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Medialens - 1/16/2010 1:53:01 AM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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I have in the past mentioned here, my distrust of media when commenting on various threads, due to a belief that all media is influenced, what each media outlet spouts is in accordance with an agenda, hence the question often asked and prior judgements made, about a person when asked, what brand of newspaper they read. Here in the UK there is perceived to be a marked difference between a reader of say The Sun and The Times, two newspapers at opposite ends of a spectrum, with the former it is said to have the largest readership, (mind some of those whom I have known and marked themselves as a Sun reader, can barely read so I must conclude it was the tits out on page three that drew them in and there the style of reporting, something which I likened to rabble rousing).

Now, I don't read newspapers, national newspapers that is, I might occaisionally in a bored moment down the pub peruse a few pages of the local newspaper, but that is it, I long ago decided newspapers were a waste of paper, and there wood and trees as I could see the different agendas being put over by each newspaper, so in realty, what truth was being told, undoubtedly, a truth the type of reader wants to hear, what sits well with their own ideas. I also saw reader manipulation at work and wondered if a newspaper ever became a political party and ran for government, perhaps there would be more interest in voting and Britain might be a very different place as a result.

Anyway, the point of this posting was to make interested people aware of a very interesting website, called Medialens.Org, a site set up to analyse and correct the misreporting by the popular media outlets, so, if you desire to read something without political spin or corporate agendas, give Medialens a try ;

http://www.medialens.org/about/

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

Post #: 1

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 4:07:19 AM

NorthernGent

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Of course the media is an instrument of control. In fact any central source of opinion/ideas operates in that way - they have a view of the world based on core opinions and news flows accordingly.

The more interesting question issue for me is the next step in political freedom. The renaissance men made a break with church controlled education and began to search for their own understanding of the world - in other words they believed that the world could be understood outside of Christianity and these men were sort of suspended between faith and knowledge. Since then there has been one steady procession toward understanding your place in the world based on individual expression (or at least it seems that way). But now we're at a cross roads where this steady erosion of church control and the move toward individual expression really hasn't produced the desired results - for many the media has in effect replaced the church as the central source of learning and it seems that many of us are quite happy with that. In terms of self expression we haven't moved forward as much as we assume and perhaps it's an illusion.

I read the Independent now and again solely for the letters section as there are some interesting opinions in there - from both left and right (though a narrow version of left and right by anyone's standards). But the Independent is unquestionably a newspaper for the Middle Classes....is pro-European....is pro-redistribution of wealth.....is pro-civil liberties......is anti-war.......and I'll bet you every issue is reported with these principles in mind (it couldn't be any other way as those are their core views).

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/16/2010 4:09:01 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 2

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 4:11:39 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Anyway, the point of this posting was to make interested people aware of a very interesting website, called Medialens.Org, a site set up to analyse and correct the misreporting by the popular media outlets, so, if you desire to read something without political spin or corporate agendas, give Medialens a try ;

http://www.medialens.org/about/

And of course these people are virtuous human beings who will not place their own slant on the news? Not possible mate. No matter how objective these people think they are......

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 3

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 6:13:33 AM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Anyway, the point of this posting was to make interested people aware of a very interesting website, called Medialens.Org, a site set up to analyse and correct the misreporting by the popular media outlets, so, if you desire to read something without political spin or corporate agendas, give Medialens a try ;

http://www.medialens.org/about/

And of course these people are virtuous human beings who will not place their own slant on the news? Not possible mate. No matter how objective these people think they are......

You are undoubtedly right about the fallibility of humans when it comes to virtue, NG. I agree with you, as I take it you are saying, we should as individuals be suspicious of any source of information and opinion. These folks that Aneirin brings us at least provide a model for their commentary and to that extent their agenda is transparent. To wit:

"In their 1988 book 'Manufacturing Consent - The Political Economy of the Mass Media', Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky introduced their 'propaganda model' of the media. The propaganda model argues that there are 5 classes of 'filters' in society which determine what is 'news'; in other words, what gets printed in newspapers or broadcast by radio and television. Herman and Chomsky's model also explains how dissent from the mainstream is given little, or zero, coverage, while governments and big business gain easy access to the public in order to convey their state-corporate messages - for example, 'free trade is beneficial, 'globalisation is unstoppable' and 'our policies are tackling poverty'."

