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Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 7:30:01 AM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		I am finding myself facing a quandry that is difficult to find a solution for at this time.  There are also a number of other factors involved, which I will mention in due course.  Any and all input will be read, considered and possibly commented on, so feel free to say what you please.

I have been involved with BD/SM since roughly 9th grade.  I discovered it by reading through the original D.S.M. for mental disorders and it intrigued me.  A way of life that actually corresponded to my own desires, which I had come to think of as being abnormal, but instead seemed to be fairly commonplace.  By my junior year of high school, I was collared and in training, but not as a true submissive, but as a Dominant.  I won't deny that there is a submissive side to me, but it is more in terms of my cutting, which is dependant upon my self-perception of worth to others.  But I digress.

I have either trained, helped train, or outright collared 9 submissives, 2 being male, although there was no sex involved in those two relationships.  Of those remaining 7, I have had to release only 1 due to an inability to follow the rules and structures which we had both agreed upon from the start.

Recently, I encountered my first true switch, which created several different difficulties than I had ever encountered in the past.  As a Dominant, she could easily be the match for most others in terms of sheer will power, determination and outright sadism.  As a submissive, however, she was exceptionally - I guess the term would be lacking.  That, however, could easily be because she considers herself a feminist, and the concept of a male having dominion over her was somewhat distasteful, although she did have a strong affection for masochism.

I have asked and re-asked the other Dominants that I keep in regular touch with about this, and they are at as much of a loss as to what to do as I am.  So I am bringing the question here in hopes of gaining some kind of an insight, since I have frequently noted that switches tend to "be" with other switches.

How can you, when you are in "Dom Mode" convince a switch that what she is doing is detrimental to every facet of her life when what she is doing is feeding the Dominant side of her personality?  I have tried punishments, but they only remain an impact on her for as long as it takes for the memory of the disappointment and physical discomfort to fade.

Any suggestions would be useful for future reference, since this particular person is no longer a part of my life.  I do not, however, want to be caught unawares the next time a situation like this arises, and I am certain that it eventually will.

Respectfully,
Dustyn
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 7:46:05 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Sit down and ask her "Exactly what do you want and how do you expect to get there?  How do you feel when this happens?  What's going on when you misbehave?" 

Blaming having some "dom personality" or switch self is a cop out- if you agree to obey anothers authority, then you follow that agreement.  If you aren't ready for the agreement or are unsure about it, then you talk first.

You can also say "I feel very confused and at a loss when you tell me you agree to this and then do not follow through.  Are you changing your mind?  Are you unsure but don't want to disappoint or is it something else?"

Open up the communication channels, it sounds like she just might have a very limited scope for submission and you might have to just accept it.  Or she might be having a lot of problems relaxing and being secure as the one without authority and she needs to reconcile herself to that.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 7:56:04 AM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Lucky, The problem with opening the lines of communication is that this person seems to have no desire to discuss her problems, or even face them for the most part.  One can only offer a helping hand and have it bit so many times before the hand is not offered again.

I feel very strongly for this person, despite the fact that she is married and it is not to me.  The fact that she is has never been an issue to me, but in the process of trying to draw this problem out of her, she has come to think of me as being obsessed with her.  In truth, I don't want to abandon her, because I know her husband has no experience with what she is dealing with, and I, on the other hand, took this same problem to a much more damaging extent.

I am terrified of the thought of her going through the Hells I did trying to move past the problem, but she is intent on diving headfirst into self-destruction.  She dismisses any of what I went through as so much "hogwash", although she's never actually used that term.  Her terms are much more colorful, and not polite to repeat in mixed company, shall we say.  What she has done has honestly made me feel very minimalized and somewhat used.

I've never cared for confrontation, despite being a naturally aggressive person.  Happen to have any ideas on how to discuss it without allowing her to turn it into a fight?  We both have hair triggers on our tempers, which probably helps nothing.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:06:45 AM   
fergus


Posts: 1110
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		Top, bottom, switch, whatever.....

If there can be no communication, there can be no relationship.  That person is just to locked up within themselves, in WHATEVER role they happen to be going by.

