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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 5:24:27 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Debate on collarme can be a lot of fun - and informative, mainly because i get different viewpoints that maybe i hadn't considered.

Unfortunately, there usually there seems to come a time in most interesting threads where emotions get carried away and so does the retoric. and then of course, there are the trolls.
We do seem to have our fair share. A little bit of troll goes a long way! - kind of like curry powder.

< Message edited by kiwisub12 -- 1/23/2010 5:25:16 PM >

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 5:42:21 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Oh come on! You are a big sweetie ;-)


Sometimes...

I knew it!

quote:

quote:

I learned a lot here and elsewhere when I was a newbie!


You are perhaps unnaturally inquisitive, as well as intelligent. So, you may have had an experience that would not be replicated all the time.

Some people call it pain in the ass ;-)

quote:

quote:

Who are you calling old?!?!? ;-)


Umm......them! Over there...yes, that's it...

A number of things come to mind when I think of you, and old isn't one of them.

Dare I ask?

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 5:43:44 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Debate on collarme can be a lot of fun - and informative, mainly because i get different viewpoints that maybe i hadn't considered.

Unfortunately, there usually there seems to come a time in most interesting threads where emotions get carried away and so does the retoric. and then of course, there are the trolls.
We do seem to have our fair share. A little bit of troll goes a long way! - kind of like curry powder.


Thanks for your contribution kiwisub :-)

What do you think of what I proposed about if we tried to communicate good debate etiquettes? Do you think this could help or not?

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 5:55:29 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Dare I ask?

- LA



I'll just say that it's quite positive, generally.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 6:02:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Dare I ask?

- LA



I'll just say that it's quite positive, generally.

Oh that makes me feel good! Thanks :-)

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 6:12:45 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Why do you debate?


I get sadistic pleasure out of fucking with people's heads.

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 6:14:29 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Why do you debate?


I get sadistic pleasure out of fucking with people's heads.


Why doesn't that surprise me Merc ;-)

- LA


_____________________________

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:10:39 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		I miss debating with people.  Too often, I end up talking with like-minded people who just agree & expand on my ideas.  On the other hand, there are a whole lot of people who don't understand the concept of debate & get way too emotional & try to make me believe as they do.  When they start yelling, I stop the discussion because it has now become an argument, no longer a debate.

My Father & his Father loved debating.  They taught me how to think that way.  When we would get together & start discussing something, one of them would always take the other side, whether that was their belief or not.  It made for an interesting mental exercise.  I have learned much from people who have ideas different from mine because they weren't afraid to debate an issue with me.  It's hard to find people who are able to have a discussion with differing ideas & opinions without getting all het up about those differences.  Calling me a donkey won't sway me to your way of thinking. 

_____________________________

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Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:11:11 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Angelika,

I debate because I enjoy it.  However, when things get into comparisons that can't be made, name calling, and ridiculous insults/personal attacks, I generally step out.  I don't like all or nothing thinking and find that people who participate in that way of looking at the world are unrealistic and rather foolish.


Agreed. Do you think it might because they don't know how to debate properly or chose to ignore the recommended practices such as the ones provided in the tutorial mentioned in the OP?

Do you think that promoting a similar type of tutorial might be helpful?

No, not really.  While there are people who are reasonable and who argue fairly, the ones who do not will have one of two reactions I think.  They will either, upon being pointed to these kinds of guidelines, be appreciative and fall back into the reasonable camp or they will be defensive and choose to not learn no matter what support is given them.  Those people are led by something inside themselves that no outside structure of any sort will be listened to. 

quote:

I will sometimes ask someone who is deliberately inflammatory how they came to their conclusions.  I like to hear about their process - partly because I don't like the anger that is behind their attacks and partly because it takes the person off guard and partly because it deepens the discussion so that it is about joining rather than separating. 

Best,
sunshine


I think that is a good way of going about it. It is nice when they are able to explain it and not get defensive, right?

- LA

It is nice, yes, and it is often something they've not thought about.  It gives them an opportunity to be a bit more authentic than their bluster.  There's that joining thing again.   



< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 1/23/2010 7:13:22 PM >

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:13:13 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		I debate here now so as to develop myself by learning from others.

I don't behave well when it comes to formal structured debate ... I tried it and failed, so now I simply admit that and get on with it as I can.

In the USA ... there seems to be a great culture of debating, people are very keen. I think this is a good thing.

Mostly I debate here (these days, rather than previously) so as to contribute a factor beneficial to cultural understanding between my wife (a US citizen) and I (a UK citizen). If the knowing of this is a problem to anyone, I am not apologising, I make no secret of it.

The hardest thing for me to truly translate is something that has been debated on several occasions here ... there is an American (US) majority here which causes an imbalance in terms of any "world" issues that come up.
I'm happy to soak up some of the misunderstandings and perceived xenophobia (which works both ways) in favour of attempting to understand.
I have Rhino thick skin ... that helps a lot.
It is clear to my wife and I that apart from a broken language link, our nations are very foreign to each other. Life has become most interesting.

Regarding the above ... some of the misunderstandings that are apparent, as well as linguistic barriers that this exposes here are tremendous proof to me of the supreme effort that Greedy puts into eliminating them  between us.

Sometimes I debate here because of specifc issue interest too.

Pirate

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:14:40 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Dear Level,
"Seasoned" posters....

*wink
sunshine


_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:25:58 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Jonnie -

quote:



In the USA ... there seems to be a great culture of debating, people are very keen. I think this is a good thing.


While I do agree that culture has a lot to do with a person's freedom to practice debate (or arguing), I think that what is encouraged in the USA is not DEBATE per se, but is instead asserting blame onto someone else, the perceived need to be RIGHT, wanting to have the last word.  I'm thinking the way wrestlers and boxers trash each other before a fight.

quote:

Mostly I debate here (these days, rather than previously) so as to contribute a factor beneficial to cultural understanding between my wife (a US citizen) and I (a UK citizen). If the knowing of this is a problem to anyone, I am not apologising, I make no secret of it.


I rather enjoy the differences between the two.  In fact, I just the other day said we need more Brits posting.  Of course that is because I enjoy seeing "good on you" and "chap"  and "spot on" and all those other wonderfully British sayings.

quote:

The hardest thing for me to truly translate is something that has been debated on several occasions here ... there is an American (US) majority here which causes an imbalance in terms of any "world" issues that come up.


I think you have an excellent point here.  I watch the BBC news rather than CNN because CNN is so USA focused and doesn't really show how the USA impacts on the rest of the world nor does it cover things from the perspective of other cultures / countries in a manner that makes sense to me.  It is very skewed in my opinion.

quote:

I'm happy to soak up some of the misunderstandings and perceived xenophobia (which works both ways) in favour of attempting to understand.
I have Rhino thick skin ... that helps a lot.


Good on you!  (I just had to say it)

quote:

It is clear to my wife and I that apart from a broken language link, our nations are very foreign to each other. Life has become most interesting.
Regarding the above ... some of the misunderstandings that are apparent, as well as linguistic barriers that this exposes here are tremendous proof to me of the supreme effort that Greedy puts into eliminating them  between us.


I think when people come together to discuss things and are not invested in raging or being right, but rather in understanding each other and on being clear, then we can have wonderful debates.  It is when they slide down away from misunderstandings and into deliberate distrust (whether being distrustful or choosing to distrust by flying off the handle) that we are not able to break down those barriers.

Best,
sunshine



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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:32:00 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis

I miss debating with people.  Too often, I end up talking with like-minded people who just agree & expand on my ideas.  On the other hand, there are a whole lot of people who don't understand the concept of debate & get way too emotional & try to make me believe as they do.  When they start yelling, I stop the discussion because it has now become an argument, no longer a debate.

My Father & his Father loved debating.  They taught me how to think that way.  When we would get together & start discussing something, one of them would always take the other side, whether that was their belief or not.  It made for an interesting mental exercise.  I have learned much from people who have ideas different from mine because they weren't afraid to debate an issue with me.  It's hard to find people who are able to have a discussion with differing ideas & opinions without getting all het up about those differences.  Calling me a donkey won't sway me to your way of thinking. 


