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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 2:58:48 PM

tazzygirl

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LOL

Short of a George Burns encounter, no one's opinion will be changed.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 4:28:30 PM

mcbride

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So, someone says "various positions in a debate can each pull out contradictory Hitler quotes and evidence" about ol' Adolf and Christianity.

Well, except that the Hitler quotes were not contradictory at all. In fact, they're really simple. In public, he mouthed platitudes about God and Providence, sometimes explicitly Christian. In private, he was withering about his contempt for Christianity. There's absolutely no confusion about this. Hitler called it "the Jewish Christ-creed with its effeminate, pity-ethics". There are dozens of quotes, like this one:

"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."

In the public eye, Hitler occasionally weaved in Christian references when the occasion demanded it, to mask what were obviously anti-Christian values and maintain support from voters. He was very clear about why he didn't take the churches head-on: "the main thing is to be clever in this matter and not to look for a struggle where it can be avoided," and "it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches."

But Hitler was very clear about what he had in store for Christians: "Christianity is an invention of sick brains....The war will be over one day. I shall then consider that my life's final task will be to solve the religious problem. "

"For the moment I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them."

And this: "The evil that is gnawing at our vitals is our priests, of both creeds. I can't at present give them the answer they've been asking for but...it's all written down in my big book. The time will come when I'll settle my account with them."

Is that unclear? Is that complicated?

It gets even simpler when you just look at his actions. As I said elsewhere, Hitler had Christians murdered, kicked out of public jobs, and jailed, while he confiscated church property, closed religious schools, shut down Christian organizations, censored or shut down Christian newspapers and publications, and had their editors killed in death camps.

Hands up, everyone who thinks that's unclear.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 282

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 7:01:26 PM

GotSteel

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Honestly I don't really care enough about that topic to get into a debate with you which is why I'd stayed out of it previously. I only ventured in at all because the existence of god wiki amused me and I thought it only fair to eyesopened that I put up a post of some substance rather than just cracking a joke.

(in reply to mcbride)

Post #: 283

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 7:06:01 PM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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sometimes i hate being invisible

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 284

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 8:36:39 PM

CountrySong

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Tazzygirl - Nor would i start a war based upon religion.
Lady Angelika - You might not have started a war based on religion but I suggest that you open up one or two history books or today's newspaper for that matter. You might find a couple.
If you start with the theory that we can only prove that we exist because we think we do then statements above prove that God exists simply because people believe he does!

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Post #: 285

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 9:09:08 PM

CountrySong

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Tazzygirl - There are no exceptions according to the bible, as i posted earlier. Take the Lord's name in vain, and you would have been stoned. As i have pointed out, earlier as well, that we have come to an age of elightenment. Of course no one is perfect. But to say.. opps.. i made a mistake, forgive me... and then do the same mistake again... opps.. i made a mistake again.. forgive me again... im sorry... but its MY belief this is someone who does not follow the christian teachings. Neither did Jim Jones when he had his flock drink poinsoned kool aid. You are half right. A christian is one who believes in the teachings of Christ. Christ never taught us it was cool to lie, steal or murder, among other things. How anyone can accept these as teachings, therefore accept someone who commits such acts as a christian... the two are in direct opposition to each other. Its like stating you are a republican, yet advocating and promoting every liberal idea that comes down the pipe.

Someone can claim to be whatever they wish... the proof is in the pudding.

Tazzy, there are many flavors of pudding! Which Christianity (Traditional, Gnostic, Jewish, Etc?) and which bible are you talking about?
I think Jim Jones was a Christian though I do not believe what he did was right. He is just another in the long line of Christians that have found a way to justify killing. A sad part of our faith but real. it also is very present in the Jewish, Mormon, and Muslim faiths.
If you really look at the core Christian and Muslim faiths the total faith is based on destroying, torturing, and killing everyone who does not believe the way you do. Hence the phrases -"Judgement" and "Burn In Hell!"
It is not that hard to justify killing others based on the Bible. Hate will always exist and faith will always be used to justify it because the very foundations of most faiths is hate - us against them. With the possible exception of Buddhism which seems to be more about us against ourselves.
As for Mr Jones I think he justified what he did using some of these verses.

Matthew 24:9
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:12
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

_____________________________

Cowboy clown and cowboy poet!
Jouster of windmills.
Knight in tarnished armor.
Rescuer of damsels who don't want to be rescued.
Dreamer of Impossible Dreams

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 286

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 9:10:49 PM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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i still say the bible is a work of fiction, much like the Gor series and all history books.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/7/2010 9:34:14 PM

domiguy

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Do I strongly believe?...No. Is there room for doubt? Sure.

Not much but there is some. For instance where and how did life begin? The answer does start the beginning of a conversation.

Jesus walked on this Earth. That is a fact. Did he die and that was the end of it all? Probably.

But the words Jesus spoke are for the most part wonderful. Few people choose to live them, especially those that seem to promote his message the loudest.

I view the Bible in particular the New Testament as a fairly interesting read.

You may not believe it in it's entirety or at all but if you take the words to heart regardless of whether Jesus is the son of God or not you will leave this world a better place than you found it.

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Post #: 288

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 4:54:21 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CountrySong

Tazzygirl - Nor would i start a war based upon religion.
Lady Angelika - You might not have started a war based on religion but I suggest that you open up one or two history books or today's newspaper for that matter. You might find a couple.
If you start with the theory that we can only prove that we exist because we think we do then statements above prove that God exists simply because people believe he does!

