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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 6:21:04 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Based upon what I have seen/heard, the s-types that struggle most with this concept are hetro s women, that have some sort of idea that gender plays a role in dominance.

Really?  I didn't take it that way at all.  I saw it more as some s types not having the same perception of the person who had power over them if they watched that person being controlled or engaging in acts of submission (i.e. kneeling) with someone else.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 6:25:29 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I can understand why a person would find it difficult to submit to a TPE slave, because as most M/s relationships are structured, they would be, in essence, submitting to the M of that slave.

However, to step outside the box/look at it from a different angle (one of my favourite things....) I do not see a D/s or M/s relationship as the same as a bottoming/topping relationship. I do not see someone that is bottoming as always being submissive or serving nor do I see someone that is topping as always being dominant or a master/mistress. For me, the difference are very distinct. It is obvious that the two can co-exist but the existance of one does not guarantee the existance of the other.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 7:43:49 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		OK, it's my general understanding that for most people, the terms "dominant" and "submissive" do not apply to their whole lives and their interactions with everyone they meet. Therefor, to YOU, he was not a submissive boy. And to HIM, you are not a slave. You're just two people on collarme. The same could be said of any two people who did not have some sort of "agreement" in place.

Now, when you look at the words "dominant" and "submissive" from a sociological standpoint as personality traits, not as role traits, then of course it would be different. But in that light, we don't HAVE words to describe these things... certainly not "submissive" and "slave". We don't need words in that context, it all just happens automatically.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 8:54:17 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		To me there is no hierarchy in general here. I am not going to submit to all who identify as dominant. Nor switch. I won't submit to any of them because they aren't my dominant. I respect Lady Pact as a person because of the fact that her posts are always clear and understandable, she doesn't posture. But there are other dominants here I sneer at because they're all posture. Same for every other label, I judge the person and not the label.

As far as forming a relationship with a switch, I wouldn't. But I'm not poly. Same reason I wouldn't form a relationship with a bisexual man. I'm not poly, I'm monogamous. Which means I couldn't form a long term relationship with them with long term being defined as traditional, marriage based, monogamous for the rest of your life. I couldn't fulfill their needs for the next thirtysome years. Now if I were poly then I could form a relationship with anyone compatible whether dom, sub or switch, hetero or bisexual. Unfortunately I'm not so that limits my pool of possible partners.

Good news is I only need one and I've been with him for 8 years now.


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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 9:17:00 AM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		re: hierarchy...

From a "classical Gorean" standpoint, any male, even a submissive *or* enslaved male could be seen as higher in the pecking order, as it were, than a female slave.  There is a discussion of this in both Slave Girl and Marauders, off the top of my head.  So whether or not the man was kneeling, so to speak, (whether a switch, or not) could be seen as irrelevant.  (My copy of Marauders is currently in Cincinnati being read by my Jarl, so please excuse my lack of a ready quote for this).

"You are too good for him?" asked the merchant.  "Yes," I said. I then realized this was not the proper thing to say. But I had said it.  "You are both animals," he said.  "Yes Master," I said.  "But you are a female," he said.  "Yes Master," I said.  "And he," he said, "though slave is yet male."  "Yes Master," I whispered.  "And is not the   male animal the master of the female animal?" he asked.  "Yes Master," I said.  I know that male dominance was pervasive among mammals, and that it was universal   among primates. It can be frustrated only by an extensive and complex conditioning program, one adequate, over a period of years, to distort the order of nature.  "Do you find this slave of interest?" asked the master of the male slave.  He shrugged. "She is small," he said.  I looked at him, frightened.  "But she is not without interest,"   he conceded.  "Do you think you can catch her?" asked the master.  "Of course," said the male slave. I rose to my feet frightened. I began to back away.  "She is yours," said the master.  Slave Girl of Gor - Page 345

Now, in my mind there are male slaves and there are male slaves.  Those who are slave but still ~masculine~ I view as falling into this "natural order" of "Free Man -> Free Woman -> Slave Male -> Slave Woman" (which is pretty well how I see things).  Those who are (for whatever reason) emasculated, I'm not sure how to classify.... Ah, grey areas. ;)

Obviously this is just my perspective, and non-Goreans immediately have no real reason to even consider this philosophical detail point for inclusion into their paradigm, but for ~me~ and my perspective on "The Hierarchy", this is a critical and challenging concept.

