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Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/24/2010 5:38:06 PM   
AAkasha


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Of course a submissive (more specifically, a bottom) enjoys submitting to bondage, pain or humiliation -- that's part of the process.  For me personally, I find that too much self indulgence, if it's totally dripping (so to speak), my enjoyment level decreases dramatically.  This may all have to do with my wiring and how my early BDSM experiences molded what turns me on when I dominate a man physically, but it's not something I have ever been able to get over.

By self indulgence, I mean behaviors during bondage, pain or humiliation that include too much talking/begging/asking for more or overt eagerness by hinting or suggesting or helping.   Another form of self indulgence is a sort of immediate/unprovoked demonstration of total surrender or degradation despite the fact that nothing really has been done - it's just how he wants to be, so he starts like that right out of the gate, because for him the enjoyment comes from the pathetic and groveling behavior.  It's like instant-worm, just add one stern look; and it's not that I don't enjoy making a man *pathetic* (VERY hot) - I just don't enjoy basically 'barely participating' in a man's instant-submission by being a prop.

I've had some really, really positive results at "undoing" this behavior.  Generally if I am with a "new bottom" or a sub that is inexperienced, or inexperienced with me personally, I tell him a little theory that works for me.  I sometimes see bottoming, for a man, as a love/hate thing - or a moth-to-the-flame thing, or another contrast type scenario.  I think many bottoms feel two conflicting things at the same time: Total desire, arousal and excitement - while, at the same time, feeling nervousness, fear, vulnerability, and helplessness.  And these see saw at times back and forth.  I remind them that as a femdom, and as a sadist, I am MUCH more motivated, excited, intoxicated by the latter emotions, so long as I know in my heart that the other stuff is true (yes, he is enjoying, yes, he is turned on, yes he is having the time of his life, and his submission is rewarding to him - for me).  When I get a "taste" of that vulnerability, fear, helplessness - that's what starts my momentum, urges, desires to push and push and push.  To peel more layers. 

But if I get bombarded with a type of instant, self indulgent kind of submission, those juices don't get flowing - at all, sometimes.  Sure, I can go through the motions, and yes, I can often correct the situation before it gets out of hand and unsalvageable - but it's not my ideal, and I don't think most men want that either.

Femdoms, do self indulgent type behaviors distract you, or do you enjoy that kind of response?
Subs - do you think your "style" as a bottom is something you control consciously - or is it out of your control? Have you ever had to change the way you react in order to please your top?

Akasha



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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/24/2010 6:39:11 PM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
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Status: offline 		I hate the whole idea of what you call "self-indulgent" sub behavior, whether it's asking for a certain "punishment", or instant surrender and supplication. It's not realistic to me, and feels so fake that I'm just not interested. Others Mileage May Vary, but my kink is her control, and my helplessness, and that means that she basically goes for what she wants. I'll hope that our interests overlap, and that if I perform adequately for her, she may enjoy giving me something that I like, but that's not guaranteed.

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 7:11:43 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Absolute total turn off for me!! Agreed!

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
By self indulgence, I mean behaviors during bondage, pain or humiliation that include too much talking/begging/asking for more or overt eagerness by hinting or suggesting or helping. 


Isn't that what ball gags were made for? ;-)

- LA


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 8:01:07 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		When I was a Domme I was disgusted by subs who would approach me and basically say, "I will do ANYTHING for you as long as you do (insert wish list) for me."  They weren't really into serving but into getting their own kinks filled.

Now that I am a slave, yes, I think that you can definitely show control as a bottom.  I have definitely made changes to please my Top.  Specifically because I have been a Domme I rarely make a request when it comes to a session, and when I do I am very careful with how I word it.  I do not beg for things, and if the answer is "no" or "some other time" I don't pout. 

No matter which side of the kneel we are on it is only right that we walk into the relationship with our own likes and dislikes.  While the Top should be looking out for the bottom's fulfillment things can easily get out of balance when the bottom becomes the star of the show.  I think that occasional denial of what the bottom asks for is a very good teaching lesson as a reminder of who has given their power over to whom.


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 8:44:31 AM   
twisted999


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Status: offline 		I agree with the above posters: A sub showing too much glee whilst being punished swings the mood from the sub being forced/degraded to the sub being entertained/spoiled. Some may still get off on the act alone, perhaps if they simply have a fetish, but for me it's the idea that I'm a little fearful of what this woman might do to me or make me do that really excites me. Humiliation is a great example of something that would never work if the sub embraced the act too much - it would cease to be degrading by fact that the sub didn't it consider at all objectionable.

For me, my desires are best when contradictory - an internal struggle between the respect I normally command and the desires I keep locked in my head.

< Message edited by twisted999 -- 1/25/2010 8:45:14 AM >

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 9:51:11 AM   
notinferior


Posts: 31
Joined: 10/29/2009
Status: offline 		I like the way you put it... "self-indulgent behavior", rather than calling any man who has particular desires a "do-me" sub.  For me it is the difference between strategic and tactical thinking.

