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Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 8:33:40 AM   
Sanity


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Hugo Chaves is destroying the Venezuelan economy in a desperate effort to hold on to power, and there are many lessons here for the rest of the world - and especially for the United States.

The news out of Venezuela:


quote:

Devaluation ups stakes in Venezuela election year

* Chavez popularity could suffer after devaluation

* Venezuelans rush to shops anticipating price hikes

* Inflation will jump this year (Recasts with color, adds details, background)

CARACAS, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Venezuelans rushed to the shops on Saturday, fearful of price rises after a currency devaluation that will let President Hugo Chavez boost government spending ahead of an election but feeds opposition charges of economic mismanagement.

In a bid to jump-start the recession-hit economy of South America's top oil exporter, Chavez on Friday announced a dual system for the fixed rate bolivar.

It devalues the currency to 4.3 and 2.6 against the dollar, from a rate of 2.15 per dollar in place since 2005, giving the better rate for basic goods in an attempt to limit the impact of the measure on consumer prices.

The opposition seized on fears that prices for imported goods will double as shoppers formed lines of more than a hundred people outside some stores in the capital Caracas.

"It was a Black Friday, tinted red," said sales executive Diana Sevillana in reference to the crimson color of Chavez's socialist party. She stood in a line of 30 people outside an electrical goods store in a middle class neighborhood.

The socialist Chavez believes the state should have a weighty role in managing the economy. During his 11 years in office he has nationalized most heavy industry, and business and finance are tightly regulated.

The devaluation is politically risky but means every dollar of oil revenue puts more bolivars in government coffers. That allows Chavez to lavish cash on social projects and fund salary increases ahead of parliamentary elections in September.

Opponents were quick to criticize the socialist, who a year ago promised the global financial crisis would not touch "a hair" of Venezuela's economy. He announced the devaluation on Friday night during an important baseball game.


Full article at:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN096521320100109




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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 8:38:35 AM   
Real0ne


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ok but whats different from the way business is done right here?

He socked the rich in the jaw

unlike Iran in the 50's the people forced out the cia coup.

He has done a lot for the very poorest in his country and is a real thorn in the side of big oil.








< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/10/2010 8:40:59 AM >

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 8:42:22 AM   
Sanity


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What he's given the poor there is a sugar high, and thats coming to an end here, real soon.


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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 8:42:45 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		He made the announcement during a baseball game?  Interesting timing.  Probably some great follow-up questions from the sports guys...

Nice pic, btw.

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 8:44:52 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		It's a shame, really.  I like the aims of socialism.  But it's been an abject failure when implemented in Argentina, Cuba, Russia...

There are two drawbacks as I see it. 
1. The profit motive is not used, which takes a lot of drive out of the economy.
2. A strong central government is necessary.  So you have bureaucrats who don't give a crap about the economy and the welfare of the people, who are granted the power to stifle economic growth.

'Course, that's not particularly relevant here because Chavez could ruin a strong capitalist economy too.  He's a strongman/buffoon.


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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 8:58:17 AM   
Sanity


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That's the mountain howitzer that the Nez Perce captured from the cavalry at the infamous battle at Big Hole in Montana. The cavalry fought like hell to take that canon up a steep hill side and through thick woods, then managed to get off only two shots with it before their position was overrun by Nez Perce warriors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

He made the announcement during a baseball game?  Interesting timing.  Probably some great follow-up questions from the sports guys...

Nice pic, btw.


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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:01:38 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

It's a shame, really.  I like the aims of socialism.  But it's been an abject failure when implemented in Argentina, Cuba, Russia...

There are two drawbacks as I see it. 
1. The profit motive is not used, which takes a lot of drive out of the economy.
2. A strong central government is necessary.  So you have bureaucrats who don't give a crap about the economy and the welfare of the people, who are granted the power to stifle economic growth.

'Course, that's not particularly relevant here because Chavez could ruin a strong capitalist economy too. He's a strongman/buffoon.