Edited to add:

Interesting enough, I think that this particular point of emasculation, etc. was specifically was of interest to Norman as he had the whole dialogue re: the Waniyanpi or "sames" in Savages of Gor (I realize this isn't a Gorean specific forum, but it's the foundation I'm coming from, so please bear with me).  There is a whole section where the main character is sort of puzzled-and-confused-and-disgusted by the folks who have purposely gone gender-neutral and sort of circumvented their natural state of being.  (I'm not sure how this would apply to folks who are transgendered, etc.)


< Message edited by bondmaid123 -- 3/27/2010 9:24:21 AM >

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 9:17:48 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I like to think of these relationships as puzzle pieces. Each of us is a piece with knobs and recesses that represent our wants and needs.

When another piece of the puzzle matches our knobs and recesses we can be partners. No one piece is more important because only compatible pieces will fit together. One cannot work properly without the other.

Now if you want to call one piece red and the other green or one submissive or slave and the other Dom ok but the color or the label is not important only how we fit together.

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 9:46:58 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

"And he," he said, "though slave is yet male."

I view as falling into this "natural order" of "Free Man -> Free Woman -> Slave Male -> Slave Woman"


Thank you for your contribution.  Different points of view are always interesting.  (I was also rather impressed that you were able to quote the page you referenced.  )

One question I do have to ask.  Are the above statements not contradictory?  In your view, which carries the higher weight?  The gender or the role?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 10:34:06 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

A hierarchy doesn't have to mean a hierarchy of personal value.


I would argue that hierarchal structures are artificial delineations and are often judgments on a person's worth and value.
“For want of a nail a shoe was lost
For want of a shoe a horse was lost
For want of a horse a battle was lost
All for the want of a nail.”

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 10:45:40 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
if i recognized a switch, perhaps. and as much as that may get me chewed out, i simply cannot view a man who kneels as dominant. they may have a dominant streak, which is a totally different animal.

Hi, tazzygirl, I'm Andalusite, and I'm a switch. Now that we've been formally introduced, presumably you'll recognise me the next time I post on the forums.

I was a Domme for 5 years when I first got into D/s and BDSM. My submissive deferred to my judgement regarding jobs and college major, gave me access to his bank account and authority over his budget, lost weight/exercised to my specifications (granted, after asking for my help), and otherwise deferred to me. I wasn't "streaking," I had genuine authority and responsibility. Now I'm a slave, and I have a submissive playpartner. I don't have authority over her because she is married and we aren't in a romantic relationship. If my Master and I wind up in a poly relationship with a submissive, she might submit only to me, only to my Master, or to both of us - it would depend upon how the three of us interact, and you don't get any say in the matter.

As far as a general hierarchy with other posters, I'm not in a D/s interaction with anyone here except for my Master. I will neither dominate nor submit to anyone, although I do follow the rules the site has set, and any guidance by the moderators. I try to be polite to everyone.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 11:02:25 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		~FR~

Bella was trying to address tazzy's behavior from a Gorean perspective, seeing that she knows tazzy is a kajira. As such, the implications of Bella's comment were different then they would have been if they were made from the context of BDSM style interactions.
Because Bella was really addressing a matter of Gorean protocol, I will use this same protocol in my answer to this topic.

I think that what, Bella was trying to point out to tazzy was that a switch is still a "free person" in the Gorean context, because they have the ability to determine who they submit to and who not.
In that sense, they are not too different from a Gorean Free Woman, who might be in the capacity of "Mistress" towards any random slave girl, but can at the same time, still be totally submissive towards their own Free Companion.

