Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself?

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Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, w... - 4/8/2010 9:01:10 AM

lucylucy

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
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There have been a few threads lately in which the idea that the submissive partner (sub, slave, property, etc.) has all the power in a D/s relationship has come up. The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one. Aside from the fact that a Dom can leave any time, too, I don't get the logic to the argument. As I explained it in one thread, I think equating "the power to leave" with "real power" is a mistake. Isn't that like saying that because my house would be worth a ton of money if I sold it, I have a lot of money? Only if I sell my house, which I don't plan to do. Up until the moment I sell the house, I have very little money (if any). I see the leaving as power thing similarly. Until the moment I leave, where's my power?

In my mind, power is about control, and if all I can control is when I leave, I just don't see how that's "all the power" in the relationship. If I'm with someone for 20 years and for 20 years my power amounts to being able to leave, can it really be siad that for 20 years I had "all the power" in the relationship? I just don't see it. Furthermore, if the sub has "all the power," that means the Dom is powerless. Now that I really don't see.

How do you define power? What do s-types and D-types do that demonstrate their power? Who has power in your relationship?

I am especially curious about D-types feeling powerless and s-types feeling powerful in D/s relationships.

< Message edited by lucylucy -- 4/8/2010 9:16:46 AM >

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:12:59 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Before i answer this are you strictly speaking of Doms and subs? That will to me make a big difference for many people especially those of us who see subs very different from slaves.

Thanks, angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to lucylucy)

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:17:29 AM

lucylucy

Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Before i answer this are you strictly speaking of Doms and subs? That will to me make a big difference for many people especially those of us who see subs very different from slaves.

Thanks, angel

angel, I just edited my post to make it more open to slaves, etc. Thanks for asking that question.

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

(in reply to barelynangel)

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:20:44 AM

LaTigresse

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I have only felt powerless when I allowed myself to feel that way. I created/allowed the situation. I was insecure and allowed the other person the power. Needless to say, we were both miserable and it didn't work.

I think the reverse is also true. At some point, a submissive allows the dominant the power over him/her, or the slave is compelled to be taken/mastered/overpowered, so to speak.

What it really comes down to, for me, is a sort of mutual 'will'. The submissive or slave can want, but if the dominant/master/mistress, doesn't.......then nothing is going to happen. And visa versa. There has to be a mutual wanting or will, to submit, be owned, dominate, or own.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to lucylucy)

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:24:54 AM

LadyNTrainer

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Joined: 5/20/2009
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An excerpt from this bit of writing seems relevant.

"There are oceans in his eyes, and sometimes I think I could drown in them. Their salinity is in equal parts of love and fear, adoration and intimidation. Impossible not to plunge into them, to explore the fascination of their depths, and to be caught in their dark undertow. There is no defense against utter surrender.

"Formidable, the hold he has over me when he is naked and trembling and vulnerable. I cannot look away; my eyes are locked into place as securely as his collar. Powerless and surrendered, he is totally powerful, totally compelling. The grace and beauty of him at times is enough to break my heart, and to make it whole again."

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 4/8/2010 9:25:04 AM >

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Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

(in reply to lucylucy)

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:33:05 AM

leadership527

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I would argue that the words "power" and "control" both are myths that defy crisp definition. The only person I have "power" over is myself. I can "make" myself do things. With Carol, I can shape her choices insofar as the choice relates to me. I think that the harsh-edged words "power" and "control" resonate with people chasing a particular sort of buzz but don't serve well when actually trying to analyze the mechanics of a relationship.

For this reason, I tend to rely on words like "influence" and "authority" which are much easier to define.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lucylucy)

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:43:44 AM

Jeffff

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I agree. I would also say that by wielding power or control thoughtlessly, a person could cause another to exercise the power of leaving.

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:52:36 AM

SimplyMichael

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I second what Jeff said.

As for the crap about "he who would leave has all the power" well it is half true. If you want to date women with low self esteem, say a kajirah or something, that sort of petty emotionally manipulation works wonders.

However, who the hell would want to control someone with such a petty tool? Its the bdsm equivelent of the child pouting that he will take his ball and go home if people don't play his way.

