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RE: Sub or slave? - 4/3/2006 10:58:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: candybox

A SUB IS THERE FOR THEIR PLEASURE.......A SLAVE IS THERE FOR THEIR MASTERS PLEASURE

i completely disagree....i consider myself a submissive, and i am not there for my own pleasure, i am there for the mutual pleasure of me and whomever i am with....and i call who i am with if it is very committed, Master....i am not a slave, because i have WAY to many opinions for that....but i am definitly not in it for myself

(in reply to candybox)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/3/2006 11:24:34 PM

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How come no one ever asks the difference between a sub and a hero?

(in reply to TaintedBeauty)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 1:05:24 AM

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a hero is toasted right? giggle

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Kneeling trembling at your feet

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 2:45:35 AM

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I answer this question only for myself and nobody else.

Personally, I don't differentiate between a 'sub' and a 'slave'. To me, 'slave' is just a sexy word for a sub.

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 3:00:03 AM

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I have always found that in this day and age it comes down to trust. When a submissive has learned that the person they are with thinks first what is best for the relationship, Then what is best for the submissive, Then what it is they want. The submissive no longer worries about themself for they know there wants and needs are being taken care of. They will slowly turn into a slave for they know the person they are with would never ask of them anything they could not handle or anything that was not in there best intrest. A submissive can and will say no. A slave can but will not say no.

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 1:08:38 PM

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The main thing is whatever you negotiate. Don't let others label what you and your Dom/Master have. Every relationship is different.

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 1:36:42 PM

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I'm new to the lifestyle

and I must say this question has been on my mind.

It seems many dom's and master have questioned this of me in some way due to my profile. I suppose upon reading this information and point of views that I know can feel quite comfortable saying I'm a sub w/ slave tendencies. With trust over time I may just become his slave. Just as Sir4Now has stated. Thank you for putting it in perspective.

< Message edited by acctonthelook -- 4/4/2006 1:37:44 PM >

(in reply to Crittersmaster)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 1:40:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

How come no one ever asks the difference between a sub and a hero?

a hero beats a sub every time?

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/4/2006 4:12:24 PM

MasterRenegade77

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From: Upstate N.Y. (Broome Co.)
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My Understanding of this is,
A submissive has her own Limits
A slave has her Master's Limits

(in reply to IrishMist)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/5/2006 2:48:04 AM

Mavis

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The best definition i have ever heard is "a sub negotiates for her own pleasure, a slave cannot. her pleasures, wants, and needs are determined and provided for by Master."

(remember, a slave can still vote with her feet, although it often can be assumed she will probably serve One for life, unless He habitually fails to cover her needs.)

i am a slave. i began with Master as a Dom/ sub. At that stage, i still needed the ability to negotiate freely... to make sure i had ample knowledge of who He is, and who i would become under Him.

Once i had enough history and experience with Him to be sure He was always operating with my long term best interests at heart, i was able to give up that right to negotiate, and obey blind in (rare) cases where it was needed.   He was watching out for my needs, so i didn't have to, i could focus on His needs, and let Him decide which of my wants are granted and what is a true need.

When i feel part of myself threatened, if i get that panicy feeling Master is going someplace i don't want to give up, i "go sub" and revert to negotiating. (examples, an emotional reaction to a topic, a hot button, a limit that isn't something i need to protect myself, but i have held on to as a personal tradition, etc.)   That's not always bad.   It is a resistance stage in a way, but that tells us there is a new stage of development coming for me, a new place to work on.

i am a slave, but i operate in more than one mode... i also have a submissive mode, and a nilla woman mode, and i choose which mode of operation i am in based on situation. It is my goal and desire that i operate in the slave mode automatically, but that would be like being all grown up, and i can barely imagine that. :)

** Please forgive the genderism here, i do not mean to leave out F/m ppl, only addressing my own world.
** as noted everywhere.. single definitions do NOT apply across the board, and others have different ideas of what works for them, but this is what works for me.

(in reply to MasterRenegade77)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/6/2006 11:12:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TaintedBeauty

I consider my self a sub, but at the same token have been told I lean more towards the slave aspect. I want to know from a Dom's point of view..what is the difference between the two?

