Unintentional sexism?

Unintentional sexism? (Full Version)

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SubRoar -> Unintentional sexism? (1/30/2010 8:21:20 PM)
I've noticed a...let's call it disturbing trend in some of the branches of femdom. (Specifically in fictional portrayals created by the submissive male or similar views held by the same.) It seems a slightly ugly undercurrent of sexism runs through some specific fetishes, particularly some types of feminisation. (Not all, many things are at play here and specifics vary from person to person.) But there seems to be an understanding that there is something demeaning and intensely "undesirable" about being a woman-that it represents something "lower" then male. Something that is intensely shameful and, dare I say, inferior. (Something that the dominate female is seen to be exempt from so to speak. I could prattle on about high-school level Freudian theories here as well, but I'll spare you.) Now, I'm assuming that this point of view isn't seen in most dominates, and there in lies my question: Have you ever run across this viewpoint? Do you think it's really a problem or should I really just relax? (Kudos to anyone that recognised what that's from.) Inquiring minds want to know.

DVsFox -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/30/2010 9:06:31 PM)
I think there is a lot of unintentional sexism in the feminization circles. That being said, there is also a lot of feminization that deals with positive images, and not with humiliation and inferiority. We my Owner and I practice feminization, it's never humiliating nor is it degrading. It's cool and uplifting. I also don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with people who practice it in the opposite way. I think it's mostly harmless sexism, and there is such a thing. I can thing of times where I've seen it and its been very offensive, but that's life. I'm not feeling eloquent tonight, so I'll just leave it at that. My Owner and I just got back from driving through the icy wonderland. :-p' DV's Fox

LadyAngelika -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/30/2010 10:04:13 PM)
quote: Now, I'm assuming that this point of view isn't seen in most dominates, and there in lies my question: Have you ever run across this viewpoint? Do you think it's really a problem or should I really just relax? (Kudos to anyone that recognised what that's from.) Inquiring minds want to know. Edited to add that dominate is a verb. We are dominants, not dominates. One of the biggest turn offs for me was when a man asked me to reduce him to a woman. I blocked him right away. Though I don't think that most of the serious feminized women see it as being reduced. In fact, just this evening, SolangeRichards, a trans submissive, wrote on another thread in response to compliments to her pictures: quote: Thanks very much LA and Zephyr, your kind words matter... You know though, it really was just a matter of looking at the women I knew that I liked and admired and just trying to be like them, if only for a moment captured by a camera I understand the desire some men have to feminize, first hand actually. What I will never understand though is the interest of some in reducing it to the most shallow of levels when there is such richness and wonderment just a little further beyond the obvious.... So I'm not sure about the trend bit... maybe, but then again maybe not. - LA

SubRoar -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/30/2010 10:15:34 PM)
Angelika, I would place trans in a separate group then the one I had mentioned above. As far as the "richness" and "wonderment" comment, I believe the more "vanilla" cross-dressing scene places a large emphasis on being like "woman of value" rather then then negative stereotype as well. On my use of the term trend, perhaps it's just a case of the loudest, rudest voices making the most lasting impression (at least on me, a relative newbie)?

LadyAngelika -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/30/2010 10:25:08 PM)
quote: On my use of the term trend, perhaps it's just a case of the loudest, rudest voices making the most lasting impression (at least on me, a relative newbie)? I talk about that often acutally. And it's just not you. Everytime I hear someone say "I notice that a lot of people aren't into X, discriminate against X, criticize X" I always point out that we look for patterns. It's human. :) In research, we call this bias. When we have a theory, we are always looking for evidence to support this theory. This is why researchers put all these tests and guidelines in place so that they can be objective. - LA

Lucienne -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 3:28:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubRoar But there seems to be an understanding that there is something demeaning and intensely "undesirable" about being a woman-that it represents something "lower" then male. Something that is intensely shameful and, dare I say, inferior. With such types, I'm not sure how to credit the sexism as "unintentional" since it seems to be the foundation of the entire enterprise. Generally speaking, I'd say-- yes, these guys exist and no, most dominant women do not appear to care for the dynamic. Although, as with most things, I'm sure there are some women who enjoy "shaming" a man by feminizing him. Personally, I'd find the attitude loathsome, but I'm not sure how harmful it is at the end of the day. It's not like it's the last cultural outpost of thinking women are inferior and if we stamp it out it's like eradicating polio. And in my limited exposure to people who get off on being "humiliated," they don't show much imagination in how that humiliation occurs (or any interest in the humiliation having any foundation in fact) so it's not particularly surprising that they'd fall back on misogynistic elements of the culture for a quick fix.