Thereafter Medialens proceeds to enumerate and enlarge a bit on each of the 5 filters. That in itself is worth a read by anyone on this message board, I think.

I further read their alert on the alleged forgery of the letter that portrays Iran working on a triggering device for a nuclear weapon. Also, a comprehensive read and seemingly quite well done.

While it is true we don't know who to believe, we are subjected to propaganda and dissent to the original propaganda which in turn may be and often is just more propaganda but from the other side. What little critque of the Media shows we have here in the States on TV also seem to carry their own slant. So, we are left as Diogenes in search of an honest man. When we find him we should expect him to have some imperfections.

Thank you for the source, Aneirin.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/16/2010 6:15:55 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 4

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 9:43:45 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

while governments and big business gain easy access to the public in order to convey their state-corporate messages - for example, 'free trade is beneficial, 'globalisation is unstoppable' and 'our policies are tackling poverty'."[/color]

I think this supports my point.

Free trade can be benificial given certain circumstances. It is an ideal that promotes the sharing of ideas.

Globalisation could be unstoppable. The growth of towns and cities has underpinned Liberalism and knowledge sharing. I'd say that the human species took a decisive and irreversible step forward when we began to explore the world for oursleves rather than rely on church dogma. A reasonable case could be put forward to argue that globalisation is the inevitable outcome.

The point is that certain ideals will work in certain circumstances and not in others - so anyone resolute behind a principle (such as anti-free trade) is using the media for personal gain/power (and I mean in terms of being seen to be at the forefront of 'dissent').

I'm not suspicious of opinions - rather I see it as inevitable that people will herd behind an idea for self-promotion (including where people think they're opposing the status quo).

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 5

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 10:51:51 AM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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Nope. These outstanding folk don't have any pre-conceived notions at all behind their completely objective journalistic endeavor...

Media Lens has grown out of our frustration with the unwillingness, or inability, of the mainstream media to tell the truth about the real causes and extent of many of the problems facing us, such as human rights abuses, poverty, pollution and climate change. Because much modern suffering is rooted in the unlimited greed of corporate profit-maximising...

Nope. No agenda to be found here.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 6

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 10:59:32 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

while governments and big business gain easy access to the public in order to convey their state-corporate messages - for example, 'free trade is beneficial, 'globalisation is unstoppable' and 'our policies are tackling poverty'."[/color]

I think this supports my point.

Free trade can be benificial given certain circumstances. It is an ideal that promotes the sharing of ideas.

Globalisation could be unstoppable. The growth of towns and cities has underpinned Liberalism and knowledge sharing. I'd say that the human species took a decisive and irreversible step forward when we began to explore the world for oursleves rather than rely on church dogma. A reasonable case could be put forward to argue that globalisation is the inevitable outcome.

The point is that certain ideals will work in certain circumstances and not in others - so anyone resolute behind a principle (such as anti-free trade) is using the media for personal gain/power (and I mean in terms of being seen to be at the forefront of 'dissent').

I'm not suspicious of opinions - rather I see it as inevitable that people will herd behind an idea for self-promotion (including where people think they're opposing the status quo).

I have no disagreement with what you are saying regarding agenda. These folks would appear to be leaning against the received wisdom and Chomsky has been a notorious dissenter so the folks at Medialens are at least baring their souls by associating with him.

However, they are not afraid to give detailed analysis of news articles, you will observe if you read their article on the Iranian nuclear trigger document. I was impressed by this because I recall too well the efforts to supress Joe Wilson's criticism of the story of Iraq's purchase of yellowcake from Niger. How often do you see some faction of the media cry foul against another without their own agenda? Not too often I think. Hopefully, these folk will be a bit more successful.

