RE: The Problem With Atheists

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Elisabella -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 3:25:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So if I say I "think" that there is some sort of higher power out there because throughout humanity's history the majority of us have sensed it and related to it, is that a "belief" or is it an "opinion"? Depends on whether you're taking it on faith or Biblical word, or whether you're analyzing historical and scientific data and come to the conclusion that the most logical cause was an intelligent creator.

vincentML -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 5:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So if I say I "think" that there is some sort of higher power out there because throughout humanity's history the majority of us have sensed it and related to it, is that a "belief" or is it an "opinion"? Depends on whether you're taking it on faith or Biblical word, or whether you're analyzing historical and scientific data and come to the conclusion that the most logical cause was an intelligent creator. I am bothered by the statements made by both of you ladies. I really don't see the difference between a belief and an opinion. They both seem the same to me however you arrived at it, and in both cases the processes may lead to false conclusions. I have the impression that juliaoceania relies upon the common belief and experience of multitudes over the millennia as if (a) we really know what all of those humans understood, believed or experienced when I think we really mainly have reports only from a small fraction who were literate, and (b) as if shear numbers of believers made that belief valid. Through the 19th Century learned people believed that illness and health depended upon a balance of the four humours or four major body fluids - blood, phlegm, black bile and yellow bile. Apparently they were wrong despite the numbers who held the idea. Others believed the sick were possessed of demons. Their numbers doesn't lessen that fallacy. Then Elisabella relies upon historical and scientific logic as a process to come to her conclusion "that the most logical cause was an intelligent creator." My conflict here is: what if I proceed through the same process of examining history and science and come to an opposing conclusion that matter is eternal, i.e. it always existed and always will exist, that there was no first cause outside of matter, and that the human body being made of matter will decompose after death and that the personality, not being made of matter, will cease to exist. Is my existential conclusion a belief or an opinion, or is it an opinion that has become a personal belief? I would be interested in your replies ladies. Thank you very much.

Elisabella -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 5:34:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Then Elisabella relies upon historical and scientific logic as a process to come to her conclusion "that the most logical cause was an intelligent creator." My conflict here is: what if I proceed through the same process of examining history and science and come to an opposing conclusion that matter is eternal, i.e. it always existed and always will exist, that there was no first cause outside of matter, and that the human body being made of matter will decompose after death and that the personality, not being made of matter, will cease to exist. Is my existential conclusion a belief or an opinion, or is it an opinion that has become a personal belief? I would be interested in your replies ladies. Thank you very much. Your existential opinion would be an opinion, to me, until it reaches a point where you view any new evidence in light of your opinion - in other words, if you see something that might possibly contradict your opinion, and your reaction was to make the evidence fit your opinion, rather than make your opinion fit the evidence, at that point, to me, it would become a belief.

vincentML -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 5:41:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Then Elisabella relies upon historical and scientific logic as a process to come to her conclusion "that the most logical cause was an intelligent creator." My conflict here is: what if I proceed through the same process of examining history and science and come to an opposing conclusion that matter is eternal, i.e. it always existed and always will exist, that there was no first cause outside of matter, and that the human body being made of matter will decompose after death and that the personality, not being made of matter, will cease to exist. Is my existential conclusion a belief or an opinion, or is it an opinion that has become a personal belief? I would be interested in your replies ladies. Thank you very much. Your existential opinion would be an opinion, to me, until it reaches a point where you view any new evidence in light of your opinion - in other words, if you see something that might possibly contradict your opinion, and your reaction was to make the evidence fit your opinion, rather than make your opinion fit the evidence, at that point, to me, it would become a belief. Oh, I think I understand what you mean. Simply put by me, it is an opinion if I am willing to change it but a belief if I am unwilling to change it in the face of new evidence. Opinions are flexible while beliefs are resolute. I hope I have your meaning correct. Thanks.

GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 5:51:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So if I say I "think" that there is some sort of higher power out there because throughout humanity's history the majority of us have sensed it and related to it, is that a "belief" or is it an "opinion"? If you're sensing/experiencing/feeling something that would be a sort of experiential evidence and not a belief. However, whether or not you end up with a belief depends on where you go from there. For instance why do you think that what you're sensing and relating to is a higher power?

vincentML -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 7:44:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So if I say I "think" that there is some sort of higher power out there because throughout humanity's history the majority of us have sensed it and related to it, is that a "belief" or is it an "opinion"? If you're sensing/experiencing/feeling something that would be a sort of experiential evidence and not a belief. However, whether or not you end up with a belief depends on where you go from there. For instance why do you think that what you're sensing and relating to is a higher power? But isnt it true that experiential evidence can be delusional.... as in being captured and taken aboard an alien space craft as a specimen or as in being confronted by the Christ on the road to Damascus? And is not the derived belief then fallacious? Just wondering.

Kirata -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 8:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML But isnt it true that experiential evidence can be delusional.... I think that any experience of any "thing" (Christ, aliens, or even our day to day reality) can be delusional, or at the very least subject to illusion. The world we see is a reflection in consciousness, like red and blue. There is no red or blue "out there." This is why the experience toward which meditative disciplines aim is the experience of no "thing" (i.e., sunyata, emptiness, the self standing alone). K.

vincentML -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 8:21:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML But isnt it true that experiential evidence can be delusional.... I think that any experience of any "thing" (Christ, aliens, or even our day to day reality) can be delusional, or at the very least subject to illusion. The world we see is a reflection in consciousness, like red and blue. There is no red or blue "out there." This is why the experience toward which meditative disciplines aim is the experience of no "thing" (i.e., sunyata, emptiness, the self standing alone). K. K, if you are saying that red and blue are physiological interpretations, we agree. But, I would point out that their different frequences and wavelengths are measurable and so are in fact "out there" (without getting into the whole quantum thing of measurement changing reality) b/c the reports of the spectroscopic measurements are consistent.

juliaoceania -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 8:43:37 PM)
quote: I am bothered by the statements made by both of you ladies. I really don't see the difference between a belief and an opinion. That was my point... quote: I have the impression that juliaoceania relies upon the common belief and experience of multitudes over the millennia as if (a) we really know what all of those humans understood, believed or experienced when I think we really mainly have reports only from a small fraction who were literate, and (b) as if shear numbers of believers made that belief valid. Through the 19th Century learned people believed that illness and health depended upon a balance of the four humours or four major body fluids - blood, phlegm, black bile and yellow bile. Apparently they were wrong despite the numbers who held the idea. Others believed the sick were possessed of demons. Their numbers doesn't lessen that fallacy. I study this academically. I can state that in most of the populations that anthropologists study atheism isn't the norm, it is the exception... if you have other data that would show me to be incorrect I would welcome it.

Kirata -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 8:44:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML K, if you are saying that red and blue are physiological interpretations, we agree. But, I would point out that their different frequences and wavelengths are measurable and so are in fact "out there" Well hold on. Let's be precise. Red and blue, i.e., the colors red and blue, are not out there. They are reflections in consciousness of something else. They do indeed correspond to something that really is out there. But that "something" is not the colors red and blue, it is different frequency bands of electromagnetic radiation. K.

juliaoceania -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 8:46:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So if I say I "think" that there is some sort of higher power out there because throughout humanity's history the majority of us have sensed it and related to it, is that a "belief" or is it an "opinion"? If you're sensing/experiencing/feeling something that would be a sort of experiential evidence and not a belief. However, whether or not you end up with a belief depends on where you go from there. For instance why do you think that what you're sensing and relating to is a higher power? This would be a good research question for you, since people have different ways of describing it. Do you believe in "love" for example? You cannot prove you love, you just feel it... some things are not up for scientific quantification. Now you can accept that, or you cannot. It is like someone who does not believe in love telling everyone else that has felt it that it wasn't "real"... which is really silly.