I want to inspire obedience not guilt or manipulate someone into it.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 8

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 9:56:26 AM

jbcurious

Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

An excerpt from this bit of writing seems relevant.

"There are oceans in his eyes, and sometimes I think I could drown in them. Their salinity is in equal parts of love and fear, adoration and intimidation. Impossible not to plunge into them, to explore the fascination of their depths, and to be caught in their dark undertow. There is no defense against utter surrender.

"Formidable, the hold he has over me when he is naked and trembling and vulnerable. I cannot look away; my eyes are locked into place as securely as his collar. Powerless and surrendered, he is totally powerful, totally compelling. The grace and beauty of him at times is enough to break my heart, and to make it whole again."

Now this post doesn't scare me... Incredibly beautiful... The idea of being able to give someone yourself to such an extent and to have them value it to that degree... is amazing to me.

I find all this arguing about who really has "power" or "control" kind of beside the point.

I can't give if you won't recieve and you can't take what I don't wish to give. Seems pretty balanced to me.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'

I have an explosive personality...

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Post #: 9

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 10:35:13 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

How do you define power?

it is about being in posession of the authority and ability to exercise control.

quote:

What do s-types and D-types do that demonstrate their power?

limit their partners, keep things secret from their partners, direct their partners with regards to a myriad of things---e.g. where they work, their manner of dress or grooming, their interpersonal behavior, their manner of speech, how and when they will spend money, when and with whom they will orgasm, etc.

quote:

Who has power in your relationship?

Master.

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 10

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 11:04:58 AM

kinkyfetishlife

Posts: 16
Joined: 3/23/2010
Status: offline

I thought I would chime in since I helped this along on another thread.

First, your house being worth a lot of money does give you power, even if you are broke now, it's your net worth, your value and it's way better than someone who lives in an apartment and is broke. You could get money now if you had to because your house is worth a lot of money if sold.

I'm not sure how relevant that example is to power in a relationship.

The submissive/slave agrees to submit or become a slave, this option is power. The power is in the choice. A sub/slave will find someone they are compatible with, make sure the limits match, this was said over and over again in the other thread, so that the hard limit issue never comes up. I asked do slaves have hard limits, not counting illegal or go kill yourself stuff. They continuously said, His limits are my limits, but they already knew what those limits were before making the decision to be that persons sub/slave.

Power doesn't have to be, He does what I say, the slave obeys because they want to obey, that is at least equal power. Even if they don't want to obey that particular time, in the overall relationship, they want to please that person, make that person happy, however you want to say it, so they obey regardless.

At anytime, a slave/sub could say no. They may not have the mental strength to do that, but they could. They may be released for it, they may be punished in some way, they may feel really bad about it, the relationship may never be the same again, however horrible anyone wants to say it will be, for both people, but the fact remains, they could say no, they could leave, they could stop it all on the spot at anytime. Same goes for the other person of course.

Someone may say, "No, I couldn't", but that's your own mind-set, you place that on yourself.

The power, at it's core, the base of it all, has to be considered equal. This isn't the Roman Empire or America when slavery was legal, this is a desired relationship, an agreement, a choice.

I am in no way trying to downplay the intensity and seriousness of anyone's relationship. I am not trying to make light of it or saying that anyone is "playing" slave, I don't believe that to be true, my only point is that the power is shared.

I don't think most would prefer a slave/sub that was a slave/sub because they were so weak, so mentally broken, so filled with self hatred that they were easily made into a slave. What I have read here tells me that most love, adore and respect their slave and that is all given back to them. This is not a person with no power. They want to be a slave or they want to be a particular persons slave, either way, they need it, they aren't forced into it so the power is shared.

(in reply to jbcurious)

Post #: 11

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 12:51:55 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I'd say this would be clearer if we changed the word power, to authority. You go to work, you have the power to quit. But until then, your boss has the authority.

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to kinkyfetishlife)

Post #: 12

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 12:58:40 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkyfetishlife
I am in no way trying to downplay the intensity and seriousness of anyone's relationship. I am not trying to make light of it or saying that anyone is "playing" slave, I don't believe that to be true, my only point is that the power is shared.