It is also possible that globalization and free trade are leading to massive unrest among the poor nations who are being left behind, are responsible for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the west, and are responsible for the invasion of jihadists and an overflow of population from the Middle East and Southeast Asia, but we seldom hear or see discussion of those matters and those views in mass media.

However, I think these issues are besides the point if Medialens can focus on grossly misleading information fed to us by Government through the media. The major case in point in recent history being the WMD in Iraq and now the alleged nuclear threat from Iran. We don't get much of the dissenting side of the story. Chomsky's media model gives us good reasons why this is so. The media are so hungry for access to Power they will print almost any bullshit.

As I said previously, when we find the truthful man he will have some imperfections. I am not saying here that we have found him. Time will tell I suppose.

But yes you do make a good point that it is difficult to be free of any agenda.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/16/2010 12:01:17 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 7

RE: Medialens - 1/16/2010 11:04:56 AM

VeryMercurial

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It is hard if not impossible to find any source of news that is not slanted
or biased.

< Message edited by VeryMercurial -- 1/16/2010 11:05:18 AM >

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 8

RE: Medialens - 1/17/2010 6:09:06 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I have no disagreement with what you are saying regarding agenda. These folks would appear to be leaning against the received wisdom and Chomsky has been a notorious dissenter so the folks at Medialens are at least baring their souls by associating with him.

I'm a big fan of Chomsky and can understand why people are attracted to his view of the world (not least that social anarchy seems so much more interesting than the current position where big ideas and grand causes are out of favour and have been replaced by a more mundane and cynical existence - negative freedom is the phrase I think). But as we've both said it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt as Chomsky has a certain view of human nature which is inevitably shaped by his personal experience (in other words it's one mans stance rather than the answer).

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

However, they are not afraid to give detailed analysis of news articles, you will observe if you read their article on the Iranian nuclear trigger document. I was impressed by this because I recall too well the efforts to supress Joe Wilson's criticism of the story of Iraq's purchase of yellowcake from Niger. How often do you see some faction of the media cry foul against another without their own agenda? Not too often I think. Hopefully, these folk will be a bit more successful.

It's well documented that the British Government doctored intelligence reports to talk up the Iraq threat (question marks were deleted and replaced with exclamation marks in order to turn a question into an answer) and they presented forged documents (knowingly) to Parliament purporting to be proof that the Iraqis were sourcing uranium from Niger (the CIA told the British Government they were forged and advised them to remove the document from the dossier - problem was they didn't have much else). But genuinely most of us realised that it was all a load of old rubbish anyway and I'm not sure there'll be any great suprise were the mentioned in the OP to claim: "the government manipulates the situation to achieve what it thinks is the best course of action for the nation". Call it apathy or cynicism but I think most people in this country have had enough of claim and counter claim - (which is part of the reason why only 50% of the population turned out at the last election). I think in England there really needs to be a radical change to the political landscape because people are so disinterested in and cynical about the current system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is also possible that globalization and free trade are leading to massive unrest among the poor nations who are being left behind, are responsible for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the west, and are responsible for the invasion of jihadists and an overflow of population from the Middle East and Southeast Asia, but we seldom hear or see discussion of those matters and those views in mass media.

I'd agree with your point on cause and effect around the globe - though free trade isn't necessarily the cause. Free trade encourages competition/raising the bar/knowledge sharing - like anything there is another side to the coin but it certainly has its positives and really doesn't deserve to be held accountable for the world's ills. Free trade is a principle that discourages war by the way - that is how it was conceived.

In terms of Islamic extremism - well - set up shop in someone's garden and they're going to do something about it - no real surprise there. We call it extremism - they may call it something entirely different - it doesn't really matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The media are so hungry for access to Power they will print almost any bullshit.

Well yeah - but who isn't hungry for power? More importantly they're businesses and have an audience to satisfy - which I suppose puts the onus on us (which sounds about right to me).