Elisabella -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 9:15:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Oh, I think I understand what you mean. Simply put by me, it is an opinion if I am willing to change it but a belief if I am unwilling to change it in the face of new evidence. Opinions are flexible while beliefs are resolute. I hope I have your meaning correct. Thanks. Yes, though I'd also say it's a fairly moot point - by the time any one of us reaches a point in our lives where we're capable of critical thinking we're hardly a tabula rasa able to make objective and original decisions. The person who can analyze the world and say whether they feel it's God's hand might have a different idea if raised in a culture that had no concept of God, or if they were raised in a culture where the existence of God was unquestioned.

thornhappy -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 9:45:52 PM)
Actually, I bet you could look at neurotransmitter levels and fMRI and see "love" scientifically. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So if I say I "think" that there is some sort of higher power out there because throughout humanity's history the majority of us have sensed it and related to it, is that a "belief" or is it an "opinion"? If you're sensing/experiencing/feeling something that would be a sort of experiential evidence and not a belief. However, whether or not you end up with a belief depends on where you go from there. For instance why do you think that what you're sensing and relating to is a higher power? This would be a good research question for you, since people have different ways of describing it. Do you believe in "love" for example? You cannot prove you love, you just feel it... some things are not up for scientific quantification. Now you can accept that, or you cannot. It is like someone who does not believe in love telling everyone else that has felt it that it wasn't "real"... which is really silly.

juliaoceania -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 9:46:57 PM)
quote: Actually, I bet you could look at neurotransmitter levels and fMRI and see "love" scientifically. You can also see changes in people's brains when they pray... interesting, huh

GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 9:48:49 PM)
Did you actually read my reply? It seems like you responded based on what you expected me to say as opposed to what I actually said. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Do you believe in "love" for example? You cannot prove you love, you just feel it... some things are not up for scientific quantification. That's false by the way with a fMRI we can completely show love, here's a picture. Maybe it will help to rephrase my last question, you have this internal feeling, by what evidence or thought process have you concluded that it has an external source? [image]local://upfiles/566126/1821B9EC4AB6436DA8B3298BE0BD4F87.jpg[/image]

juliaoceania -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 9:58:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Did you actually read my reply? It seems like you responded based on what you expected me to say as opposed to what I actually said. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Do you believe in "love" for example? You cannot prove you love, you just feel it... some things are not up for scientific quantification. That's false by the way with a fMRI we can completely show love, here's a picture. Maybe it will help to rephrase my last question, you have this internal feeling, by what evidence or thought process have you concluded that it has an external source? [image]local://upfiles/566126/1821B9EC4AB6436DA8B3298BE0BD4F87.jpg[/image] You can also see changes in someone's brain when they pray...

GotSteel -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 10:02:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You can also see changes in people's brains when they pray... interesting, huh Aww, thornhappy beat me to the post. It is interesting actually and another thing I've found interesting is what parts of the brain a theists claims about god come from. edited to add: since you've said that again while I'm typing I expect that you're trying to allude to something, why not come out and say it.

Kirata -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 10:05:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You can also see changes in someone's brain when they pray... Not to mention, dead fish... In the fMRI scan, it looked like the dead salmon was actually thinking about the pictures it had been shown. Wired Science K.

juliaoceania -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/25/2010 10:06:26 PM)
quote: Did you actually read my reply? It seems like you responded based on what you expected me to say as opposed to what I actually said. This has nothing to do with my original post... Your "opinion" is a belief. You have no empirical evidence for your opinion anymore than I have it for mine. I do have cross cultural comparison of belief and faith in the sacred that precedes recorded history. It has been with humanity since their beginnings according to the archaeological record. Since there are few human attributes that are almost universal (belief in the sacred is almost universal) that means it is something most likely inherent to human beings... like love is, like the desire to create is, like the desire to reproduce is. Now you can pretend that this drive to believe in sacred things is somehow something that makes us stupid or regressive and that atheists are superior because they are "rational", but the evidence supports a relationship with sacred things as being something innately human. Not all humans want to reproduce, not all humans love, not all mothers are motherly, not all people even have a survival instinct... but that does not mean that these things are not only common to the human condition, but they define the human condition... a belief in the sacred is not something to "overcome" in my eyes, it is a part of who we are as human beings...

Vendaval -> RE: The Problem With Atheists (3/26/2010 12:44:29 AM)
Eloquent post, julia. [:D]

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