Social Democracy Works ? (Full Version)

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cjan -> Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 4:59:18 AM)

Sorry I can't post a link to the article in today's New York Times by Nobel Prize winning econo
ist and columnist Paul Krugman from the device I am using, but some of you may find the article interesting. I know I did.

It is interesting in light of the health care bill currently pending in congress and the mud being slung at Obama re " socialism", European style.

What say you ?



housesub4you -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 5:12:32 AM)

here is the link

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html


I think it is an accurate opinion of things in Europe.  Having traveled and lived there I was confused when politicians here would say their health-care system is ruining them.  It clearly is not.





LadyEllen -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 5:27:42 AM)

Exactly right. Interesting it doesnt specifically mention the UK though, where we are for some reason obsessed with becoming like the USA, with attendant socio-economic drivers that are producing huge wealth gaps and lack of social mobility.

And we also seem to be fed the same dim view of the continent as the US is; that most Brits have no experience of the continent apart from their two weeks in the Med each summer only assists in supporting this view. Meanwhile, any Brit that has travelled France, Benelux, Germany et al will be able to report a far higher number of people living at a far higher standard than in the UK.

E



submittous -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 10:43:20 AM)

Nice Op Ed.... not what Americans want to hear but pretty honest I think. He didn't mention that beyond universal health care most EU citizens get education including university paid with a stipend for students, often paid time off with new kids, good retirement, month long plus vacations etc... add in those costs and their tax rate doesn't look so bad.

Yet another issue is our businesses competing with exports, most of the EU health care, retirement etc is not paid by employers, our companies have to absorb those costs and still compete. Their system may actually be more business friendly than the US.

Being an ex-pat I am constantly amazed at how little average Americans know about how the rest of the world works... and amazed at how reluctant they are to adopt the things that work really well in foreign countries, trust me foreign countries will adopt what works good in America as fast as they can. I think if this attitude continues very long the US domination economically HAS to fall... having so much pride to ignore good ideas and systems because you didn't use them first is a path to a mediocre economy.



housesub4you -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 1:35:54 PM)

I here that, like a certain person refusing help from other countries when a hurricane hit New Orleans, saying that we can take care of our own.  Way to go person who put brownie in charge



PyrotheClown -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 6:09:20 PM)

But...But......if we become an openly socialist country, we wont be any "better" then those damn dirty commie cubans, or worse, the French. Can't we just call is something else, like Eagleism, or American Freedomism, Or the Duke system.

and if we acknowledge that our current system is a top heavy bloated behemoth, then we might have to fess up that we're lacking in other fields too, like edjamacation..

Nah, I think it's still best that we ignore these problems and fuss bout the gays






oh, and submittous, rock'n paint job on that rv







willbeurdaddy -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 10:59:39 PM)

There are so many holes in Krugman's propoganda piece its ridiculous. He typically exagerrates the value of things that support his arguments, and minimizes the value of things that don't. He's a self-described card carrying communist who believes in redistribution of weatlh, what kind of OpEd piece comparing the EU and US would you expect?



Silence8 -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/11/2010 11:08:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

There are so many holes in Krugman's propoganda piece its ridiculous. He typically exagerrates the value of things that support his arguments, and minimizes the value of things that don't. He's a self-described card carrying communist who believes in redistribution of weatlh, what kind of OpEd piece comparing the EU and US would you expect?


I don't recall Krugman admitting to being a communist. You've never read Krugman, admit it, and I'll admit I've never read Milton Friedman... or Thomas for that matter.



Fellow -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/12/2010 2:11:46 AM)

I have seen this argument Mr. Krugman is making before. My warning (I am not sure how valid it is) has been that US has different core ideology and society structure. European countries all are nation states and one of the major ideological lines is nation getting stronger, working together, taking care of itself. US is a mosaic of groups not a nation; the aspects like  individualism, consumerism, getting ahead personally drive the society. Under these conditions serious social democracy can become destructive as the ideas that drive the economy would be destroyed.



xXMasterXx -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 5:09:55 PM)

American is not a democracy.I challenge you to even find the word democracy in the us constitution because its not there...The founding fathers hated democracy and that is why we have a republic...A democracy is mob rule...In a democracy if 51% of the people vote against gay marriage then the other 49% are screwed which is the problem gays are having now .....In a republic we the people get to vote for our representatives to represent us and they can vote on everything EXCEPT property and inherent individual rights...thats the difference between a republic and democracy...Through out history every democracy eventually became a dictatorship....Germany was a democracy at one time too.



Lucylastic -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 5:16:27 PM)


ooooooh does that mean that america isnt capable of learning from mistakes and working out how to stop that from happening? or are you doooobed to follow germany? what about other democracies?
When will the UK become one??
when will Canada??
If you ignore history then you deserve what you get




housesub4you -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 5:17:53 PM)

Do you even read your school books?  Or do you just believe what the janitor tells you?



xXMasterXx -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 5:34:02 PM)

"If you ignore history then you deserve what you get "...my point exactly...I don't know when the uk or canada will fall I'm just telling you the facts that a democracy cannot work and throughout history has failed everytime and followed by a dictatorship....housesub4you
...Can you be nice and respectful or are you always an a$$hole?



Arpig -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 5:42:28 PM)

quote:

Germany was a democracy at one time too.
Actually when Hitler took power Germany was a federal republic not unlike the US...no more a democracy than the US...so there goes that Nazi bugaboo [:-]



Arpig -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 5:44:28 PM)

Its no surprise to me that the economy in Europe is doing ok (well ok for these times), Canada's economy has weathered the so-called financial crisis pretty well, mostly due to the regulation of the financial industry here...no bank failures North of the border that I am aware of.



xXMasterXx -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 6:10:39 PM)

Arpig...He had 98% vote count in hungery,austria...He was elected with the help of his brown shirts and his republic was not at all like ours...he had broad political and military power and a parliamentary democracy.



thornhappy -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 6:45:00 PM)

Arpig said BEFORE Hitler Germany was a republic ("Weimar Republic").



housesub4you -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 6:49:27 PM)

Do you even read history or do you just listen to talking points????  everything you state is nothing more than a talking point, made for propaganda (something Hitler knew about) 



Lucylastic -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 6:51:41 PM)

Ive seen very little to respect so far



Arpig -> RE: Social Democracy Works ? (1/13/2010 8:40:53 PM)

quote:

He had 98% vote count in hungery,austria
Actually the Nazis claimed over 99% in the referendum in Austria following its occupation by German troops, and Hitler never recieved any votes in Hungary...Hungary had its own crypto-fascist government under the Regent Horthy. Minor details, yes, but still, please do try to get your facts straight.



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