This is not a 'switch' problem so much as it is 'this individual's' problem.  I say move on and keep your eyes open!

fergus

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:21:59 AM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Fergus, the reason that I posted here, instead of elsewhere, is that this person is most assuredly a switch, and that dynamic is what is affecting the other dynamics, at least in my opinion.  SO what better way to gain perspective than to ask other switches?  There is at least a reasonable chance that another switch might fathom the dynamic better than I have, since I am primarily (99.99999%) Dominant in any BD/SM relationship I have ever been in.

Since this person is also a member here and peruses the forums from time to time, this is a last ditch effort on my part to try and convey some of what I have been thinking, since she is very analytical and will most likely read the posts.

(in reply to fergus)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:29:52 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn
Since this person is also a member here and peruses the forums from time to time, this is a last ditch effort on my part to try and convey some of what I have been thinking, since she is very analytical and will most likely read the posts.


I agree with Fergus- has nothing to do with what orientation she is.  If she's confused, scared, stubborn, has no idea what she really wants...whatever- any of that can be processed and moved beyond but ONLY if there is constant and productive communication.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:45:16 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Dustyn,
Disclaimer: My definition of a switch is someone who has both Dom and sub tendencies and is smack in the middle of a dichotomy scale that has Dominant on one end and submissive on the other. I recognize that we are all on this scale, but in different places. I’d be about 90% Dominant, so I subscribe to this section, even identifying as a Master. I’d consider a “full” (I avoid “true”) switch to be someone smack in the middle of the scale.

Perhaps where she is on the scale makes her a masochistic Dominant (something more like me) rather than a full switch. She doesn't really care about the service side of submission...she wants to bottom. Some people choose "controversial" labels such as switch in order to have a reason to rebel or to be a victim. It's the same thing as dressing outrageously, then complaining that people stare.

I’m not sure, however, how this realization, if it’s even true, will help your situation. You simply cannot force someone to change, even if we are the Grand Pooba of Domination. If she’s truly absorbed with the negative side of her Victim archetype, she may take (subconsciously, probably) what you tell her and use it against herself, bringing in the Saboteur archetype to make it happen. Perhaps reverse psychology might work better? Or perhaps, if she’s truly a masochistic Dominant, you need to find a different form of punishment/motivation for her other than corporal. Or, if she’s having problems submitting to a man, maybe she needs a female Dominant.

It also sounds like a Rescuer archetype might be kicking in for you. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but you have to realize that some people simply do not want to be rescued or aren’t in a place where they can be. And, some people have a strong Dependent/Needy Child archetype, in which they are totally oblivious to someone else’s needs, which might be another reason she won’t talk to you (she doesn’t even see your need for discussion on the matter).

In the end, you have to decide how the relationship is affecting you. Can you afford, emotionally and psychologically, to be in the relationship where someone who says she wants your control constantly rebels against it? On the flip side, can you handle having to let go of something you cannot change and risk feeling like a failure (which you’re not…but you might feel like it)?

It’s a tough call. We strive to love people unconditionally…which means accepting them exactly as they are. However, we can choose to love from a distance and let go of the attachments that we feel. That ain’t easy, though. Can you let go of your desire to help her? I’m not sure that I could.

Fire
Archetype stuff: http://myss.com/FourArchs.asp

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 4/5/2006 8:51:34 AM >

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to fergus)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:53:26 AM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		I guess I am just at a loss of what to do and thought that perhaps others not directly involved with the relationship might have a cleaner perspective than mine.  My patience is being pushed to the absolute breaking point when we try to discuss things, but within 10 minutes of being apart and not talking, I find myself wanting to talk more.

As a Dominant, it's very distasteful to me to admit that this is ultimately a losing battle.  I suppose that I just have to accept the fact that while I don't want to let her go through this on her own, I am going to have to.  Hopefully she won't have to die for 5 minutes in an emergency room to find out that I knew what I was talking about all along.

I suppose there is always the chance that I am not as Dominant as I might have thought myself to be, but somehow I doubt this is likely.  More along the lines of a stubborn, hard-headed woman purposely trying my patience to make me conform to the past actions of other men in her life.  Either way, though, I'm still the one standing here thinking I had to have done something wrong somewhere to elicit this kind of a response from her.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 9:21:47 AM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		He enters, dips His lid............
great post! great advice so   far from Lucky, Fergus and Master!

This issue resonates to me from past personal circumstance and I'll take it one step further......