Tactically speaking, which is to say thinking that involves day-to-day activities, I couldn't agree with you more.  The submissive who feels he can "improve" on what the dominant is doing is robbing himself of the opportunity to learn from her while, even worse, he is robbing her of the pleasure of truly being the decision maker.  This, at least for someone like me who's "trigger" is obedience, is not just a matter of times when people are "topping" and "bottomming" in an erotic "session".  It is also true when real-life, plain, ordinary, vanilla decisions are being made.  If one is a sub (in the TPE sense) then part of what gives him his sense of greatness is the surrender of his will to hers.  Likewise, she feels at her best when she knows that his level of confidence in her is absolute.  Thus, the sub who constantly tries, either through (too many) suggestions, pouting, manipulation, passive-aggressive behavior or any other means to influence the outcome of the dominant's will, robs both himself and the dominant of a reality of power exchange in favor of something far cheaper.

    The things that you describe as self-indulgent behavior are really nothing more than a subs way of trying to influence the dominant to become the sub.  Sometimes they are intentional and sometimes natural.  If the woman I adore demands cunnilingus from me, I will certainly be more exited than if she wants me to make her a ham sandwich.  I have no doubt that she will detect the difference in my preference no matter how much I want it to not exist.  However, a submissive man should endeavor to teach himself to be as excited about pleasing his dominant with something that is not on his personal "oh-yeah" list.  It is a matter of mental and emotional obedience.

    On the other hand, strategically speaking, meaning the preferences of both participants in the relationship, is a little different.  Yeah, I am going to make sure that the things that are "triggers" for me are also "triggers" for her.... at least a significant portion of the time.  If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.  When, how and if it will happen (tactical issues) are her decision, but that she likes it, well, if she doesn't we won't be a match.  Likewise, if she does not get exited at the thought of "correcting" my thoughts and behavior, we won't be a match.  How she chooses or wants to do that is entirely her decision.

    After all, this whole genre is about "self-indulgent" behavior.  If I just wanted to do something somebody else wants done, I can do it for anyone.  it is the fact that (1) we both take pleasure from similar things and (2) we are able to help each other grow in our desires and needs that makes D/s such a fascinating lifestyle.  Such, at least, are my thoughts on the subject.  Sorry to ramble.

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 9:55:55 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.


Is there such a woman?? And if so, has she had her head checked?? ;-)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/25/2010 9:56:09 AM >

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:00:49 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twisted999

I agree with the above posters: A sub showing too much glee whilst being punished swings the mood from the sub being forced/degraded to the sub being entertained/spoiled. Some may still get off on the act alone, perhaps if they simply have a fetish, but for me it's the idea that I'm a little fearful of what this woman might do to me or make me do that really excites me. Humiliation is a great example of something that would never work if the sub embraced the act too much - it would cease to be degrading by fact that the sub didn't it consider at all objectionable.

For me, my desires are best when contradictory - an internal struggle between the respect I normally command and the desires I keep locked in my head.


Yes - this is what I was getting at..and what I like to see.  I can't speak for all femdoms, but I know that many of us like that inner struggle and like vulnerability.  But even more, I think less femdoms really eroticize the overly-indulgent, instant-worm type of bottoming which seems fairly common in subs that have not had much real life experience yet.  And it comes back to the fact that they don't know how they are supposed to behave, more importantly, they don't know *what turns a dominant woman on* - because all they have had to figure this out is looking at porn (created by men) or relying on their fantasies.

In most cases, if a bottom is told, "I don't really like it when you behave in that manner -- just tone down x, y and z" AND is also told, "It really, really, really makes me wet when you do this instead," he's able to adapt and move on. 

The real roadblock comes when his *fetish* is to behave in than manner in the presence of a dominant woman - and what you are really asking him to change is what attracts him to submission in the first place.  Yikes!

Akasha


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:03:37 AM   
SolangeRichards


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.


Is there such a woman?? And if so, has she had her head checked?? ;-)

- LA


There is at least one, I know as I dated her.

She is smart, witty, sophisticated and quite sane in point of fact as well as being one of the most carnal people I have ever met. Cunnilingus was just not something that lit her skyrockets, which was OK as she was very happy to show me the things that did....

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:10:32 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SolangeRichards


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.


Is there such a woman?? And if so, has she had her head checked?? ;-)

- LA


There is at least one, I know as I dated her.

She is smart, witty, sophisticated and quite sane in point of fact as well as being one of the most carnal people I have ever met. Cunnilingus was just not something that lit her skyrockets, which was OK as she was very happy to show me the things that did....


I'm sure there are more than one ;-) I was being cheeky... as I sometimes do.

- LA


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:36:23 AM   
notinferior


Posts: 31
Joined: 10/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.


Is there such a woman?? And if so, has she had her head checked?? ;-)

- LA


I once had a piece of land in Upstate New York.  It was about thirty acres and had a massive pond in the center, over eight acres in size.  The pond was deep enough to hold-over trout, walleye and the nicest perch you ever tasted.  When I sold it, the first person to look at it said: "Nice piece of land.  I'd probably snap it up in an instant if damn near a quarter of it weren't under water."   When it comes to personal preferences, they just don't have to make sense.

