What if?!?!? (Full Version)

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LaTigresse -> What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:34:06 AM)

Several recent and ongoing threads have got me wondering about a few things.

What if?

What if your dominant partner, master, mistress..........told you to jump off a cliff......would you do it?

First of all, I find these sorts of questions asinine. However, I wonder at the mindset that would A.) lead a person to wonder such a thing B.) ask such a thing C.) debate the specific act.

As I recently commented, that to me, it isn't about the cliff or the potential dangers,  repercussions, obedience, etc at all. To ME it is about the trust and dynamic of the relationship.

I will use my horse as a simplistic example. Years ago I bought a horse that had only been used as a driving horse. From that use, he had issues with the type of riding I wanted to do. He only wanted to go down the road (cannot take a carriage through a ditch), was scared of every little thing he saw move beside him (blinders had protected him before) and was terrified to go up and down hills. Even a ditch was a big 'oh hell no!"

So, because I did not own a carriage, or wish to purchase one. I had to retrain him. I had to teach him that it was okay to leave the road, a ditch was not going to eat him, that if I shook my baseball cap beside his head it was not going to decapitate him. Because I could not immediately do every single thing I would ask him to do over the years within those first few weeks, he had to learn to trust me. To know that whatever I was going to ask him to do, would not hurt him.

Yes, we had an occasional rough spot. We once crossed a low spot in a field that looked perfectly fine, only to sink him chest deep in mud. It had a dry crust on top and looked like solid ground......but hid a danger I had not forseen. Fortunately I bailed quickly, he was able to get out, and neither of us were hurt. However, he did regress a bit and it took an hour the next day to convince him to walk through a ditch. He had lost his trust in me and I had to regain it. We worked it out and everything was fine. Since then we have gone through many ditches and ravines, a few creeks and rivers. Even mud holes....after I knew they were not going to swallow him.

That horse and I got to know one another. He knows that I will not ask him to do anything to hurt him so he does what I ask. I care about him and would NEVER ask him to do anything I thought for a moment would cause him hurt. I want to keep him around, I love the bugger. I want to know that I can trust him to do what I ask so I do not push him beyond our unspoken, but known and agreed upon, limits.

So, with that in mind, why on earth would a human/human relationship be less so? I would not dream of asking my horse to jump off a cliff......why would I ask a slave to do so?

If I asked my horse to walk into a dangerous muddy bog, hurting him time after time, he would never trust me. He would not be the trustworthy companion, mount, slave of sorts, that I want. If I consistently asked a human to do something dangerous in some way, they would cease trusting me and would not be the slave I desire. It would not serve me, our relationship, to do so.

I do not ask my horse to do unnecessary and risky things just to prove I am his master. I certainly wouldn't do it with a human being I cared about, jeopardize such an important relationship for such a shallow act.

So I sit here and wonder........the people that come up with this stuff......have they EVER had a successful relationship of ANY kind? Do they not understand that, regardless of dominant or submissive, it is about building the relationship, both parties serving the relationship?

Come on people! It's not about what the D or M can 'get' the s to do. Or what extreme things the s will do for the D or M to prove their s-ness. It really isn't.




GreedyTop -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:38:09 AM)

brilliant post, LaT!




Mercnbeth -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:44:22 AM)

quote:

I find these sorts of questions asinine. However, I wonder at the mindset that would A.) lead a person to wonder such a thing B.) ask such a thing C.) debate the specific act. So, with that in mind, why on earth would a human/human relationship be less so?


Tigresse,

Considering the perspective of the people asking the question; I'd think you'd understand it better if you had an 'on-line horse' instead of a real one.




lovingpet -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:44:31 AM)

I feel like posts like that are a game of truth or dare, spin the bottle or some such.  So would ya?  Huh huh???  Would ya????  I left those kinds of things behind ages ago if I ever really participated at all.

The reality for me is being put in bad positions regularly result in me wanting to bolt in the other direction just like your horse.  I can do something uncomfy, but if it goes bad, it is something that the person placing me there had better handle well and prevent in the future.  It is a trust issue on my end.  It is a respect issue on my partner's end.  You don't put people important to you in harm's way.  That means knowing what triggers are going to cause upset, what situations are new and frightening and managing them appropriately, and what damage has already been done by other things in my life.  Many of these things will subside with time an building up my trust.  Some things are just risky and carry massive potential for harm regardless and a good dominant has the sense to know that and either not engage at all or intervene to counter those risks.