I too had a woman who was similar-  firstly though I'd sate that it takes extremely exceptional circumstances for anyone who recognizes as being 'real time' and is married as getting my vote for being able to understand D/s dynamic.  Simply how  can they can true to themselves if they cant be honest with others- partic their signif or supposed signif others. They seek personal freedom at the expense of others hurt.

I am 'real' and expect others that I may 'play' with to be the same.....

My switch was/is really a bottom who tops.  She was a bottom to me, yet entertained, fantisized topping women, yet was unable to understand the 'dynamic' of D/s yet wished to be in it.  This caused concern for me cos she wanteed to 'sub- space' yet (I believe) because of her own confusion was unable to.   My two sub girls were 'put off' by her cos she wanted to flogg them yet did not/ or mentally refused to look at herself and her wants. Both my poly girls refused/well expressed concern (understandably) cos they questioned what they would obtain from the experience.  Like I knew they both would not space.   It also meant that the bottom/top was unable to 'space' which hindered my ewnjoyment.  Like has been said,  cut her loose, assess what is right for you, acknowledge that Dom takes energy and do you wish to waste energy that could be expended with another with far more enjoyable results!?   I'd have considered myself to be a Dom Doormat I'd I'd continued and she wasnt married, attached even.    For me the ultimate is the giving of security to 'space' to have no hope of that is a waste of my energy.
Ultimately we are all responsible for our own actions as we learn.

This girl is now happier having explored aspect of BDSM that I had previously encourage her to do- yet she preferred me to hand feed her, yet disappointed me....

Get the response you require as a Dom, that's my rant man.


_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 9:55:30 AM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		I have to wonder at your motivations for remaining involved with this dominant masochist.  In your first post you say she is no longer part of your life, but later posts seem to indicate that is not the case at all. She does not want to communicate with you, does not want your advice, and even resents it.  Saying she feels you are obsessed with her tells me she does not see you attention as a positive.

quote:

My patience is being pushed to the absolute breaking point when we try to discuss things, but within 10 minutes of being apart and not talking, I find myself wanting to talk more.


Umm, maybe you are a tad bit obsessed after all?   Does one single topic (her) or one single emotion preoccupy you excessively? W/in ten minutes seems excessive to me, but I also have a short attention span. :)

quote:

As a Dominant, it's very distasteful to me to admit that this is ultimately a losing battle. 


I think this really nails it right here.  You can point out you have strong feelings, care about her..whatever.  But you are also likely used to managing situations and managing people, feeling in control. Your inability to "fix" this is frustrating and you feel like it is your responsibility -- that her self destruction is your responsibility.  It is not.  It is out of your control.

I am not exactly understanding what you are trying to save her from or why you fret over dead-in-the-ER images. I assume you fear she will play foolishly and hurt herself, accidentally or intentionally. I don't know if this is a valid fear or if you are creating this fear in an effort to rationalize why you must stay involved with her.  After all, no decent person will just stand by and do nothing when someone is putting their life in danger, right??

Either way, she is going do whatever she is going to do.  It sounds like you have been available and given her options. They are her choices and her consequences. It is not your responsibility. 

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 12:06:41 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		"Umm, maybe you are a tad bit obsessed after all?   Does one single topic (her) or one single emotion preoccupy you excessively? W/in ten minutes seems excessive to me, but I also have a short attention span. :)"

No, the single topic of her does not dominate my thoughts or my actions.  Do I worry about her constantly?  Yes.  I have some mental problems because of what I did and she is doing much the same thing.  I have a right as a human being to worry about her.  I have walked the same general path that she is on and the end result will not be pleasant.  I would spare her that pain, but she is intent on dive head-first into it.

What also concerns me is when she is the most interested in BD/SM, she has also been indulging her problem as well.  I am afraid that she will go "play" with someone else and find herself badly hurt in one form or another.  This is another good reason for me to worry.

I have known all along that her relationship with me was fleeting at best.  That doesn't mean that, as either a Dominant, or Dominant, or as a friend, I should turn a blind eye to very self destructive behavior, does it?

(in reply to Sensualips)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 2:56:04 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		You have a right to feel however you feel, worried or unhappy or concerned or whatever.  You stated one of the reasons you posted was because those not directly involved may have a cleaner persepctive.  It is hard to have an accurate perspective without all the information.

quote:

What also concerns me is when she is the most interested in BD/SM, she has also been indulging her problem as well.  I am afraid that she will go "play" with someone else and find herself badly hurt in one form or another.  This is another good reason for me to worry.