OK, I'm going to stop over-analyzing and simply go with the words "power" and "control". I fully believe you that you are not downplaying my relationship. I also think you're not getting it either and since you seem to want to, I'll give it another go.

I have the power and control, Carol does not. That includes the power to terminate the M/s relationship and/or the marriage. See your cmail for clarification.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to kinkyfetishlife)

Post #: 13

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 1:11:33 PM

belladevine

Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
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Intelligence is the single most important factor seperating Humans from the rest of the animal world. Intelligence is what makes Humans dominant and powerful.

Money is also powerful. Some people are not smart enough to be self sufficient so they become financially dominated.

Thinking is a choice. Leaving is a choice.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 14

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 2:22:30 PM

SirRussellP

Posts: 107
Joined: 1/10/2006
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Yes the slave/sub has the power to end a relationship and leave but that
is a power that ends everything much like death. She give me her power and control not because our limits are exactly the same but because she trusts that I will never really harm her. She obeys me because she has that level of trust in me. That trust is both the power and control that we each have in the other.

Russell

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 15

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 2:30:21 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

There have been a few threads lately in which the idea that the submissive partner (sub, slave, property, etc.) has all the power in a D/s relationship has come up. The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one. Aside from the fact that a Dom can leave any time, too, I don't get the logic to the argument. As I explained it in one thread, I think equating "the power to leave" with "real power" is a mistake. Isn't that like saying that because my house would be worth a ton of money if I sold it, I have a lot of money? Only if I sell my house, which I don't plan to do. Up until the moment I sell the house, I have very little money (if any). I see the leaving as power thing similarly. Until the moment I leave, where's my power?

In my mind, power is about control, and if all I can control is when I leave, I just don't see how that's "all the power" in the relationship. If I'm with someone for 20 years and for 20 years my power amounts to being able to leave, can it really be siad that for 20 years I had "all the power" in the relationship? I just don't see it. Furthermore, if the sub has "all the power," that means the Dom is powerless. Now that I really don't see.

How do you define power? What do s-types and D-types do that demonstrate their power? Who has power in your relationship?

I am especially curious about D-types feeling powerless and s-types feeling powerful in D/s relationships.

As an advocate of the lifestyle "Power Exchange" philosophy, I find 'power' fairly simple to rationalise in my mind....

It goes like this. It is a basic fact of life that *anyone* who has something you desire has a certain power over you - anyone! As a Dom, a fem/sub possesses qualities I desire that vanilla women do not. Those qualities amount to power; the power of attraction, if you like.... And I've been around long enough to know I possess equally unique Dom qualities that are attractive to fem/subs, qualities that vanilla men do not have. That's my power.

Those Dom or sub qualities are quite different from the other but they complement the other's needs and desires, making D & s mutually attractive to the other - which means the individual power is *equal* to the others. Bringing them together amounts to *Power Exchange*....

Lucy, your power (as a sub) isn't that you can leave, it's that your Dom would want you to stay. And of course, we're all human so the average D/s relationship isn't just about the D/s - there'd likely be other factors (more power) why your Dom wouldn't want you to just exercise the right to leave on some whim, and vice versa.

A D/s or M/s relationship isn't founded on power as ALL relationships begin with mutual desires of someone over another; D/s is founded on an unequal control or authority dynamic.

Focus.

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Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

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RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 2:43:16 PM

belladevine

Posts: 437
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirRussellP

Yes the slave/sub has the power to end a relationship and leave but that
is a power that ends everything much like death. She give me her power and control not because our limits are exactly the same but because she trusts that I will never really harm her. She obeys me because she has that level of trust in me. That trust is both the power and control that we each have in the other.

Russell

Why would leaving be like death? I have never met a man that I would trust completely.
It is the human nature of man to dominate.

If a man is given total trust chances are that the relationship will turn into abuse of power.
Being trapped in an unwanted relationship is worse than death.

Quite Frankley, I don't trust anybody. WHY? Because nobody I have ever met is fully trustworthy.

Reality check................ men lie, cheat and steal.