My life and well being aren't games to me.  They had better not be to a person who claims to care about me.  I will go to the ends of the earth for someone I love, respect, and trust.  I will tread cautiously to the point of not interacting with someone who does not fit that description.  If one wants a willing slave, then one needs show their lead is safe to follow.

lovingpet 




juliaoceania -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:44:36 AM)

quote:

What if your dominant partner, master, mistress..........told you to jump off a cliff......would you do it?


If I have repelling gear, a hang glider, a base jumping chute, what the hell, why not? If I have none of those things, well I would say "You first, Honey, I need you to demonstrate how to do it for me"[;)]






DarkSteven -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:44:55 AM)

Maybe I don't get it.  My sub should be all about pleasing me.  If it amuses me to make her do something that she doesn't want to do, so be it.  But what good does having her jump off a cliff do?  What good does having her undress publicly do?

She may be a toy for me, but that doesn't justify stupid or pointless use.




HisSweetElysium -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:45:05 AM)

In our relationship, I am expected to look out for my own safety. I'm supposed to give feedback for even the smallest things, if I am unsure, or have doubts, He wants to know immediately and without hesitation. Being submissive does not mean you have no responsibility. I love my Master and chose Him b/c he treasures both me and my submission. Like your horse, He does not push me too fast too far, or unreasonably. Were He to do that, I would not trust Him, and our relationship would deteriorate. Sure there are missteps, I don't speak up b/c I want to please Him, and it ends up being too much, but it's typically my fault for not speaking up, not His.

Never have I been punished or reprimanded for speaking my mind, even when I'm not that nice about it (though I strive to be). Because my thoughts and feelings are always well received, it makes it easier to share them readily, something I have suffered for in past relationships, so it's a hurdle for me to do that at times.




LaTigresse -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:46:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

So, with that in mind, why on earth would a human/human relationship be less so?


Tigresse,

Considering the perspective of the people asking the question; I'd think you'd understand it better if you had an 'on-line horse' instead of a real one.


Yeah, silly me. Cuz we know that riding online horse would be SO MUCH fun!!

(though it would have to be much much cheaper to feed...)




VaguelyCurious -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:47:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

That horse and I got to know one another. He knows that I will not ask him to do anything to hurt him so he does what I ask. I care about him and would NEVER ask him to do anything I thought for a moment would cause him hurt. I want to keep him around, I love the bugger. I want to know that I can trust him to do what I ask so I do not push him beyond our unspoken, but known and agreed upon, limits.


This.

Great post altogether, but this is the part that really jumped out at me.

Thanks for posting this, LaT; it's really solidified and clarified for me what was bothering me about the 'what if' debates.




LaTigresse -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:50:31 AM)

Thank you and yes.........that is the core of my point.

The horse/slave will do whatever I ask BECAUSE of the relationship we have built.




allthatjaz -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:54:31 AM)

Great way of getting a good point over LaT!
Being a horse woman myself I can fully understand the wonders of that trustful dynamic that man can have with beast and it relates well to what your talking about here.
I suppose this comes up from people saying they have no limits? To me, no limits in an established relationship means trust is in place and intuition is working. It means they can read one another and know how far to go and where not to go.
What it doesn't mean is the sub is prepared to jump off a cliff or go out and murder someone on his behalf. Its a kind of common sense thing.
I have to admit that when I first came on the scene I was a little baffled by the 'no limits' thing but I didn't understand how it all worked back then and had not at that point had an established relationship with anyone.

You will only have no limits whilst you have trust. Once the trust has gone because he's asked you to jump off a cliff, then limits and mistrust will form and with that a hasty exit out of the relationship!

Edited to add. There was an article in the papers a few years back now about a little girl and her grade A show jumper. This little girl and her beloved pony won trophy after trophy in the show jumping ring. One day the pony had what looked like a cataract and so the vet was called. The vet discovered the pony was totally blind and probably had been for some time.
The little girl had used body signals and the word 'hup' just before each jump and the pony had trusted her enough to jump blind. I thought that was a lovely story about trust.