Elisabella -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 3:41:26 AM)
-FR- I would feel absolutely humiliated if I were turned into a boy for play. Feminizing a man is humiliating because it undermines his masculinity, the same way masculizing (?) a woman would undermine her femininity. I think the motive behind the play is less "I am making you inferior because women are inferior" and more just "I am humiliating you by taking away your masculinity." Kinda like the way male doms have their slaves shave their head - they're stripping away their femininity. I'm sure there are some forced-femme submissives who think that women are inferior and that's the motivation, but I don't think that humiliation at being forced to portray a gender you don't identify as is necessarily based in sexism. I don't think you'd tell a transexual that they are sexist against their birth sex because they feel uncomfortable being viewed as that gender, even though they may feel the same sense of shame and humiliation. It's more that they're uncomfortable because they're being put in a gender role they don't identify with.

SolangeRichards -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 6:27:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SubRoar I've noticed a...let's call it disturbing trend in some of the branches of femdom. (Specifically in fictional portrayals created by the submissive male or similar views held by the same.) It seems a slightly ugly undercurrent of sexism runs through some specific fetishes, particularly some types of feminisation. (Not all, many things are at play here and specifics vary from person to person.) But there seems to be an understanding that there is something demeaning and intensely "undesirable" about being a woman-that it represents something "lower" then male. Something that is intensely shameful and, dare I say, inferior. (Something that the dominate female is seen to be exempt from so to speak. I could prattle on about high-school level Freudian theories here as well, but I'll spare you.) Now, I'm assuming that this point of view isn't seen in most dominates, and there in lies my question: Have you ever run across this viewpoint? Do you think it's really a problem or should I really just relax? (Kudos to anyone that recognised what that's from.) Inquiring minds want to know. Well, there in fact is a disturbing trend and it goes far beyond forced femme scenarios or BDSM in general. It's real, it's provable and the evidence of it is all around you. It's in every courtroom a rapist is allowed to say his victim "asked for it" by wearing the clothing of her own choice. It's in every company that pays men higher than women doing the same work. It's in every nation that treats women as chattel. It seems like a small thing, those scenarios of a man being "stripped" of his masculinity and then facing a future of being less of a man, of being a sort of woman formed by his weakness and to be forever barred from manhood. It matters though, because what it speaks to are some fundamental injustices being done to women in general across the globe. There's a topic that pops up often in TG forums relating to tomboys and sissies. Everybody likes that cheeky tomboy climbing trees, catching frogs and acting like one of boys . Her brother though, the one that loves being with his mother and playing with dolls, well, he's got some issues and they need to be fixed pronto! "We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters." ~Gloria Steinem So yes, it's there, that trend....

DianeB269 -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 6:48:01 AM)
OP, Men dressed as women forced or not is a huge turn off for me... Diane

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 6:54:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DVsFox I think there is a lot of unintentional sexism in the feminization circles. That being said, there is also a lot of feminization that deals with positive images, and not with humiliation and inferiority. We my Owner and I practice feminization, it's never humiliating nor is it degrading. It's cool and uplifting. I also don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with people who practice it in the opposite way. I think it's mostly harmless sexism, and there is such a thing. I can thing of times where I've seen it and its been very offensive, but that's life. I'm not feeling eloquent tonight, so I'll just leave it at that. My Owner and I just got back from driving through the icy wonderland. :-p' DV's Fox I think in some ways it may be quite freeing. Expression is limited for males in both emotion and creativity through dress. So I imagine being able to "play" with all thats feminine could be quite liberating to a man.

Lucienne -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 7:25:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DianeB269 OP, Men dressed as women forced or not is a huge turn off for me... Every time I see a post like this, I move closer to Team cloudboy. Which sucks. Because it's so much easier to enjoy the forum if you ignore this shit.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 7:30:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: DianeB269 OP, Men dressed as women forced or not is a huge turn off for me... Every time I see a post like this, I move closer to Team cloudboy. Which sucks. Because it's so much easier to enjoy the forum if you ignore this shit. Why is what she said wrong? She is a Mistress and she stated her preference. I talked about how freeing it is, and yet its not a turn on for me either. One of my best friends is transgendered and I would be happy to go shopping with someone to help them buy clothes, but I would not want to be with them. For some Dommes forcing feminization is not something they would do either. FOr some the fact that its "forced is the turn off. For others its whether Dominant or submissive, some women want their men to be the definition of masculine.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 7:36:51 AM)
once again, well said, Solange! You manage to say exactly what I'm thinking, only in a much more eloquent way than I ever could. Thank you for yet another very well-written post. zeph

