InvisibleBlack
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Joined: 7/24/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
I think you, and a lot of other people here, have trouble stomaching that weakness is an element of femininity, and that control is an element of masculinity.
Welcome back.
I don't know if "stomaching" is quite the word I'd use as I don't really have much invested in either term. It's more of an intellectual exercise as my usage of the terms seems at odds with yours and I'm trying to determine if my understanding of the concepts is at odds with common usage or if yours is.
My dictionary lists "feminine" as "having qualities or or characteristics traditionally ascribed to women, as sensitivity, delicacy, or prettiness". I'm not sure that's the perfect definition as I'd have to think about women and characters I consider as exemplars of femininity and whether they met the definition, but even given that what it doesn't include is "weak".
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
Lauren Bacall means nothing to me. I think I've seen her in one movie. I have no idea what's she's like, so...pick another example.
I'll use the same genre I was using for "gentleman". I consider Morticia Addams (in either the Carolyn Jones or Anjelica Huston incarnation) quite feminine. I don't believe she is weak.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
quote:
Similarly, I don't believe that being "masculine" requires someone to be in charge. Some masculine men dominate and run things. Some do not.
Not by the definition of masculine as I understand it.
That's the issue at hand, I think. As I understand it, masculinity has nothing to do with being "in charge".
The classic Western hero, the strong silent type - whether Gary Cooper or Clint Eastwood - is considered to be extremely "masculine" - yet is never in charge of anything. If attacked or insulted, the Western hero reacts strongly - if confronted with an injustice, he corrects it - but at the end of the day the hero rides off into the sunset alone. I would argue that the "masculine" man is not defined by his relationship with others but more by his adhering to his own inner code, and as such notions such as "control" are irrelevant to the concept of masculinity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
...and didn't those relationships destroy those men? Because they lost control of themselves to a woman, and were dragged down and crushed by mercurial femininity? There's a fine line between being inspired by and controlled by a woman, and in literature fate has generally been cruel to those who cross the line. I mean Christ, who the hell wants to emulate Lancelot and Guinevere? That's up there with emulating Romeo and Juliet on the list of bad ideas.
I don't know if Caesar's assassination in the Senate can be blamed on Cleopatra. I believe that, historically, she argued that he should bring a bodyguard with him and he shrugged her off. I will grant you that Lancelot's relationship with Guinevere destroyed him (and her and everyone around them) but I'm not sure if that's due to an innate flaw in their relationship dynamic or due to the fact that she happened to be married to the king.
However, a particular incident isn't sufficient to prove or disprove a general type. If you're saying that for a masculine man to submit to a powerful woman will result in his (or their) destruction - I'd have to say it probably depends on the woman.
I think that "dominance" and "submission" are gender neutral terms and so are words like "control" and "weakness".
A football team is composed of what are regarded as very masculine men. The captain of the team is usually the quarterback, who is regarded as the weakest of the offensive team - the one "in charge" being the least masculine, not to mention the coach who is even less "masculine".
At the extreme end, a man who is obsessed with being in control, who has to be in charge at all times, the caricature of the anal-retentive martinet isn't viewed as "masculine" at all and is generally despised or ridiculed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
...while having an interest in hot rods and pro-sports are masculine characteristics but not male characteristics.
I don't know if having an interest in hot rods and pro-sports would head my list of "masculine" characteristics. They're probably not even on it. This is probably extremely illustrative of the discrepancies between our views.
< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 1/18/2010 8:56:57 PM >
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Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 
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