As such, from the Gorean point of view, tazzy was talking to somebody who is free, though of course not a Gorean Free.
Bella as such pointed out to her, that from that Gorean point of view, of course he had the right to tell her "no". And that tazzy's labeling him as a "slave boy" when he is not a slave in either the Gorean or the BDSM context, might have been inappropriate from the social position tazzy finds herself in as a kajira.

This all is of course totally depended on what her own Master thinks about the subject.
There are many instances in the books where slaves are absolutely insolent towards free people of either sex, with the total approval of their Masters.

That doesn't change the fact, however, that from the Gorean perspective, such behavior towards somebody who is not a slave, coming from a kajira, is frowned upon heavily in Gorean culture - EVEN if the Master in question allows the slave to behave in such a way.

From what I understand of tazzy's Master's instructions for her, she is not required to apply Gorean protocol towards non-Goreans outside of the Gorean boards, so I'm sure that, in his eyes, she has done no wrong.

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 11:07:01 AM   
LadyPhoenix85


Posts: 13
Joined: 3/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


So, now we have all kinds of territory, thanks to the original, to have the opportunity to ask a few questions and see how people feel on matters.  Is a sub higher in the power structure than a slave to you?  Can you serve/be served by a switch?  Knowing yourself, how do you see such situations working out for you?



Is a sub higher in the power structure than a slave to me?

No, almost all of my... (hmmmm what word to use?) slaves? are just that, slaves. I usually don't even look for what some would call "regular" submissives. I my household, all slaves are created equal. For the exception to this, see the rest of my answers on this subject.

Can you serve/be served by a switch?

Yes. I would have no problem being served by a switch, as long as that switch understood when to be a slave and when to be a Dom/me. For example, if I did decide to work with a switch, he or she might be a slave to me, and me only, but in the training of another "new" slave, might assist me in being dominant.

Knowing yourself, how do you see such situations working out for you?

I think such situations would work out well, the switch would be able to be a slave as well as work as a dominant. "Both sides of the kneel" would be met by her/him. I myself would never submit to anyone. I hate anyone controlling me in a relationship, which is why I am probably single. And thats ok, I can just find slaves to meet my needs.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 11:25:01 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Afternoon LP,

Here I am with these darned nested quotes again, I will just let the Mods reprimand me if it is an issue because I am not going to go through and snip.

From my PoV, I suppose the why of the role would also play an important part in that hierarchy. By this I mean, I personally rate a male that chooses to kneel below that of a female (free or slave). Whereas, a man that is forced into slavery, may still hold the strength to fight his way out of it, which merits a bit more worth in my book than he who submits freely. I am speaking strictly about the ladder and the rungs upon I rate folks in that ladder.

Just as you could never see yourself kneeling, does it not sometimes raise in your mind the why somebody would freely choose to do so? To give up that freedom? Of course we know that much of it is based on both nature (the way they are wired) and the way the person was nurtured. I only bring this up to put emphasis on the why I rank them in such a way.

I wish you well,
Thadius

P.S. If there was a more specific question you had, I would be happy to answer if I am able.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

"And he," he said, "though slave is yet male."

I view as falling into this "natural order" of "Free Man -> Free Woman -> Slave Male -> Slave Woman"


Thank you for your contribution.  Different points of view are always interesting.  (I was also rather impressed that you were able to quote the page you referenced.  )

One question I do have to ask.  Are the above statements not contradictory?  In your view, which carries the higher weight?  The gender or the role?




_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 11:42:19 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Based upon what I have seen/heard, the s-types that struggle most with this concept are hetro s women, that have some sort of idea that gender plays a role in dominance.


That and the guys who are into Female Supremacy (I say guys because I've come across more submissive male who believed in that concept then Female Dommes).

Come to think of it, gender superiority can come from just about anywhere.

I will agree with you that it's all nonsense however.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 11:50:34 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Speaking of kneeling, and switching:

What if one kneels, but only in terms of role play, to get off?

Those that do see a hierachy, and see "kneelers" low on the totem pole, does intent matter? Play vs genuine submission?

< Message edited by Level -- 3/27/2010 11:51:45 AM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 11:55:52 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Good point Level. I put higher on the totem pole people with integrity who can come to the table clearly expressing what they want and clearly identifying areas where they are unsure.