VaguelyCurious -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 7:59:12 AM)

So the reason an s-type can say that they have no limits is that they can say with certainty that their D/M-type is not going to endanger them...

I hadn't thought about it like that before. Maybe I've been unnecessarily dismissive of the whole 'no limits' idea.

Two lightbulb flashes in one thread! Score!




GreedyTop -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:03:57 AM)

but were those lightbulbs environmentally friendly?? *snort*




VaguelyCurious -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:11:48 AM)

Metaphorical lightbulbs are always eco.




GreedyTop -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:13:04 AM)

[:D][:D][:D]




crazyml -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:25:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisSweetElysium

In our relationship, I am expected to look out for my own safety. I'm supposed to give feedback for even the smallest things, if I am unsure, or have doubts, He wants to know immediately and without hesitation. Being submissive does not mean you have no responsibility. I love my Master and chose Him b/c he treasures both me and my submission. Like your horse, He does not push me too fast too far, or unreasonably. Were He to do that, I would not trust Him, and our relationship would deteriorate. Sure there are missteps, I don't speak up b/c I want to please Him, and it ends up being too much, but it's typically my fault for not speaking up, not His.

Never have I been punished or reprimanded for speaking my mind, even when I'm not that nice about it (though I strive to be). Because my thoughts and feelings are always well received, it makes it easier to share them readily, something I have suffered for in past relationships, so it's a hurdle for me to do that at times.


Huge smile - congratulations to you both seems like you have something rare and lovley




LanceHughes -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:30:51 AM)

What is it with the absolutely brillant threads this morning?  Must be the planets, is all I can think of....  Oh, wait..... Maybe, just maybe, getting all that "A Legend returns ..." nonsense out of the collective mind of CollarMe refreshed us, allowing us to think/write more clearly than ever.

Another brilliant thread this morning: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3086724/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3086724

ETA: Mods, this might look like a cross-post, but 'tis not!




OriginallyFromLA -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:47:29 AM)

When I read these posts, I see two types of relationships. One where the Dom/Master cares for the sub/slave as a person and one where the the sub/slave is just an object, little more than a hunting dog. It's really had me confused trying to figure it all out.

I have a hard time comprehending the sheer joy a sub/slave must get in return for being released from the decision making process, but I've always been a bit of a control freak anyway.

This really boils down to "The Test". You know the test. Every relationship goes through it. How much bullshit will my partner let me get away with and how much can I endure from them before we need to pull back and see if there is enough common ground for us to stand on.

I don't see the D/M s/s relationship as being any different except it's a little clearer up front who will be enduring the lions share of the bullshit before the decision is made that the test has been passed.




NihilusZero -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:56:58 AM)

It's actually a bit simpler than just the 'trust threshold' issue for me. I have had discussions of the directions(s) I intend to go with me slave. If I request of her to do something, it is to be expected that my consistency in action/word reflects this...upon which I do expect her to do it.

Were I to ask her to jump off a cliff, the immediate thing I would expect her to assess is the fact that such a request would be the completely contrary to the direction(s) that I have repeatedly told her we're going in. At that point, I would expect her to rush me to the hospital for fear that there is something seriously wrong with my brain that is causing me to be someone very different than who I am.

Certainly there is a lot of gray area on that spectrum, but none that are not easily dealt with by my explaining the request in detail and showing how it is conducive to the end we're moving towards (which, again, would be an indication of my doing something consistent to what I had made clear she could expect).




LanceHughes -> RE: What if?!?!? (2/25/2010 8:59:26 AM)

I once had a sub/horse with a hard limit of watersports/ditches.  He was in a very trustful space, being led carefully and quietly, so I took him to the bathroom/covered mudhole and started to piss/walk across the mudhole.  I had him put his finger in the stream/walk out over what looked like dry land.  I had him taste his finger/walk a little further.

His body language told me how hard a limit I had encountered.  Fortunately, I was able to talk over the incident and he explained why it was such a hard limit.  I'll never go there ever again and he trusts me to not do so.  It turned out that my badly-conceived experiment (to see if this newbie knew what a "hard limit" was)  became a trust-building experience that ended well.  I was/am a very lucky Dom, who later realized that I had been playing with fire.

When "we" see those "What if ?!?!" original posts, I think the answer should ALWAYS be a link to JUST the OPost of this thread. LOL!




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