RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (Full Version)

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sweetsub1957 -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/1/2010 11:17:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelslilbit
if you're saying you love it, how is it forced?

i've often wondered the same thing. Maybe it's a case of they actually do really want to do whatever it is, but they just can't allow themselves to, so they need someone to "force" them so they won't feel guilty for indulging? That way they can tell themselves "i didn't really want to, but He/She made me do it."

~sweetsub~



thatsub -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 10:34:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty

Um actually...

the appeal of "forced" is/can be that the sub in question actually does NOT like the specific activity, however they do very much like the fact that someone has the power to make them do something they do not like.

Mind you plenty of people do use it as a gateway to fantasies they can't quite yet embrace on their own, but not always.

Hasn't anyone here ever submitted to something they don't like because it was what their partner wanted?

Same mentality, just clouded by a bit more controversy.


I think you are right on.

The major appeal of forced bi is, that for a straight person it is the ultimate humiliation. They don't like the act itself, but like how the whole thing makes them feel. It is more about surrender than the sexual act itself.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 12:05:44 PM)

Liking the force of something isn't the same as liking the thing itself.  The thing itself tends to just be a "holder" for a particular set of emotions and reactions towards "ickiness."

Being forced to interact with the thing plays on those emotions and reactions, but it's the force itself that's desired.  You need an equivalent "ickiness" in order to gain the right sense of "force."

Just like tons of subs who say "It doesn't FEEL dominant if he..." 



laurell3 -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 12:07:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty

Um actually...

the appeal of "forced" is/can be that the sub in question actually does NOT like the specific activity, however they do very much like the fact that someone has the power to make them do something they do not like.

Mind you plenty of people do use it as a gateway to fantasies they can't quite yet embrace on their own, but not always.

Hasn't anyone here ever submitted to something they don't like because it was what their partner wanted?

Same mentality, just clouded by a bit more controversy.


I think you are right on.

The major appeal of forced bi is, that for a straight person it is the ultimate humiliation. They don't like the act itself, but like how the whole thing makes them feel. It is more about surrender than the sexual act itself.



Agreed with both, but look at it in the context of the relationship, they aren't vehemently opposed to it, but they aren't really bi and they do it for the person that they trust at their direction. For me that is the key, they are surrendering their will to the other person and doing it for them.



Andalusite -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 6:06:58 PM)

Most people who ask for "forced bi" or "forced feminisation" don't seem to actually do it in a submissive way. They want to force the Domme to follow their script![:'(] Nothing wrong with forced play in general, if both people are on the same page, but when it's all their idea, they aren't submitting IMHO.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 6:33:57 PM)

quote:

but when it's all their idea, they aren't submitting IMHO


So if the sub has the idea to do an entire makeover of the kitchen with spring cleaning, gets permission, gets all excited and happy and does a great job and creates a fabulous new kitchen within time and money budget...she's not submitting at all?

Let's get over this false idea that we're martyrs here.

Yes, if we're talking a play scene dictated by the bottom in their framework and the service top simply provides the vehicle for the situation, obviously there's no submission there.

But lifes usually more complex and involved than that- trying to say "If it's your idea and you really enjoy it then it's not submission" just doesn't cut it.



thatsub -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 6:42:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

... but when it's all their idea, they aren't submitting IMHO.

If I ask someone to whip me senseless, it does not mean that I am faking my screams and it does not mean my brain is wired differently, so that I can orgasm from excess of pain. I still think that asking for something is not the same thing as fully enjoying it were it not forced. Take me, for example, I am straight and I am not turned on by males nor do I have any fantasies about them at any time; however, idea of forced-bi does turn me on if I am forced by a female.