Excellent post, Linea.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LinnaeaBorealis)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 7:40:15 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Dear Level,
"Seasoned" posters....

*wink
sunshine



*Level once he's seasoned*



_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/24/2010 4:26:09 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Vey rarely do I see what I write on here as a debate. If I were to debate I would be more selective about the intelligence and open mindedness of the person I was debating. To me, a debate, is a meeting of minds that have different opinions yet are intelligent and respectful enough to acknowledge the contribution of the person/s with a differing opinion. People that are open to learned and maybe even changing their opinion. All without sinking to rediculous levels of attack and name calling.

What I see on here, specifically in some areas, is primarily, a group of different minded but still very set in their own perception of right and wrong, individuals that are using the written word to beat up anyone that does not agree with their narrow perception. I don't enjoy arguing with putzes just to watch myself type.

I prefer to simply state my opinion, read others, learn from them, and THEN watch the putzes wind themselves up so I can poke them and wind them some more, all while giggling in sadistic glee.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/24/2010 7:31:39 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Debate on collarme can be a lot of fun - and informative, mainly because i get different viewpoints that maybe i hadn't considered.

Unfortunately, there usually there seems to come a time in most interesting threads where emotions get carried away and so does the retoric. and then of course, there are the trolls.
We do seem to have our fair share. A little bit of troll goes a long way! - kind of like curry powder.


Thanks for your contribution kiwisub :-)

What do you think of what I proposed about if we tried to communicate good debate etiquettes? Do you think this could help or not?

- LA




The problem with good debate etiquette, as i see it, is that there is only a section of the cm crowd that would actually use it. There are people like L'Tigress (yes, finger pointing) that enjoy poking the trolls and getting them riled up. And i have to admit i am guilty of my own troll poking - because as L'Tigress said, it is fun!
It would have to be written into the TOS, and would i think, take a lot of the fun out of CM.
Sad but true, we are like the people who go to Nascar - the crashes are the best thing about the whole thing. The rest is interesting but blood and gore is where its at. (please excuse the bad grammar)

< Message edited by kiwisub12 -- 1/24/2010 7:32:35 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/24/2010 8:39:11 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

And the very people I love to poke........I wouldn't debate with because of the very reason I poke! Those are the people that you cannot have an intelligent discussion with because they are so dead set on trying to beat everyone else into agreeing with them.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/24/2010 4:22:28 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Debate on collarme can be a lot of fun - and informative, mainly because i get different viewpoints that maybe i hadn't considered.

Unfortunately, there usually there seems to come a time in most interesting threads where emotions get carried away and so does the retoric. and then of course, there are the trolls.
We do seem to have our fair share. A little bit of troll goes a long way! - kind of like curry powder.


Thanks for your contribution kiwisub :-)

What do you think of what I proposed about if we tried to communicate good debate etiquettes? Do you think this could help or not?

- LA




The problem with good debate etiquette, as i see it, is that there is only a section of the cm crowd that would actually use it. There are people like L'Tigress (yes, finger pointing) that enjoy poking the trolls and getting them riled up. And i have to admit i am guilty of my own troll poking - because as L'Tigress said, it is fun!
It would have to be written into the TOS, and would i think, take a lot of the fun out of CM.
Sad but true, we are like the people who go to Nascar - the crashes are the best thing about the whole thing. The rest is interesting but blood and gore is where its at. (please excuse the bad grammar)

quote:


Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are


Only to a point. I think eventually we get tired of them and start to ignore their posts and they go away because we are not biting anymore.

_____________________________

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Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/24/2010 4:37:26 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		very true - after a while the vitriol becomes boring and tedious, so everyone takes their toys and goes home.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why do you debate? - 1/24/2010 5:23:47 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I don't really see what I do here as debate since I'm not  here to try and convince anyone or to change their minds.

I just state my opinions and then let them go. If someone else got something from it then great. If not that's fine too.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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