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 9

RE: Medialens - 1/17/2010 7:57:48 PM

vincentML

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is also possible that globalization and free trade are leading to massive unrest among the poor nations who are being left behind, are responsible for the loss of manufacturing jobs in the west, and are responsible for the invasion of jihadists and an overflow of population from the Middle East and Southeast Asia, but we seldom hear or see discussion of those matters and those views in mass media.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I'd agree with your point on cause and effect around the globe - though free trade isn't necessarily the cause. Free trade encourages competition/raising the bar/knowledge sharing - like anything there is another side to the coin but it certainly has its positives and really doesn't deserve to be held accountable for the world's ills. Free trade is a principle that discourages war by the way - that is how it was conceived.

Interesting book I read recently The Lords Of Finance remarked in passing on the Gilded Age 1914 the cherished belief that Free Trade would discourage war. Who could imagine that Germany and England would war with one another, being trading partners. Of course, it was tragically ironic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In terms of Islamic extremism - well - set up shop in someone's garden and they're going to do something about it - no real surprise there. We call it extremism - they may call it something entirely different - it doesn't really matter.

Do I read your meaning correctly that the West has set up shop in Islam's garden and are suffering the blowback from it? I take it all as part of a continuing revolution against Western Colonialism. Although, previously Islam was quite militant in reaching across to Spain in the west and to the gates of Vienna in the east of Europe. Clash of Civilisations perhaps inevitable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The media are so hungry for access to Power they will print almost any bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Well yeah - but who isn't hungry for power? More importantly they're businesses and have an audience to satisfy - which I suppose puts the onus on us (which sounds about right to me).

Which brings us back to the OP and possibly a legitimate role for Medialens. *shrugs*

< Message edited by vincentML -- 1/17/2010 7:58:29 PM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 10

RE: Medialens - 1/17/2010 8:16:10 PM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

"In their 1988 book 'Manufacturing Consent - The Political Economy of the Mass Media', Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky introduced their 'propaganda model' of the media. The propaganda model argues that there are 5 classes of 'filters' in society which determine what is 'news'; in other words, what gets printed in newspapers or broadcast by radio and television. Herman and Chomsky's model also explains how dissent from the mainstream is given little, or zero, coverage, while governments and big business gain easy access to the public in order to convey their state-corporate messages - for example, 'free trade is beneficial, 'globalisation is unstoppable' and 'our policies are tackling poverty'."

There's also a movie based on the book. It's online somewhere.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 11

RE: Medialens - 1/18/2010 9:04:40 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

"In their 1988 book 'Manufacturing Consent - The Political Economy of the Mass Media', Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky introduced their 'propaganda model' of the media. The propaganda model argues that there are 5 classes of 'filters' in society which determine what is 'news'; in other words, what gets printed in newspapers or broadcast by radio and television. Herman and Chomsky's model also explains how dissent from the mainstream is given little, or zero, coverage, while governments and big business gain easy access to the public in order to convey their state-corporate messages - for example, 'free trade is beneficial, 'globalisation is unstoppable' and 'our policies are tackling poverty'."

There's also a movie based on the book. It's online somewhere.

Thanks for the info, Silence. I have watched an hour of it so far. Basically, it includes dramatizations and splices of interviews with Chomsky through the years, where he reveals his personal history, motivations, and ideas of political action and waging dissent against the corporate oligarchy. There are some counterpoints presented but not much. The total running time is 2 hours, 47 minutes.

If anyone is interested in some serious outside the box thinking you will find the film here.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 12

RE: Medialens - 1/18/2010 2:15:34 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Interesting book I read recently The Lords Of Finance remarked in passing on the Gilded Age 1914 the cherished belief that Free Trade would discourage war. Who could imagine that Germany and England would war with one another, being trading partners. Of course, it was tragically ironic.

Quite a bit of distortion in that statement Vincent.

Firstly the financiers and bankers in Britain/France/Germany did not want war because they knew better than anyone that modern technology would lead to a protracted war and in turn a dislocation of trade and credit.

The businesses that wanted war were the likes of the Hamburg manufacturing industries - who weren't interested in free trade - they simply wanted to grab some raw materials.

By the way it was far from guaranteed that the British would enter the war on the eve of the war itself. The cabinet was split 50/50 - some members resigned. Lloyd George said something along the lines of..."the lights have gove out all over Europe"...people knew what was coming.