Andalusite -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/10/2010 7:01:17 PM)

LA, there's nothing whatsoever wrong with a submissive/etc. requesting something, and their enjoying it doesn't make them unsubmissive. However, if there is no room in the script for the Dominant to be creative, then I don't see it as submission at all. In your scenario, if the Dominant wants maple cabinet faces, sunny yellow walls, and light blue curtains, and the submissive insists on pink walls, white curtains with pink flowers, and white cabinet facings, since that was her dream kitchen since she was a kid, she isn't being submissive by insisting on it! Hopefully, the two of them could find a compromise that they're both happy with. Heck, the Dominant might even decide to indulge her and let her have her way. *shrugs* My Master encourages me to ask for things I want, and I encourage my submissive playpartner to tell me what she likes. Heck, even if she did give me a fairly detailed scenario, I might decide to indulge her - nothing wrong with that. I just wouldn't think of my following her script as her submitting to me, for that one particular scene.

thatsub, I've talked about this on the forums before, and I mentioned the only way I'd be into bisexual play would be in the context of a poly relationship, with lots of snuggles and going on dates all three of us together, and got a lot of "Eww, cuddling with a guy is a hard limit! I want his dick in my mouth/up my ass, but I don't want to talk to him!" kind of responses. I'm not looking anymore, so it's a moot point, but I got a fairly negative impression of people who wanted forced play so far. None of them seemed the slightest bit open to my having any input. One guy who messaged me on the other side even expected me to orgasm with no stimulation but watching him parade around in panties. So, I tend to think of them as a bunch of people who are focused on their fantasy, not my reality. I like humiliation play in some contexts, but what they were demanding just didn't push my buttons in a positive way. Nothing wrong with what they want, if they can get it, but they sure as heck weren't going to get it from me, even though I had some interest in male-male stuff and in helping guys cross-dress. Their mindset was completely incompatible with mine about the same activities.

I enjoy physical "force" play with both my Master and my submissive playpartner - wrestling around and playfighting are fun! I can do humiliation play with her in a way that actually flows for me, and that I find amusing or intriguing, instead of stilted and boring.



switch2please -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/14/2010 9:57:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

The idea of 'forced' - [insert 'feminisation', 'bi', 'service', whatever] - in BDSM involves ambivalence - contradictory feelings, contradictory thoughts. The confusion only arises because people take it for granted that contradictory feelings and thoughts shouldn't - or even can't - exist. They 'shouldn't exist' because this seems 'unreasonable' and 'illogical'. But, since when has anything been involved in sexual desires been reasonable and logical?

...........................

BDSM is full of contradictions, right to the very core. We can't get resolve them all, so we might just as well have fun with those that we can't. My own little tip for a start towards getting to that position is to look at those on CM who are saying to you, 'Your kink is unreasonable', and say, 'Yeah right. Look who's talking'.


Well said. I do enjoy some 'forced' roleplay, which does seem to be a contradiction in terms...and an anomaly in my own life, since the thought of wanting someone to use me doesn't fit with my self-sufficient independent lifestyle.

For me it's a release, it's a fantasy that can't be acted upon without a partner I'm incredibly comfortable with and a safe setting in which to roleplay. Since the fantasy itself is all about being unsafe I have to trust him to throw me around without actually hurting me, and he has to be very rough for me to get that taboo thrill - but when it gets to that point I can nearly always reach subspace. There are times during such a roleplay that I'm convinced that I am actually in danger and afraid, sometimes humiliated by how easily he handles me, and these are intense emotions that I don't usually feel in real life - this is a safe outlet for them. After a 'forced' roleplay I do need aftercare, which consists of some ferocious cuddling and reassurance that he wouldn't really hurt me, then water and a snack and a couple tylenol as I realize how hard he actually pulled my hair and how far he twisted my arms behind my back lol. I don't notice these things so much in subspace, so he has to be very familiar with my physical and emotional limits.