I agree with you on the apparent buffoonery of Chavez. At least, that comes across to us through our media (whom we trust without question)

But there is a long seething underlying issue in Venezuela as there is in many other Latin American countries. That is the issue of racial oppression against the indigenous population. It is for that reason that Chavez is strongly supported by the poverty stricken Indios in his country. I have read there is a long history of political and economic power concentrated among white Hispanics who trace their roots back to Spain and the Conquistadors and are supported by U.S. Corporations. The situation was pretty much the root cause of Castro's triumph in Cuba and the revolution attempts in Mexico's Chiappas State. I do not believe it is a simple case of socialism vs capitalism but perhaps one of long standing racial economic oppression.

I have no data or links to support my opinion. Perhaps there are other posters who can elaborate of refute what I have written. I am willing to learn.

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:16:01 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		You're on the mark, Vince.  There were two very different approaches in the European expansion into the Americas.  In what became the US and Canada, the natives were largely exterminated and replaced by new arrivals to the "empty" continent.  To the south, they were enslaved (yes, this is hyper-simplified.  Like Vince, I'm willing to listen). 

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:18:21 AM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		That the Venezuelan economy is suffering recently hardly seems good reason to attack either socialism or Chavez.

Indeed, according to the article the shrink down there was only 2.9% in 09.....which is a very good performance compared to many nations. Blackouts and water shortages are really poor though...

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:21:10 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You're on the mark, Vince.  There were two very different approaches in the European expansion into the Americas.  In what became the US and Canada, the natives were largely exterminated and replaced by new arrivals to the "empty" continent.  To the south, they were enslaved (yes, this is hyper-simplified.  Like Vince, I'm willing to listen). 


yes the law of conquest...  he who has the biggest guns.

The corporatization of the western world.

chavez like many others are fully aware of US and Britains imperalst tactics and how it creates filthy rich on one side of town and poverty on the other.








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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:22:31 AM   
Sanity


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Reuters is a European news service whose articles are often very sympathetic to socialist causes. 

As to your charge that Chavez is using racism (etc.) as a wedge, I wouldn't doubt that at all, such divide-and-conquer strategies are quite common among power hungry socialist elites such as Hugo Chavez.





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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:27:23 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

That the Venezuelan economy is suffering recently hardly seems good reason to attack either socialism or Chavez.

Indeed, according to the article the shrink down there was only 2.9% in 09.....which is a very good performance compared to many nations. Blackouts and water shortages are really poor though...


Of course, Chavez had a heavy bet on the Oil industry. In 2007 he was our 5th supplier. Apparently, like so many others he did not diversify when he had the opportunity.

I understand that he did do quite a lot for the healthcare of los indios. Again, no data. Sorry.

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:28:49 AM   
Sanity


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An all-powerful government is far worse for a population than a bevy of corporations which exist under the rule of law. Not only is such a government the corporation, but it is also the law.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

yes the law of conquest...  he who has the biggest guns.

The corporatization of the western world.

chavez like many others are fully aware of US and Britains imperalst tactics and how it creates filthy rich on one side of town and poverty on the other.









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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:31:24 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Reuters is a European news service whose articles are often very sympathetic to socialist causes. 

As to your charge that Chavez is using racism (etc.) as a wedge, I wouldn't doubt that at all, such divide-and-conquer strategies are quite common among power hungry socialist elites such as Hugo Chavez.






Ahhh, divide and conquer was not unheard of for capitalism?

Take a close look at Chavez' facial features. Clearly to me he appears to be of indigenous stock, so it is possible he started out genuinely sympathetic to his own.

We in the West are so dismissive of the indigenous populations and only notice them when they are mowing our lawns and cutting our hedges.

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:34:15 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


An all-powerful government is far worse for a population than a bevy of corporations which exist under the rule of law. Not only is such a government the corporation, but it is also the law.
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

yes the law of conquest...  he who has the biggest guns.

The corporatization of the western world.

chavez like many others are fully aware of US and Britains imperalst tactics and how it creates filthy rich on one side of town and poverty on the other.




As it happens sometimes the government is captured by the corporations. Our own case (USA) may be an example. In which case the Rule of Law becomes myth.

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 9:53:29 AM   
Sanity


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I really don't know if you can pinpoint Chavez's racial background so neatly by his facial features, that seems a little... far fetched to me. And are you suggesting that indigenous people aren't intelligent enough to get better jobs than as servants? In a capitalist system anyone can get ahead, vincent.

