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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 11:45:04 AM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

If you are contacting someone and begging and pleading for an activity it is far from forced.
In fact, not only is it not FORCED, it is DEMANDING!

Interesting. Begging = demanding. I guess we need a new entry in Wikipedia. ;-)

A lot of the ones who beg push it to the point of whining, or are very pushy. Begging can be hot in the right circumstances, but that's generally after a dynamic has already been established, *during* play, not in an initial e-mail.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 1:28:06 PM

PeonForHer

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I suspect that we're talking about a spectrum of sub-views, here. At one end are those who beg, push and demand for satisfaction of a particular kink. That must be particularly horrible for a domme not just because she feels her power isn't relevant, but also because she, even as a person, feels irrelevant. That latter's nasty. I've felt it as a sub before ('You'll do as a sub for me - but any sub will do just as well') - I don't expect it's any nicer the other side of the kneel.

At the other end of the spectrum is a sub who wants to obey, primarily. He wants to do as he's told by a woman who is using him for her pleasure. In obeying, he in effect forces himself when he's required to do something he doesn't like. But, then, lots of other things come into play in his head. He can get off on the self-humiliation of doing something just to please her or, even more simply, because he's been told to do it; or on the excitement he can see that she's having. He might like to feel that there's an element of force coming from her. In one sense, there never is because this is BDSM. In another, there always is because ordering someone to do something (as opposed to requesting it) must contain some element of force, however minimal.

All right, I've got a headache now. Where the hell is Sea when we need him? He knows how to articulate this sort of stuff.

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Post #: 102

RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 1:47:07 PM

LadyConstanze

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I can understand the fetish of being made to do something you don't like bcause you love to hate it, it still isn't forced, truly forced would mean non-consensual, something anybody into BDSM usually won't do because then it is abuse, if it is requested, then the "forced" issue is out of the window anyway, then you pretend to be forced because that is what turns you on.

It's terminology, and in the end if somebody gets off on calling a requested action forced, well, fine, I hope they enjoy it, we all make our own choices and try to do what we like.

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Post #: 103

RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 2:14:53 PM

PeonForHer

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I'd steer clear of being quite so black and white about it, Lady C. It seems to me that in many (if not most) D/s relationships, the D will find out what the s likes. Say he likes to be taken with a strap-on and she's into that as well. Thereafter, it can be called 'unforced' because she knows that he likes to take it. But it's 'forced' insofar as she uses her strap-on when, where and how she wants to, not when, where and how he wants to.

I agree, though, that by far the larger element is 'unforced' and this is what makes it BDSM. That's the ''meat'', as it were; while the forced element is the 'pepper on the meat'. A little pepper goes a long way, is all I'm saying.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 3:49:40 PM

hardbodysub

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quote:

in many (if not most) D/s relationships, the D will find out what the s likes. Say he likes to be taken with a strap-on and she's into that as well. Thereafter, it can be called 'unforced' because she knows that he likes to take it. But it's 'forced' insofar as she uses her strap-on when, where and how she wants to, not when, where and how he wants to.

Perfectly said, Peon. Thanks so much for explaining that the general enjoyment of an activity doesn't preclude it from being forced.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 5:46:06 PM

cloudboy

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If that's your stomach, no one is going to have to force you to go on a diet!

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Post #: 106

RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 5:58:00 PM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

If that's your stomach, no one is going to have to force you to go on a diet!

It *is*.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 6:40:13 PM

PeonForHer

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Actually, I look like I'm pregnant with sextuplets, CB. I was just pulling it in on that occasion.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/3/2010 6:41:21 PM >

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 9:36:07 PM

OttersSwim

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Hey listen...-anyone's- tummy looks flat when they are lying down...

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Post #: 109

RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/3/2010 9:39:11 PM

Lockit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Hey listen...-anyone's- tummy looks flat when they are lying down...

His tummy isn't flat! It's bumpy!

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 4:22:13 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'd steer clear of being quite so black and white about it, Lady C. It seems to me that in many (if not most) D/s relationships, the D will find out what the s likes. Say he likes to be taken with a strap-on and she's into that as well. Thereafter, it can be called 'unforced' because she knows that he likes to take it. But it's 'forced' insofar as she uses her strap-on when, where and how she wants to, not when, where and how he wants to.

I agree, though, that by far the larger element is 'unforced' and this is what makes it BDSM. That's the ''meat'', as it were; while the forced element is the 'pepper on the meat'. A little pepper goes a long way, is all I'm saying.

In that case, a vanilla couple has a certain activity but only one of them decides when it is done (say when she will wear stockings or dress up for him), it would be forced too, because only she decides what she wears, and not when and how he wants it...

I take the whole "forced" issue a bit literally to avoid confusions and with the legal changes, it pays to be careful.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 6:21:05 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

In that case, a vanilla couple has a certain activity but only one of them decides when it is done (say when she will wear stockings or dress up for him), it would be forced too, because only she decides what she wears, and not when and how he wants it...

You could have a point there, Lady C. I had a vanilla GF once who insisted on wearing those hideous pointy shoes that some women like. Never once did she ask for my consent to assault my aesthetic senses by wearing them. I should have had her arrested.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/4/2010 6:22:01 AM >

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 7:09:13 AM

beej

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
You could have a point there, Lady C. I had a vanilla GF once who insisted on wearing those hideous pointy shoes that some women like. Never once did she ask for my consent to assault my aesthetic senses by wearing them. I should have had her arrested.

lmfao! yes, you should have. i haven't seen anyone yet whose feet look good in those shoes.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 7:42:04 AM

MMercurial

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quote:

Men are put into those same boxes of independence, strength, responsibility, etc. There is NOTHING in the male socialization that EVER encourages a man to be meek, yielding, or submissive - except maybe to GOD.