Based on that theory, if I thought that Smurfs existed, they would?

I will agree that "the concept of God" exists. And who knows, I might be wrong and he actually might exist. I just find it highly improbable that God exists and live my life as if he doesn't. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking. I don't see how that is so hard for people to understand and respect.

Now the OP was about Brain sharing an article where someone is trying to convert Atheists. When I see stuff like that, I ignore it like I ignore the Mormons and J-Ws that will come knock on your door. Not interested and I just go about my business.

Belief is a highly personal thing. I think it's great to share our beliefs and discuss them but let people come up with their own belief system.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 2/8/2010 5:00:03 AM >

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Post #: 289

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 5:06:43 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
You may not believe it in it's entirety or at all but if you take the words to heart regardless of whether Jesus is the son of God or not you will leave this world a better place than you found it.

Having met a group of Christians who really tried to do this, I have to disagree that this is necessarily true. They were all homeless squatting on BLM land because of this passage:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." -Matthew 19:21

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 290

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 5:18:29 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
You may not believe it in it's entirety or at all but if you take the words to heart regardless of whether Jesus is the son of God or not you will leave this world a better place than you found it.

Having met a group of Christians who really tried to do this, I have to disagree that this is necessarily true. They were all homeless squatting on BLM land because of this passage:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." -Matthew 19:21

Then they just didn't have the stones to actually try to do this because if they wanted to follow this passage they would not be squatting on BLM land they would be going from town to town, healing the sick and preaching a message of hope, love, and charity. [in my best 'Get Smart' voice...] They missed it by that much...

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Post #: 291

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 5:30:10 AM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Tazzy, there are many flavors of pudding! Which Christianity (Traditional, Gnostic, Jewish, Etc?) and which bible are you talking about?
I think Jim Jones was a Christian though I do not believe what he did was right. He is just another in the long line of Christians that have found a way to justify killing. A sad part of our faith but real. it also is very present in the Jewish, Mormon, and Muslim faiths.
If you really look at the core Christian and Muslim faiths the total faith is based on destroying, torturing, and killing everyone who does not believe the way you do. Hence the phrases -"Judgement" and "Burn In Hell!"
It is not that hard to justify killing others based on the Bible. Hate will always exist and faith will always be used to justify it because the very foundations of most faiths is hate - us against them. With the possible exception of Buddhism which seems to be more about us against ourselves.
As for Mr Jones I think he justified what he did using some of these verses.

Not one of those verses has a thing to do with suicide or killing of the faithful. They have to do with the persecution of such at the hands of non-believers. Christianity is not all about hatred, unless thats all you wish to see. And here, its convenient for many to believe such. Even Cline disagrees with the idea of hatred being the seed of religion. But i will leave that for you to dig up yourself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to CountrySong)

Post #: 292

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 5:33:40 AM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
Then they just didn't have the stones to actually try to do this because if they wanted to follow this passage they would not be squatting on BLM land they would be going from town to town, healing the sick and preaching a message of hope, love, and charity. [in my best 'Get Smart' voice...] They missed it by that much...

Actually it's my understanding that they were traveling from one piece of BLM land to another and carrying on a ministry.....I'm not sure if they were giving exorcisms though.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 293

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 9:02:06 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
You may not believe it in it's entirety or at all but if you take the words to heart regardless of whether Jesus is the son of God or not you will leave this world a better place than you found it.

Having met a group of Christians who really tried to do this, I have to disagree that this is necessarily true. They were all homeless squatting on BLM land because of this passage:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." -Matthew 19:21

This is a tad bit disingenuous....It is what people do. They take what they like and discard much which does not appeal to them.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat.

I am by no means a strong believer. Unlike so many, I can see the vast oceans that lie between what Jesus preached and religion. The two are so often completely unrelated.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/8/2010 9:09:10 AM >

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Post #: 294

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 12:38:27 PM

GotSteel

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Well I obviously can't accurately defend that weird little cults beliefs but I spent a few hours discussing them with it's leader and was exposed to some of the spiel. As such, I would suspect that they would respond to your bible passages by saying something along the lines of they were doing the Lords work and then wander off into a history lesson about how Jesus and his followers lived the same way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
This is a tad bit disingenuous....It is what people do. They take what they like and discard much which does not appeal to them.

I agree with you on this, the bible is so self-contradictory and internally inconsistent that people either have to pick and choose or do the most bizarre, disingenuous mental gymnastics to reconcile it's contradictory teachings.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 295

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 1:01:26 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I thought He was dead. Fuckin' Neitszche lied to me, man!

He meant the belief in God is dead....as seen in the parable of the mad man....

So you're still mates....don't cut him adrift just yet!

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 296

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/8/2010 1:07:12 PM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
I am by no means a strong believer. Unlike so many, I can see the vast oceans that lie between what Jesus preached and religion. The two are so often completely unrelated.

I have to agree with you. Most of what I see coming from "christians" doesn't seem to resemble much of what Jesus had to say.

The message was pretty simple: "Don't be an asshole, but realise some people will be assholes and don't let it get to you so much. Don't sweat the small stuff. Treat other people the way you'd like to be treated. You are loved, even when you are unlovely." At least that's a synopsis of what I get out of the New Testament.

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 297

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