All the difference in the world, and no difference at all. I'd rather know who you are, then what you are. Personal theory here, but I think the reason so many bdsm relationships turn ugly and end quickly, is people are too focused on labels, and not enough on people. When I find the right woman, how she defines or expresses her submission is only one part of a much bigger package. Obviously, I'm thinking in the sense of a bigger relationship than just "me dom, you sub". I'm looking for a life partner. For those who aren't, I can see then having different priorities. Call me cocky, but when I find the right woman, I'm confident we can find a way to scratch each other's itches. And if not, I can always lock her in a closet till she comes around to my POV>

(in reply to TaintedBeauty)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/8/2006 12:31:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

The best definition i have ever heard is "a sub negotiates for her own pleasure, a slave cannot. her pleasures, wants, and needs are determined and provided for by Master."

i am a slave. i began with Master as a Dom/ sub. At that stage, i still needed the ability to negotiate freely... to make sure i had ample knowledge of who He is, and who i would become under Him.

Once i had enough history and experience with Him to be sure He was always operating with my long term best interests at heart, i was able to give up that right to negotiate, and obey blind in (rare) cases where it was needed.   He was watching out for my needs, so i didn't have to, i could focus on His needs, and let Him decide which of my wants are granted and what is a true need.
When i feel part of myself threatened, if i get that panicy feeling Master is going someplace i don't want to give up, i "go sub" and revert to negotiating.

First extremely well said!! For me being new, that's exactly the kind of Dom & trust level that could take me places!

(in reply to Mavis)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/8/2006 1:12:46 PM

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My thoughts... there are a variety of people who call themselves slaves.

A submissive negotiates for her own pleasure, a slave doesn't negotiate because the complete lack of control is her pleasure.
or~
A slave is a submissive who is in a relationship which, for them, is so ideal, and the respect so complete, that they choose the label slave.
or~
Alternatively, a slave is a person with a perceived lack of "entitlement" to choice due to low self worth or self esteem. These, in my opinion, are least likely to remain in a relationship due to them entering into a relationship with a host of "problems", regardless of whether they meet an abusive Sadist or a White Knight Dom. As their problems are psychological, it is likely that the D/s relationship won't be a cure, merely (potentially) a continuance of abuse which likely caused their problems... I'd recommend psychotherapy instead.
or~
A slave is a fantasist. A slave can walk away in today's society. I also think a slave is more likely to walk away, as their choice of partner must match their fantasy ideal, rather than a submissive, who, in my opinion, will walk into a relationship with their eyes a little more open.

Joe

(in reply to acctonthelook)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/8/2006 1:14:15 PM

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Just re-read what I wrote...

I agree, a submissive negotatiates for mutual pleasure. A brat negotiates for just their own ;op

Joe

(in reply to JoeT2000)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/8/2006 2:01:47 PM

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I do realize you have gotten many responses, and many very different ideas on what makes one slave vs sub.... I also realize you asked this question primarily of the Masters, so I hope you do not mind my interjection here:

I am wondering at the best way to look at sub/slave... By the truest definition, slavery takes ownership... and perhaps, even within the strictures of the various BDSM relationships and dynamics... that would be the best way to look at a person as a slave.

My reasoning is this. If you are using the various wording for those who are submissive by nature. IE: submissive, slave, subbie, sam, etc... what really are you doing? Do you need a label or do you need a hierarchical system? I have found it powerfully disturbing how most people, especially in 'alternative' lifestyles try to promote the idea of open-mindedness and a disdain for labeling or judgment. And yet... when it comes to the submissive... there is a definite caste system.. Which is 'more worthy', the sub or the slave, who is deeper who is better who is the ideal? Is this need to find a word a bit destructive? Is it another way of archetyping people? Trying to make them fit into very definite molds which can then be used to either coax them into a set of behaviors or ideals which may not even be possible except as an ideal? "Your are not a slave, you are just submissive." "Oh, she is just a subbie". I see a real potential for head-fucking with all these cubby holes we have, and this desperate need to have a sort of class system for what should be a natural part of who you are as a person, not a rank of submissive peerage.

With or without a label, is not the question more important to ask .. is 'submissive' something you do or something you are?' If it is not something you are, intrinsically and organically, then the question of whether you are a slave or submissive becomes defunct. If you answer .. yes, being submissive is a part of what makes me a person... then do you really need the title of the most uber-submissive-slave-ideal? Does it matter so much, if you are called slave or submissive (unless of course you are talking about a condition of ownership IE.. a slave is by definition property)? And if there is this burning need to be called slave or submissive, to have that hierarchical structure and perhaps some sort of 'societal' nod for 'rank'... maybe you should be asking yourself.. why?

Just a thought...

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/9/2006 2:27:25 AM

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We get so caught up on labels... which is better, slave or submissive ?