And so, having those feelings is at polar opposite of what a man is taught in every aspect of his life that he is -supposed to be-. The implication is that if he is -not- these things, then he is -failing-. Most men must make a journey to submission and experience an evolution of feelings that lead to changes in behaviors and actions. That journey can be very very hard...some never make it.

Now imagine being a man and trying to get to a safe environment where you could be that submissive person inside you. The giant mass of your upbringing, and the expectations of society screaming at you that what you are doing is not what a man is "supposed to do/be". Lay on top of that, feelings that lead a male to a feminine place and it is a wonder to me that most males in that place don't just burst into fire on the spot. We'd all see these black spots on the ground and say "Oh, there goes another one..."

In order to get to that "safe place", that "submissive place", a lot of guys need a gateway. And for many, that gateway is "being forced". It does not matter that they want it and that they are not really being forced. What they want is a haven away from the screaming expectations that they can get to a place where they can safely feel submissive.

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I have found this to be so true. It is so sad the pendulum has swung so far from supporting men, to supporting women. Why haven't we supported both equally? Gloria Steinem wanted, not just "equality" which can never be, but also revenge.

< Message edited by MMercurial -- 4/4/2010 7:43:44 AM >

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 9:06:23 AM

Venatrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial
It is so sad the pendulum has swung so far from supporting men, to supporting women.

This is a complete fantasy. Take a look at the condition of women anywhere in the world, and you won't find a single country where women have achieved absolute equality. And if you think that's not true, I suggest you try being a woman for a couple of years. Even better, try being a woman in Iran.

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Post #: 115

RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 10:47:32 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

In that case, a vanilla couple has a certain activity but only one of them decides when it is done (say when she will wear stockings or dress up for him), it would be forced too, because only she decides what she wears, and not when and how he wants it...

I take the whole "forced" issue a bit literally to avoid confusions and with the legal changes, it pays to be careful.

What about circumstances where the sub eroticizes an idea, but knows he could never bring himself to do it unless he felt "broken down" a bit? I don't know the best way to explain it. But there are some men that won't DO something (even though the think about it) until they are deep into doing S&M, emotionally in a different place, and feeling broken down. Some guys call this "subspace." If the act is dressing in girlie clothes, you don't find this guy with a stash of panties in his drawer. He doesn't even THINK about doing it to himself. He fantasizes about it, but "chickens out" whenever he tries to do it with a woman unless she has really put him into a headspace where it is impossible to say no to her.

There are some men that enjoy being overpowered. They enjoy making choices by force that go against their nature. They don't immediately just fall into line and obey. And they certainly don't WANT to be dressed in panties and a sexy nightie; they fantasize about having no choice. When presented with a good BDSM scenario, with a woman he trusts, he may surrender to the idea but he's painfully uncomfortable and it shows.

I think a better word is "Coerced feminization," if this is what we are talking about. This is VERY different from a man who regularly wears panties on his own and totally is into dressing up, or just likes a woman with a stern voice to make him dress up and then he adopts a new kind of demeanor and she's just roleplaying with him. This is a man who is 100% not into the idea except that it makes him uneasy and that uneasiness turns into vulnerability. And that's the key for me.

Akasha

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 5:22:39 PM

hardbodysub

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I agree that "coerced" is probably a better description of most such activities commonly referred to as "forced". I've also seen "enforced" used in a similar fashion, where "forced" wasn't quite adequate. If words that describe the concept perfectly already exist, then using them is better than promoting ambiguity by bending the meaning of another word.

I think most people understand that many words aren't always meant literally in this context, and standard definitions tend to morph a bit. On the other hand, sometimes it just doesn't seem right to change the meaning of a word; some words seem to need their integrity.

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 6:31:58 PM

PeonForHer

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I've always used 'coerced' as a synonym of 'forced', myself. Nonetheless, I like Akasha's explanation. (I've often discovered that people who've actually experienced something - unlike myself re this matter - can explain things rather better. Heh.)

What gets me is that every time this subject comes up, people start to argue as though we're no longer talking about BDSM. Why? Words like 'Mistress','slave', 'owner' and even 'Goddess' pass by without comment. We all know that such terms mean something quite different in the non-BDSM world, accept that, and get to discussing the real point.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/4/2010 6:41:23 PM >

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 7:03:36 PM

MMercurial

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix

quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial
It is so sad the pendulum has swung so far from supporting men, to supporting women.

This is a complete fantasy. Take a look at the condition of women anywhere in the world, and you won't find a single country where women have achieved absolute equality. And if you think that's not true, I suggest you try being a woman for a couple of years. Even better, try being a woman in Iran.

LOL.... Well, we know you don't know much about the United States of America. Just one example is Title IX concerning women and college sports. Here's a link for an example: http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2003/feb03/03-02-12.shtml

Now, there are a TON of other vicious things done to men in America, but someone who does not wish to see, will not see what exists. America is not Iran, and I'm an American. I speak of my home.

I'm a 50+ year old woman, and my sex has never significantly affected my career. It's the product of what I do. And frankly, whenever I have put the energy into it, it's been fine. Matter of fact, whenever I choose, I have the ability to have a great deal of effect, simply because of my interests and my profession.

I go toe to toe with men, almost every day and have since 1976. And I compliment American men, because they are almost always respectful, regardless of sex. They are a wonderful breed.

And anyone who says differently is dishonest, and is allowing her agenda to control her, rather than the facts.

And my views on this whole forced femme thing are completely influenced by my primary interest and experience: men who were abused as children. If I otherwise like them, I'll accomodate their interests. They've suffered enough. And yes, they top from the bottom. So what?!

< Message edited by MMercurial -- 4/4/2010 7:12:20 PM >

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RE: chastity and forced femme - 4/4/2010 7:29:14 PM

PeonForHer

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