The reason Germany was so keen to go to war wasn't that they were commercially strong or that they were proponents of free trade - the opposite was the case - Germany was weak - so war was the only conceivable option to solve 'the land in the middle' problem. The Germans weren't our main trading partner - though I will give you that part of the reason why the Americans entered the war was that they could not afford Britain to lose it (the other being that they wanted a place at the winners table and thought - wrongly - that the Germans were beaten in early 1917 and there would be few American casualties).

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Do I read your meaning correctly that the West has set up shop in Islam's garden and are suffering the blowback from it? I take it all as part of a continuing revolution against Western Colonialism. Although, previously Islam was quite militant in reaching across to Spain in the west and to the gates of Vienna in the east of Europe. Clash of Civilisations perhaps inevitable?

I think it's inevitable that people (any people) will fight their corner. I'm not convinced the response is religion motivated - more a case of fighing your corner to prevent having your possessions stolen.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 13

RE: Medialens - 1/18/2010 2:42:55 PM

domiguy

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It seems that when ever you read or hear something you have to look for where the bias might lay. Out here there are very few that are capable.

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Post #: 14

RE: Medialens - 1/18/2010 2:45:45 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Interesting book I read recently The Lords Of Finance remarked in passing on the Gilded Age 1914 the cherished belief that Free Trade would discourage war. Who could imagine that Germany and England would war with one another, being trading partners. Of course, it was tragically ironic.

Quite a bit of distortion in that statement Vincent.

Firstly the financiers and bankers in Britain/France/Germany did not want war because they knew better than anyone that modern technology would lead to a protracted war and in turn a dislocation of trade and credit.

The author made it quite clear that the bankers did not want war and suggested they pinned their hopes upon "free trade," and were damned astonished when war came. Perhaps the fellow has it wrong but that is what I recall reading. There was also some controversy about land in northwest Africa. Germany wanted a piece of the Colonial pie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent: By the way it was far from guaranteed that the British would enter the war on the eve of the war itself. The cabinet was split 50/50 - some members resigned. Lloyd George said something along the lines of..."the lights have gove out all over Europe"...people knew what was coming.

Yes, I am aware of the conflict in the Cabinet. The Minister of War (?) had made a verbal agreement with France about which Lloyd George was unaware, I recall. And still there was quite a bit of flag-waving and parading in the streets of English towns. Sadly, they thought it would all be over by Christmas. Quite similar to the atmosphere in the USA prior to entry as well. And the USA was rightly criticised for its part. Wilson lied and boys died. Sound familiar?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent: The reason Germany was so keen to go to war wasn't that they were commercially strong or that they were proponents of free trade - the opposite was the case - Germany was weak - so war was the only conceivable option to solve 'the land in the middle' problem. The Germans weren't our main trading partner - though I will give you that part of the reason why the Americans entered the war was that they could not afford Britain to lose it (the other being that they wanted a place at the winners table and thought - wrongly - that the Germans were beaten in early 1917 and there would be few American casualties).

Believe me NG, our educational system in the States gives little attention to The Great War. Just a page or two and a wave of the hand. Too much trouble figuring the blocks of Empires. But still the same propaganda we have witnessed ever after.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Do I read your meaning correctly that the West has set up shop in Islam's garden and are suffering the blowback from it? I take it all as part of a continuing revolution against Western Colonialism. Although, previously Islam was quite militant in reaching across to Spain in the west and to the gates of Vienna in the east of Europe. Clash of Civilisations perhaps inevitable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent: I think it's inevitable that people (any people) will fight their corner. I'm not convinced the response is religion motivated - more a case of fighing your corner to prevent having your possessions stolen.

That was the argument given in the book of that title. I forget the author's name. He did make a pretty good case for conflict along the fault lines between the Great Religions. It may be a combination of the two that we see today. Cosmic war and the aftershocks of the fall of Colonialism.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 15

RE: Medialens - 1/18/2010 3:15:47 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The author made it quite clear that the bankers did not want war and suggested they pinned their hopes upon "free trade," and were damned astonished when war came. Perhaps the fellow has it wrong but that is what I recall reading. There was also some controversy about land in northwest Africa. Germany wanted a piece of the Colonial pie.

