people would much rather be right than happy.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 4:10:07 AM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		ain't that the truth, even if they are right only in their own eyes

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 11:23:30 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		I find this pretty common in politics, especially so in the usa (yes that is racist, tough :p )....I suspect it's an effect of the polarised black&white outlook, not a cause. I mostly think it's the presidential thing.....a system that ends up with just two individuals to realistically vote for is bad enough, but the selection by separate parties in the usa means they aren't cuddling up to the middle ground of the nation, they're cuddling up to the middle ground of their respective 'side'. I find it best to either ignore (the vast vast majority of) americans on political topics, or discuss issues which don't fit into either side....which is tricky, as everything is crammed in there.


There doesn't seem to be anything ya can do about it sadly.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 11:31:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I find this pretty common in politics, especially so in the usa (yes that is racist, tough :p )....I suspect it's an effect of the polarised black&white outlook, not a cause. I mostly think it's the presidential thing.....a system that ends up with just two individuals to realistically vote for is bad enough, but the selection by separate parties in the usa means they aren't cuddling up to the middle ground of the nation, they're cuddling up to the middle ground of their respective 'side'. I find it best to either ignore (the vast vast majority of) americans on political topics, or discuss issues which don't fit into either side....which is tricky, as everything is crammed in there.


There doesn't seem to be anything ya can do about it sadly.


There is a middle group in US politics, Woody, and they shift from center left to center right. Their votes are always up for grabs. Often their votes go against the side which is being most despicable at the moment.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 11:39:37 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		I know, but I still don't find many reasonable americans when it comes to politics. I'm a bit of a political bore so probably see it/percieve it more than most, but it really is painfully similar to talking to a paper with a selection of typings on it. It's just a very different political culture.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 11:44:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I know, but I still don't find many reasonable americans when it comes to politics. I'm a bit of a political bore so probably see it/percieve it more than most, but it really is painfully similar to talking to a paper with a selection of typings on it. It's just a very different political culture.


Reasonable? OMG, you want reasonable? We wouldn't be able to handle reasonable. US politics are extremely visceral and passionate. Isn't it so in the UK? The divisions are often more obscure than simple parties and local interests. Much to do with levels of education, economics and even religion I think.

And @ LE, the "fair point" is very hard to find in US politics. Emotions rule.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/7/2010 11:46:44 AM >

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 12:31:23 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		Yeah, I think I explained myself poorly. I think a main cause of it is the presidential election system, but not saying that people are therefore divided up neatly into democrats/republicans, just on specific views....well hell, try getting an american to admit they were wrong about anything political.

So in the UK? Not really...there are the so called tribal voters (though I suspect not that many, find the term misused IMO), and a lot of very low politics...but there isn't the.....americaness, the stubborness of viewpoint. Even hardcore tories, are (generally) not still arguing against minimum wage, it works...they were wrong, people who were dead against it at the time are now willing to admit they were wrong. You can just tell a lot of the time online when you're talking to an american...there's a lack of reasoning. It's more like a selection of quotes of things they've heard than a debate. I realise this may be offensive, but hard to avoid with the topic at hand.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 2:32:03 PM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		I agree! Sometimes we are crazy as hell and argue past each other with bumper sticker slogans. Very tribal and angry. No guns at the polls however. Not lately.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/7/2010 2:36:40 PM >

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 2:39:57 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I can honestly say that I have when faced with good evidence against a position I have been arguing I will say I was wrong...Now I may say I MAY have been wrong...but that is close enough.

My experience when I have someone nailed they change the subject trying to argue a different point.

Some people take time to change their minds... Don't think because they will not admit you were right they will not or have not changed their minds. They just find it hard to admit it. So just argue the truth and don’t worry if they agree with you.

Butch

Damn once again this post was meant for LadyEllen..sorry vince

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/7/2010 2:42:00 PM >

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 2:53:42 PM   
LillyoftheVally


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
So just argue the truth and don’t worry if they agree with you.



Problem is very rarely is it about truth and fiction, instead it is about opinion dressed as fact.

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RE: reason and the fair point - 1/7/2010 3:43:59 PM   
housesub4you


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quote:

So just argue the truth and don’t worry if they agree with you.


You realize of course that we are talking about American politics, do you know how hard it is to find the truth in politicians,

It's hard enough just to get them to somewhat answer a question with something more than a vague thought, so they can deny it later or say No that is not what I meant


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