(in reply to SirRussellP)

Post #: 17

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 2:45:04 PM

CreativeDominant

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Joined: 3/11/2006
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Count me in on the idea of it not being so much about power as it is about authority. As was presented by another poster...and variations of which I've seen elsewhere...the power is the same. A submissive has the power to leave...they have the power to set limits, they have the power to disobey, they have the power to end the dynamic and take away the dominant's "right" to exert authority over her. A dominant has the power to leave...the have the power to set limits AND push those set by the submissive, the have the power to demand obedience, they have the power to end the dynamic and take away the submissive's "right" to submit to their control and guidance simply by taking away control and guidance.

I also prefer the words control and authority and trust and respect. Trust and respect must be present for either partner to submit/dominate. The list of other factors that need to be present for D/s to happen...whether in a casual setting or in a more serious manner...varies according to the individual. e.g.: for some, some sort of interpersonal relationship must exist---friends, friends with benefits, etc.---must exist in addition to the trust and respect in order for D/s to be considered.

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 18

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 3:19:33 PM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
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~FR~

I have the power to leave. I don't flaunt it though and I certainly don't wield it in the middle of a disagreement to turn the tide in my favor. Leaving is a last resort for me. When all else has failed and there is nothing left but a toxic shell of a relationship, then it is time. Everyone always has that option. It's not a pretty one though and it is about as serious a consequence as it can get.

It drives me nuts to listen to people constantly advising others to ditch their relationships.  Any and every little thing can spawn that and it is ridiculous. There are going to be hard times in relationships and there are going to be times when we let each other down and even just mess up beyond any comprehension. That doesn't mean a pile of beans.  Is it something that happens consistently? How do the people in the relationship handle such things? Do they come out better or worse for the wear? It actually matters.

I know after my posts about the "one strike" thing that this sounds a bit hypocritical. That just means that there was confusion over what falls into that category of a "strike". Just like with how I view it from the submissive position, there are few and very serious issues that would result in there being nowhere left to go but our separate ways. It is the exact same thing on both sides. He has a few areas that I simply cannot transgress and we will remain a stable and healthy couple. I do as well. Frankly, there is almost complete overlap on these point. Only a sparse few are not in common and that has to do with being on different sides of the power dynamic.

It is a very insecure place to be to feel like any false move will mean that the other person will step both feet out the door. It is emotionally manipulative and petty as far as I'm concerned.  This is the sense I had of things at first with my partner and it really made for a lot of anxiety on my part thinking if I just said one thing not quite proper or did one thing wrong or messed up that it would all be over. I finally was able to relax when I understood more and he showed me how he wasn't going to leave or abandon me over minor things. I have to admit I got a little naughty at that point simply because I felt comfortable and knew it was safe. My behavior was addressed and I finally settled back in to more appropriate actions. It didn't matter why my behavior was going the way it was.  It was handled. Of course, apparently a little being human didn't end the relationship like I had feared in the beginning. I owe him the same courtesy for his humanity too.

Relationships do tend to take some work. They are not fun and perfect all the time. People who seem to think that they should be are working on dying alone.  I work hard on my relationships. Of course, I value them and the people included in them greatly. When I don't value either, then they are pretty expendable. If a relationship is so expendable, how on earth can anyone say they are in a committed and intimate relationship? Commitment means you are going to stay when everyone else has walked out.  It means you face the hard things in life together. It means you work on yourself to be the best you can be for the other. It means you help them want to be better both for you and for themselves. It means work. It means tears and pain at times. I am tired of the fluffy bunny idealism. Life is down and dirty, unfair, and takes no prisoners.  I will not turn over those I care about quite so easily. I will roll up my sleeve, get just as dirty and ugly as I have to and wear my war wounds proudly.  Yes, the door to leave may be there, but it is not there for me to use frivolously.

lovingpet

PS: It seems I have somehow merged two threads into on in my head. I'll leave the post but realize it is a little bit off track.

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 4/8/2010 3:22:15 PM >

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If you put your head into more, you'd have to put your back into less. ~Me

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Post #: 19

RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is powe... - 4/8/2010 4:02:51 PM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
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Status: offline

Consent is power.When you give it you are handing over control but only on your own terms. Whatever control the dominant has derives from the consent he was given by the submissive. To see that the submissive truly has the power in the dynamic you only need to look as far as some of the common conditions otherwise known as limits. When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.

Just my two cents.

_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 20

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