After that, we both determine if we are compatible. A person who is not compatible than me but has shown me nothing but respect and integrity will remain high in my esteem regardless if they are in this for the lifestyle or simply to get off.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:09:57 PM   
bondmaid123


Posts: 143
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline 		I don't see a contradiction at all, honestly, Ma'am.  But let's make sure all the "social order" pieces are on the board before I delve into an explanation.  In the books (or as I like to tongue-in-cheek refer to them "The Gospel According to John Norman" ) slavery is not some subtle internal sense of submission/subjugation but an actual legal status, sort of like it is here on Earth in countries where slavery (ie "slaves as owned property") is legal. (reference: America pre-Civil War).  So that's the perspective that the stories (and thus the quotes) are coming from (and I have no idea what your personal level of knowledge is re: the Gorean novels so please don't feel as though I'm lecturing you, I'm just making sure that this is as clear as I can make it for anybody reading this.  )

So to me, in most simplistic terms (and ahhhh if only life were so simple... ) there's legal status first, then gender roles within the legal status.  And, as ishy referenced, somebody who is capable of self-determining if they are submitting or not is ~not~, by most (if not all) guidelines I've seen referenced within the Gorean perspective, is by default NOT slave.  So they would fall into the "Free Person" category.

But then see, here it gets tricksy, and I will freely admit this is where it gets gummed up in my head.

This hierarchy only works if everybody involved is Gorean or Gorean-compatible... and even GOREANS can't agree what a "True Gorean" looks like. ;)  So now what?  Especially since all of *us* live in communities where slavery ("legal slavery") is NOT legal.....

I will say openly (and have said before) that there are LOTS of so-called dominants who act like twits for whom I have (and display) absolutely no respect.  In real life, I participate in events with the BDSM lifestyle group where my Jarl lives (he's in a city about three hours' drive from where I currently live) and the smaller community where I live.  So we attend munches, which are in the public eye, and I don't worry overmuch about how things go there, since I'm actually pretty baseline respectful in general when I'm public anyway because it's just good manners and I was raised right (lol)... and then we attend play parties... and there are all sorts of variations on D/s (and people who don't see themselves as fitting into the D/s spectrum at ALL but are more "kinksters".. which I am not mocking or anything, but they do complicate things when you've grown up your whole life mentally classifying people according to this ruler of a D/s spectrum and find it no longer serves the purpose adequately.. lol) So just because somebody CALLS themselves "Master High Lord Shmuckety-Muck" doesn't mean he IS what I consider "A Dominant Free Male".  (See, it's so much harder here on Earth without the convenience of legal slavery. ;) so then I have to watch how he acts, and try to figure it out for myself ~without~ creating a scene or disgracing myself and reflecting poorly on my training (or making it look like my Master has a brat in his collar.  Ugh).  I ~normally~ default or err on the side of "More rather than less" when it comes to respect, but if there's a so-called-dom who acts like a spineless emasculated wuss, my respect will erode, but I will make damn sure I have an explanation of my behavior if asked.  And even more honestly, my *Master* is NOT Gorean and comes from a very different background and while there's quite a bit of common beliefs between us, *HE* would very likely be less annoyed at me than I would be at ~myself~ if I were openly disrespectful to "A Dominant" because, frankly?  brats and mouthy cunts abound in the BDSM world and it's sort of the norm so he's pretty used to it and it simply wouldn't register unless somebody complained to him... so a lot of this is internal policing of myself and holding myself to a higher standard (which he doesn't mind, as it results in a lot of ~compliments~ about my work ethic and behavior).