A craving to be 'forced' isn't necessarily contradictory - for me it's a way of experiencing intense emotions and feeling absolutely helpless without being in any actual danger. I'm far from a damsel in distress in other situations, so it's nice sometimes to know there's no hope of success and - the most important part to reconcile this with my psyche - there's nothing I could do to change the outcome.
He used me but it's not my fault. He made me do it. And I love that.



cloudboy -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/14/2010 8:25:15 PM)

quote:

A craving to be 'forced' isn't necessarily contradictory


That's right, wanting to do something and then be "strapped into" doing it dovetail nicely. Ergo the expression, "be careful what you wish for."



DaddysInkedSlut -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (5/15/2010 5:47:10 PM)

To me when someone says they want to be "forced" into something means that it something they are uncomfortable with, unfamiliar with or simply afraid to try but want to be pushed into doing it by someone.



tarkanas -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/2/2011 5:30:27 PM)

I look at "forced" in a slightly different way then has been discussed here so far. I love forced bi, but I think that I would probably be with another man without being forced. For me the turn on is the woman telling me to do it. You could read into this as me not wanting to ID myself as bi but I don't think thats it, its just a lot more fun when someone else is controlling it. Now this isnt to say that all subs who like forced feel this way but I would suspect that at least a few do. 



JustStephen -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/21/2011 1:08:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelslilbit
if you're saying you love it, how is it forced?

i've often wondered the same thing. Maybe it's a case of they actually do really want to do whatever it is, but they just can't allow themselves to, so they need someone to "force" them so they won't feel guilty for indulging? That way they can tell themselves "i didn't really want to, but He/She made me do it."

~sweetsub~

Spot on in my view but only half of the issue. Confusing I know but apart from the above there is also the possibility that the sub likes the physical (bondage, beating etc) and or emotional/psychological (humiliation?) side of being forced.

Being forced can fulfill more than one dream.




bornbothsexes -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/22/2011 4:34:22 AM)

I know I do not think there is much I can say I would be forced to do ,but to put up a little fuss to make it more of his will would be fun to let my master think it was only because of hi wishes would add to it.



zero69u2 -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/22/2011 9:27:48 AM)

how often are you even going to play out this fantasy ?
For a Dominant male that means finding not just one but two bi female playmates to act out this bi scene..
For a dominant female she has to have a bi or gay male sub and another willing participant..

Its not forced but its asking for a devil made me do it type scene... (either the switch was bi to begin with or the devil made him/her turn bi.)

For that matter.. lets just consider orgy with 4 people.. since it will be easier to find a playful couple then a single bi person.
If the dom forces bi on his sub.. should'nt he be playing with the same book. ( if shes got to eat pussy, he can suck a dick. you know that might play out kinda funny and end this fantasy real quick. if he has to play by the same forced playbook.)



Chulain -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/28/2011 12:24:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mastFOX
they like to act like they do not want to.

Exactly. Contrary beliefs notwithstanding, no one can be forced to do anything he or she does not want to do (in a consensual setting; law-breaking is always possible, of course).



sexyred1 -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/28/2011 2:17:18 PM)

So what? Consensual non-consensual force is just hot.

Not everyone is overly concerned with the realty of the terms and it is never confusing to those of us who like that sort of thing.

You know, like rape play, etc. We KNOW it is not REAL rape, but it sure feels like it when we are doing it.

And that is what makes it fun.



Chulain -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (1/28/2011 3:09:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
So what? Consensual non-consensual force is just hot.

No, two women together is hot. Gay. But hot.

quote:

You know, like rape play, etc. We KNOW it is not REAL rape, but it sure feels like it when we are doing it.

How would you know, unless you've been raped?



DommeKeliDallas -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (3/23/2011 2:32:17 PM)

STRAIGHT men would NEVER want another man.

Dr. Phil said it best...
"There is no such thing as a man being "bi." He is just a GAY man who happens to like women.

I am STRAIGHT.
The thought of being with a woman repulses me.

"FORCED" is just a fantasy."



BonesFromAsh -> RE: The concept of "forced"...CONFUSED!! (3/23/2011 2:39:24 PM)

Removed because reviving a dead thread is silly. *Looks up at the previous poster........ [8|]*



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