And if corporations really are running Obama's White House and Reid's Senate and Pelosi's House, we still have the power to vote them out of office, don't we. At this point all we need to do is wise up. But the way Chavez is headed, the people of Venezuela will be owned by one company store, with one individual sitting at the top.

Which is what you often see in such a situation as this.

You know that he's outlawing opposition media outlets, don't you?







< Message edited by Sanity -- 1/10/2010 10:09:23 AM >

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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 10:18:34 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I really don't know if you can pinpoint Chavez's racial background so neatly by his facial features, that seems a little... far fetched to me. And are you suggesting that indigenous people aren't intelligent enough to get better jobs than as servants? In a capitalist system anyone can get ahead, vincent.

And if corporations really are running Obama's White House and Reid's Senate and Pelosi's House, we still have the power to vote them out of office, don't we. At this point all we need to do is wise up. But the way Chavez is headed, the people of Venezuela will be owned by one company store, with one individual sitting at the top.

Which is what you often see in such a situation as this.

You know that he's outlawing opposition media outlets, don't you?





the problem is several fold....

If you vote bill gates out of microsoft the venue and forum is already set in concrete.

All that really takes place is a changing of the guard.

man can die, corporations live forever.

One of the biggest problems and I brought this up in another post that if you go on dunn and bradstreet you can see that every part of government is a corporation.

The states, cities, fed, judicial, all of them...  all corps, all listed and traded on wall street.

So when we vote out leftee and put in rightee we have changed nothing but the rhetoric.

We vote in 3rd party they get in and either go with the wheel or under it.

The judicial throughout the whole country is under the APA...

There is no separation in powers....

Keep in mind in 1938 we went from a republic to a democracy in that we had public law prior and public policy after.

therein lies the problem....  democracy vs republic.





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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 10:34:53 AM   
Sanity


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Bill Gates doesn't own the United States, especially not the same way that Hugo Chavez is taking ownership of Venezuela. Bill Gates doesn't even own the computer or software industries, only a fraction of the software industry. You don't have to pay Bill Gates if you don't want to either, there is good open source software out there thats completely free. But if you live under a socialist dictator, good luck not paying him.

And the United States government regulates Microsoft, they're constantly doing battle. Look at Ma Bell for an example of how the rule of law is a limiting factor for corporations. But when government is the corporation, you are totally screwed, quite possibly until the end of time (given today's circumstances).


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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 10:46:57 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

I wouldn't doubt that at all, such divide-and-conquer strategies are quite common among power hungry socialist elites such as Hugo Chavez.
Or any other power hungry types the world over...left wing, right wing, socialist, fascist...they all use these tactics where racial tension exists for them to exploit.


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RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela - 1/10/2010 10:55:51 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Bill Gates doesn't own the United States, especially not the same way that Hugo Chavez is taking ownership of Venezuela. Bill Gates doesn't even own the computer or software industries, only a fraction of the software industry. You don't have to pay Bill Gates if you don't want to either, there is good open source software out there thats completely free. But if you live under a socialist dictator, good luck not paying him.

And the United States government regulates Microsoft, they're constantly doing battle. Look at Ma Bell for an example of how the rule of law is a limiting factor for corporations. But when government is the corporation, you are totally screwed, quite possibly until the end of time (given today's circumstances).



You certainly make some good points, Sanity. I would not advocate a dictatorship in any case. But look at Lieberman's weakening of the Healthcare Bill in the Senate. The fact that Hartford, CT is home to the Health Insurance industry gives cause for alarm. Corporations and Lobbiests may not own the government but it seems they own those we elect, no matter who, as RealOne suggested. Surely, the fix is in. Many family members of the House and Senate work for Lobbiest, I understand.

Yes, Sanity, I am suggesting Chavez wears his racial ancestry on his face just as does Obama and Sonia Sotomayor. She, you will recall, insisted she is Latina, not Hispanic.

It is true, as you suggest, in a capitalist system anyone can get ahead. However, the history of Western Capitalism suggests that a whole class can be oppressed (god, I sound like Lenin .. pwew!) unless some type of revolution occurs as was witnessed in the USA when Blacks took to the streets and lunch counters. I believe the individual indios have the same intellectual capacity as do lighter skinned Hispanics and other caucasians, but there are many social and business barriers to success. You think not?

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