I think this is borne out by the stock market - particularly in England. In the week before the war there was no indication whatsoever on the stock market.

The British and French had Africa boxed off. There was Anglo-French tension in the 1880s which dissipated when they agreed to get their heads together and own the place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And still there was quite a bit of flag-waving and parading in the streets of English towns. Sadly, they thought it would all be over by Christmas. Quite similar to the atmosphere in the USA prior to entry as well. And the USA was rightly criticised for its part. Wilson lied and boys died. Sound familiar?

England was a country that schooled its children to believe in the glory of England and to treat war as a sport - you've heard the poem Dulce et Decorum Est - it's about the school masters of England and their misplaced patriotism. And after a generation was lost the education system did an about turn. I think it was Bertrand Russell who was horrified to see the misplaced patriotism on the streets - or was it Keynes. Though records show that those most keen were university students and the Middle Class who had been schooled in doing theit duty to England.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Believe me NG, our educational system in the States gives little attention to The Great War. Just a page or two and a wave of the hand. Too much trouble figuring the blocks of Empires. But still the same propaganda we have witnessed ever after.

Same here Vincent - which I find a tad strange considering it had a far greater impact on England than WW2.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

That was the argument given in the book of that title. I forget the author's name. He did make a pretty good case for conflict along the fault lines between the Great Religions. It may be a combination of the two that we see today. Cosmic war and the aftershocks of the fall of Colonialism.

I'm not convinced.

The Ottoman empire (reference Siege of Vienna) was another imperial venture. Mehmed's Constantinople was tolerant of Jews and Christians alike and Suleyman forged a close alliance with France. Economics over religion.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 16

RE: Medialens - 1/18/2010 5:00:39 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

England was a country that schooled its children to believe in the glory of England and to treat war as a sport - you've heard the poem Dulce et Decorum Est - it's about the school masters of England and their misplaced patriotism. And after a generation was lost the education system did an about turn. I think it was Bertrand Russell who was horrified to see the misplaced patriotism on the streets - or was it Keynes. Though records show that those most keen were university students and the Middle Class who had been schooled in doing theit duty to England.

I was encouraged watching the Brit film The History Boys which dealt with the role of the schools in the 1980s and pressed back against mindless gingoism. I recall the line that went something like "we put up monuments (to the dead of WW 1) not to remember but to forget." This from a teacher to his class. The movie also introduced me to the poem Drummer Hodge by Thomas Hardy, which I thought quite moving.

I find discouraging here in the States that we still train our young men for war while they are in school. American Football, which I enjoy, is a reenactment of war with tactics and strategies galore. The newest entrant on the scene of "Hey kids, isn't war fun?" seem to be the violent video games and of course the super digital graphic movies which make the killing all seem so easy. We are always preparing a generation for the next battle it seems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I'm not convinced.

The Ottoman empire (reference Siege of Vienna) was another imperial venture. Mehmed's Constantinople was tolerant of Jews and Christians alike and Suleyman forged a close alliance with France. Economics over religion.

Within Empires there may have been tolerence. Yes. But along the fault lines there is war. As I recall, the author pointed to the constant friction along the line between Othodox Christianity (Greece and Serbia) on one line pressing against Islam. Russian Orthodox Christianity pressing against the northern line of Islam. And the line between Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India (artificially created, I know) Other examples were given. And how would you classify the conflict between the IRA and Ulster if not religious? I do not deny that nationalism is also a palpable issue.

Btw, the Chomsky movie referenced earlier is quite enlightening. I am half way through it.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 17

RE: Medialens - 1/19/2010 5:29:21 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent:

you've heard the poem Dulce et Decorum Est

Thank you for this, Gent. I was not familiar with it. The last stanza is horrific, isn't it?

There is a body of anti-war poetry by US poets who came out of WW1 but it is largely obscure now.

Sad that Owen died a week before the end of the war.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 18

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