Lucienne -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 7:51:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: DianeB269 OP, Men dressed as women forced or not is a huge turn off for me... Every time I see a post like this, I move closer to Team cloudboy. Which sucks. Because it's so much easier to enjoy the forum if you ignore this shit. Why is what she said wrong? She is a Mistress and she stated her preference. I talked about how freeing it is, and yet its not a turn on for me either. One of my best friends is transgendered and I would be happy to go shopping with someone to help them buy clothes, but I would not want to be with them. For some Dommes forcing feminization is not something they would do either. FOr some the fact that its "forced is the turn off. For others its whether Dominant or submissive, some women want their men to be the definition of masculine. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with being turned off by cross-dressing. I think her statement of her preference in response to an OP that in no way asked if she was turned on by this supports the general observation that cross-dressers get a lot of negative feedback around here. The question was about sexism. Have others noticed this, do they consider it problematic, etc. I'm not sure the OP could have phrased it any less wankery. There's an element of the OP that could be fairly considered as approval-seeking behavior. I chose to respond and approve of a man noticing and thinking about the effects of sexism. Diane chose to respond and disapprove of a man interested in cross-dressing. Her response bolsters, in my mind, some of the arguments that I've seen cloudboy make about excessive smack-downs of CDs made in this forum. My response is not about the many attitudes a woman could have towards cross-dressing. It's about how and when negative attitudes about it are manifested in this particular forum.

DianeB269 -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 7:57:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: DianeB269 OP, Men dressed as women forced or not is a huge turn off for me... Every time I see a post like this, I move closer to Team cloudboy. Which sucks. Because it's so much easier to enjoy the forum if you ignore this shit. LOL...... If you wanted to ingnoe me, WTF did you reply?

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 8:17:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne quote: ORIGINAL: DianeB269 OP, Men dressed as women forced or not is a huge turn off for me... Every time I see a post like this, I move closer to Team cloudboy. Which sucks. Because it's so much easier to enjoy the forum if you ignore this shit. Why is what she said wrong? She is a Mistress and she stated her preference. I talked about how freeing it is, and yet its not a turn on for me either. One of my best friends is transgendered and I would be happy to go shopping with someone to help them buy clothes, but I would not want to be with them. For some Dommes forcing feminization is not something they would do either. FOr some the fact that its "forced is the turn off. For others its whether Dominant or submissive, some women want their men to be the definition of masculine. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with being turned off by cross-dressing. I think her statement of her preference in response to an OP that in no way asked if she was turned on by this supports the general observation that cross-dressers get a lot of negative feedback around here. The question was about sexism. Have others noticed this, do they consider it problematic, etc. I'm not sure the OP could have phrased it any less wankery. There's an element of the OP that could be fairly considered as approval-seeking behavior. I chose to respond and approve of a man noticing and thinking about the effects of sexism. Diane chose to respond and disapprove of a man interested in cross-dressing. Her response bolsters, in my mind, some of the arguments that I've seen cloudboy make about excessive smack-downs of CDs made in this forum. My response is not about the many attitudes a woman could have towards cross-dressing. It's about how and when negative attitudes about it are manifested in this particular forum. I have never been part of the "Diane Fan club", so this is purely observation. You read WAY to much into her statement. I didnt see it as a personal put down.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 8:21:06 AM)
So yes there is still some negativity toward women and yes some forced Feminization is humiliating because women are seen as "inferior". As far as the Dommes doing it thinking women are inferior...I would say no. As far as Dommes thinking the sub sees it as so and uses that to her advantage....yes. I think Dom/mes involved in mental play can take society mores and go against them to humiliate because of whats ingrained in us.

Lucienne -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 8:31:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 You read WAY to much into her statement. I didnt see it as a personal put down. I don't think it was intended as a personal put down. And perhaps not received as one. I was looking at it at a meta level (where the hazards of reading WAY too much into things are always present). Just something cloudboy wrote last week about how those sorts of messages come across that's been sticking in my craw. quote: I think Dom/mes involved in mental play can take society mores and go against them to humiliate because of whats ingrained in us. Agreed. And I think the OP's question - is this harmful - is pretty interesting. I'm leaning towards not-so-much but I'm open to arguments to the contrary.

Lucienne -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 8:37:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DianeB269 LOL...... If you wanted to ingnoe me, WTF did you reply? I said it's easier to enjoy the forum when I ignore shit like that. That's how injustice, no matter how quiet and small, works.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Unintentional sexism? (1/31/2010 8:54:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SolangeRichards Well, there in fact is a disturbing trend and it goes far beyond forced femme scenarios or BDSM in general. It's real, it's provable and the evidence of it is all around you. It's in every courtroom a rapist is allowed to say his victim "asked for it" by wearing the clothing of her own choice. It's in every company that pays men higher than women doing the same work. It's in every nation that treats women as chattel. It seems like a small thing, those scenarios of a man being "stripped" of his masculinity and then facing a future of being less of a man, of being a sort of woman formed by his weakness and to be forever barred from manhood. It matters though, because what it speaks to are some fundamental injustices being done to women in general across the globe. There's a topic that pops up often in TG forums relating to tomboys and sissies. Everybody likes that cheeky tomboy climbing trees, catching frogs and acting like one of boys . Her brother though, the one that loves being with his mother and playing with dolls, well, he's got some issues and they need to be fixed pronto! "We've begun to raise daughters more like sons... but few have the courage to raise our sons more like our daughters." ~Gloria Steinem So yes, it's there, that trend.... Quoted for brilliance. - LA

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