It's amazing how many Doms look on at the submissive "I'm a better sub than you are" spats and cat fights, especially online, where I think these discussions really come into their own (too much time on their hands), thinking "here we go again". Uber-submissive... hyper slave... whatever. Oh and the need need need ones (sorry off on a tangeant here) - check out my hypochondriac nymphomaniac poem in the humour forum.

It's the qualities of the person which matters most to me. Intelligence, humour, caring, attentiveness, vitality, sensuality, openness, emotional and psychological stability, and an ability to reason, having an enquiring mind... some deviance thrown in is good, a little masochism...

If a woman with those qualities chose to call herself an aardvark, I'd collar her.

Joe

I penned this an age ago... guess I haven't changed my opinion much.

Good Doms, my thoughts on the perfect slut
is one who does far more than rut.
Not a wriggling, giggling, parody,
but one who moves you sensually.
Not a bratty, fractious drama queen,
who craves attention to be seen,
but one who always brings you more
than you've realized, imagined, seen before,
Who laughs, who thinks, and seeks to please
Through empathy, foresees your needs
Who seeks to learn but teaches too
In the depths of her loving servitude
Who can joke and sparkle, often tease
but who plays the game intelligently
Who can satiate you sexually
Who is bound to you by love, though free
Is your friend and lover, pure sensate
student, equal, true soul mate
If you find this one, you may well find
I'm well pissed off, coz you've pinched mine

(in reply to puella)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/11/2006 9:13:53 AM

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Confusion,confusion,confusion!
I do not think its a matter of labeling,I think its a matter of deffinition.The problem is how can we talk to each other if our words have at best fuzzy or interpertive meanings or at worst a tower of babbel effect.
Why should it take one or two or three weeks of of circuliar interviewing a perspective sub or slave to find out what life she desires and for that matter what life I desire.
I think that the only way to advance our chosen ideals would be for some enterprizing individual or group to work on a definitive dictionary.Would this require any of us to change anything in how we live or do things,Not One Ioda.But it would allow everyone to at least talk to each other in intelligent ways to explain our ideals and beliefs.
I myself fall inline with the property vs equal patnership deffininitions where the slave gets satisfaction from pleasing her owner and the sub working toward equal gradification.
That said I also fall in line with the Master/owner feeding His property all that she needs.
I know this hasn't solved the problems but it is what I believe

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/11/2006 9:41:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveseeker
Confusion,confusion,confusion!
I do not think its a matter of labeling,I think its a matter of deffinition.The problem is how can we talk to each other if our words have at best fuzzy or interpertive meanings or at worst a tower of babbel effect.

In some ways we never will, and in some ways we do just fine.

Language is far more complex than people usually think, the communication process even more so. And yet we really do manage to do a pretty good job of it. You see people getting into relationships, being happy, socializing and all...somehow we're doing just fine without a prescriptive text to refer to.

quote:

Why should it take one or two or three weeks of of circuliar interviewing a perspective sub or slave to find out what life she desires and for that matter what life I desire.

3 weeks? Wow I'm going on two years with one of my partners and I'm nowhere close to mining through everything.

However, unless they are novices, it shouldn't take more than a minute or two for them to explain their perspective and general goals.

Why does it take longer? Because we're complex people and when you're discussing getting to know someone and making them an integral part of your life, that NEEDS a lot of explanation and communication. Trust me, having a list of check boxes isn't going to change that.

quote:

I think that the only way to advance our chosen ideals would be for some enterprizing individual or group to work on a definitive dictionary.

I've been advancing my ideals just fine without it.

All dictionaries define, but they are defined by usage and history, and they are ever-changing.

quote:

Not One Ioda.

iota

quote:

But it would allow everyone to at least talk to each other in intelligent ways to explain our ideals and beliefs.

We're doing a pretty good job here and now. No, it's not perfect and yes it requires a lot of examining what a person is REALLY saying rather than just what rambles out of their mouth...but again, having a pre-formed list won't help.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to slaveseeker)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/14/2006 8:42:41 AM

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From: Medford (Haynes Run), NJ
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I consider myself a slave, as opposed to a submissive, though I do enjoy eating asub. ;-)

(in reply to MLskajira)

RE: Sub or slave? - 4/14/2006 9:04:16 AM

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Joined: 9/10/2005
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i think i am little of both of slave and submissive... though i have input i know that it's Master choice to listen to my input, and there is no doubt i am owned by Him. i find it hard to fit in any category.

_____________________________

It's hard to keep a good woman down, then again maybe that would be fun.

(in reply to MLskajira)

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