That all being said, if a man, of whatever self-classification, acts like a MAN, I find myself instinctively responding submissively to him.  Kneeling at his feet and begging to serve, not necessarily, but it does cause more-or-less subtle changes in my automatic reactions to him. 

~~~pausing to breathe... heheh~~~~~ 

Sorry for dragging you through the maelstrom that is my head... trying to blend the two "worlds" gets very very dicey sometimes :)  Add to that the very limited data input of a text-based forum and WHEEEEEEEEEEEE good freaking luck ;)



(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:17:23 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Speaking of kneeling, and switching:

What if one kneels, but only in terms of role play, to get off?

Those that do see a hierachy, and see "kneelers" low on the totem pole, does intent matter? Play vs genuine submission?

Hiya Level,

I would think intent definitely matters. My post earlier refers to those that choose to kneel as their place in the world, know what I mean? Further, I have in the past knelt to pray, and to get to an appropriate height to have sex, or even to play fight. None of which has anything to do with submission, which is more to the point that was being made in the OP, I think that for some it is hard to recognize somebody that chooses to kneel in submission to then turn around and dominate them.

Just my opinion.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:18:07 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Afternoon LP,

Here I am with these darned nested quotes again, I will just let the Mods reprimand me if it is an issue because I am not going to go through and snip.

From my PoV, I suppose the why of the role would also play an important part in that hierarchy. By this I mean, I personally rate a male that chooses to kneel below that of a female (free or slave). Whereas, a man that is forced into slavery, may still hold the strength to fight his way out of it, which merits a bit more worth in my book than he who submits freely. I am speaking strictly about the ladder and the rungs upon I rate folks in that ladder.

Just as you could never see yourself kneeling, does it not sometimes raise in your mind the why somebody would freely choose to do so? To give up that freedom? Of course we know that much of it is based on both nature (the way they are wired) and the way the person was nurtured. I only bring this up to put emphasis on the why I rank them in such a way.

I wish you well,
Thadius

P.S. If there was a more specific question you had, I would be happy to answer if I am able.


Hello again, Thadius,

This was probably one of the most diplomatic answers that could have been written on the subject.  I have to say that I highly appreciate that. 

I think we may very much be of the same mind here, though I'll admit that I find more cases of nature, rather than nurture.  This is the exact reason why the question of why someone would chose to serve doesn't come up much for Me.  While it would be against My nature, to someone else, it would be the most natural thing in the world.  (With the right person, setting, etc, etc.)  Knowing that I'm wired a certain way makes it easier for Me to accept that others might be wired differently.  I tend to think that being who we are due to that wiring, the nature of the person inside, has a lot more to do with it than the shell we came with on the outside.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:22:16 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

WHEEEEEEEEEEEE


Ok, well at least you said it! ;-)

Interesting you wrote...

quote:

and there are all sorts of variations on D/s (and people who don't see themselves as fitting into the D/s spectrum at ALL but are more "kinksters".. which I am not mocking or anything, but they do complicate things when you've grown up your whole life mentally classifying people according to this ruler of a D/s spectrum and find it no longer serves the purpose adequately.. lol)


And I could say the same about any power dynamics that as a blanket rule made one gender (or race or sexual orientation or D/s orientation or ability or anything really) superior to the other. It goes against everything that I have been raised to think and anything that I fundamentally believe in.

I have no issues if people want to practice their D/s on Gor or in the OWK. That is a personal choice. I will say that I have little patience of people trying to engage me in that type of dynamic, whether it be a Dominant man or submissive woman thinking of me as a lesser dominant for being a woman or a submissive man thinking that he was a lesser being. Frankly, I'm not interested in being partnered with a lesser being.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Hierachy - 3/27/2010 12:23:18 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Speaking of kneeling, and switching:

What if one kneels, but only in terms of role play, to get off?

Those that do see a hierachy, and see "kneelers" low on the totem pole, does intent matter? Play vs genuine submission?

Hiya Level,

I would think intent definitely matters. My post earlier refers to those that choose to kneel as their place in the world, know what I mean? Further, I have in the past knelt to pray, and to get to an appropriate height to have sex, or even to play fight. None of which has anything to do with submission, which is more to the point that was being made in the OP, I think that for some it is hard to recognize somebody that chooses to kneel in submission to then turn around and dominate them.

Just my opinion.


Yeah. Sometimes I have to kneel to tie the spreader bar around his ankles... ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Thadius)
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