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:36:56 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I think you've posted something similar to this in the past, Aakasha.  I thought it was a subject we had discussed here before, or at least some variation of it.

The quickest way to turn Me off about any particular act or kink, is to start bugging Me about it in that whiny, manipulative sort of way.  I'll drop My interest in it like a hot potato.  To Me, there's a huge difference between My sub coming to Me and making a specific request, than harping on Me because he has one thing in particular in mind.  I would rather not top at all than to suddenly be in the position of being someone's service top.


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:45:30 AM   
BreathandStone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.


Is there such a woman?? And if so, has she had her head checked?? ;-)

- LA


I'm not a big fan.  The sensations can be enjoyable, but it doesn't get into my head in the right way. 


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 10:50:29 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BreathandStone

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

If a woman just plain doesn't care for cunnilingus.... we aren't going to be a match.


Is there such a woman?? And if so, has she had her head checked?? ;-)

- LA


I'm not a big fan.  The sensations can be enjoyable, but it doesn't get into my head in the right way. 



Gosh... I guess I'll have to make my winkie a bit bigger next time ;-)

- LA


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 11:04:20 AM   
notinferior


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Gosh... I guess I'll have to make my winkie a bit bigger next time ;-)

- LA

[/quote]

Your Winkie is just perfect.  It isn't the size, but how you use punctuate it that counts (I am not sure that actually makes any sense)

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 12:17:56 PM   
BreathandStone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Gosh... I guess I'll have to make my winkie a bit bigger next time ;-)



My, LA, what a big winkie you have. 

I did see it earlier, but cunnilingus is another one of those things that dominant women are "supposed" to enjoy.  I'm not offended by the joke, but I can't quite hold myself back from pointing out that some of us really don't like that particular act. 

Really, I'm just waiting for a submissive man who likes going down on women to get offended at me for belittling his kink. 


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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 12:18:09 PM   
MsHValentine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha



Femdoms, do self indulgent type behaviors distract you, or do you enjoy that kind of response?
Subs - do you think your "style" as a bottom is something you control consciously - or is it out of your control? Have you ever had to change the way you react in order to please your top?

Akasha



I wouldn't expect a Bottom to not be self-indulgent.

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 12:21:16 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BreathandStone

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Gosh... I guess I'll have to make my winkie a bit bigger next time ;-)



My, LA, what a big winkie you have. 

I did see it earlier, but cunnilingus is another one of those things that dominant women are "supposed" to enjoy.  I'm not offended by the joke, but I can't quite hold myself back from pointing out that some of us really don't like that particular act. 

Really, I'm just waiting for a submissive man who likes going down on women to get offended at me for belittling his kink. 



I could send you a few who don't like to do it. They didn't last long with me ;-)
In all seriousness, I respect the kink, the desire or absense of kink or desire. No worries.

- LA

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 12:45:26 PM   
notinferior


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[/quote]

Really, I'm just waiting for a submissive man who likes going down on women to get offended at me for belittling his kink. 

[/quote]


Hmm....  I am tempted to do so just to give you the opportunity to show me how stupid such a statement would be..... but I won't.  I agree with you, it's sad that we all have such preconceived notions.  Frankly, I have never found the male-centric side of that act to be particularly satisfying (perhaps because I prefer to be the do-er over being the do-ee, does that make me a subbie?)

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RE: Does a self-indulgent bottom frustrate you? - 1/25/2010 1:40:14 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Subs - do you think your "style" as a bottom is something you control consciously - or is it out of your control? Have you ever had to change the way you react in order to please your top?

Akasha




I went into my very first in-person BDSM session with the idea that I should be stoical and prove that I could suffer in silence. Afterwards the lady who had been inflicting the suffering calmly explained that she wanted to see more responsiveness, so next time I abandoned my stoicism and gasped, groaned and occasionally screamed my way through the experience. I was with her for long enough that a certain amount of moaning under the lash became second nature - only now I belong to a woman who lives in a townhouse with thin walls and judgemental neighbours, so I've had to learn to lower the volume again. So yes, I think some aspects of my bottoming style can be consciously controlled. Perhaps it helps that I typically don't drift off into "subspace", but stay more or less awake and grounded.

I know what you mean, by the way, about a conflict between feeling excited and feeling scared and vulnerable. It's almost like my consciousness is divided into two completely different levels. At one level I'm trapped in the moment, hurting and suffering and wanting it to stop. But at another, higher level I'm floating above the moment, in the sense that I can think about my situation with some semblance of objectivity and get incredibly aroused by the fact that I'm going through all that suffering at the hands of a wonderful female sadist. The compromise these two levels seem to have worked out is that the lower one controls my facial expression while the higher one controls my genitals, so that I end up with fear in my eyes - and an erection.

It's all a bit complicated, and after years of thinking about it I'm still not sure I understand it completely. Sometimes I think I should sit down and write a serious essay about it, but I'm not sure what I'd do with an essay like that.

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