Okay, so she is using drugs or alcohol and then playing?  And your concern is two fold -- the effects of substance abuse and then the safety concerns about mixing the substance abuse/impaired judgement with bdsm? If I am off track, let me know.

quote:

That doesn't mean that, as either a Dominant, or Dominant, or as a friend, I should turn a blind eye to very self destructive behavior, does it?


That is a very individualized question and only you can determine what you "should" do.  I believe you should recognize this is not your fault, that it is extremely unlikely you could have prevented it, that it is not your job to fix it, and you probably can't fix it no matter how desperately you try.

It has nothing to do with her being a switch or you being a Dom.  It is all about her being responsible for her own choices. If she is intent to dive in as you say, you can only choose if you will be there to support her when she crashes.

I would also consider if this is a healthy relationship for you.

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 4:52:33 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What also concerns me is when she is the most interested in BD/SM, she has also been indulging her problem as well.  I am afraid that she will go "play" with someone else and find herself badly hurt in one form or another.  This is another good reason for me to worry.


Okay, so she is using drugs or alcohol and then playing?  And your concern is two fold -- the effects of substance abuse and then the safety concerns about mixing the substance abuse/impaired judgement with bdsm? If I am off track, let me know.

I will say that you are on the track quite nicely, on both issues.


(in reply to Sensualips)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 5:07:52 PM   
CAROLF


Posts: 56
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline 		I think, this has nothing much to do with BD/SM D/s.  I think it is being a human being.  It may be time for tough love.  Let it go, let her go.  Semsualips hit it right on the head,......we all have choices.  Your friend has made hers, she does not want your involvement.  wish her well, say good bye, move on.  She will always know where to find you trust me...........if needed..............she will find you :)  good luck to you....

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:25:21 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		"She will always know where to find you trust me"

Herein lies the problem, I honestly think.

She is either too stubborn or too proud to ask anyone for help, unless purposely hounded into it by someone, and even then, I'd rather talk a tiger out of his fangs.

Being a cold-hearted bastard, I am fully and completely willing to wash my hands of her entire existence.  Half of me is more than willing to sit in the stands and simply watch her entire life implode because of raging stupidity.

The other half, having watched myself implode, would spare her that pain and grief.

Which do I choose?  Can I choose in the first place?  Do I watch another human being throw away their potential with indifference or do I fight against her nature?

I truthfully have no other choice than to sit back and watch.  It breaks my heart to watch it, and I despise feeling helpless, but I guess there is nothing else to do.

The only true reason that I brought this up in terms of a BD/SM relationship is that I tried, futilely, to set limits for her as her dominant.  Limits that she, herself, proposed after admitting that she does indeed have a problem.  Limits that I am not sure was willing to accept.

She has to hit rock bottom, I guess, before she bounces back up.  The only question is will she splatter (I.E. never truly recover) or actually bounce.

Thank you all for the input.  It was much the same things that I had been thinking, but there was no way that I could see all the options.  I was hoping for other options, but I suppose there are none.

(in reply to CAROLF)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 8:56:16 PM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Maybe it's as simple as the two of you not working out together. Sub, Dom, Swtich are roles, people are still people and not everyone is going to work out well in a relationship. I do count BDSM as a relationship, even if you're not making it long term or romantic, it is still intimate and close.

From the little I know from your first post, I think you and she just clashed in personality style. She didn't feel sub-like with you. Instead being with you brought out feelings of being aggressive. I don't like saying feminist cause people have given that word a militant meaning, rather than taking it as a concern and comradery for women.


_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 9:06:44 PM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		I read more of this thread now. I would only add that you can't make someone help themselves. People have to want to change or all the help you give will not get very far.

I got my ex husband through agoraphobia, later blamed everything on me. All the negative changes in his life were my fault. The divorce was wretched cause I lost a friend even before I lost a husband. In the end all I had was myself, pretty much literally. The point is, even if you do help someone, you may only be hurting yourself. In the end will you still be glad you tried to help or will you look back and just feel wounded and alone? I'm not even sure I helped that much. I became a new crutch for awhile and then he settled back into a new rut.


_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to Laura)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/5/2006 11:15:36 PM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Early on, before we actually did anything even remotely BD/SM, she labeled herself as a feminist.  I, personally, find the concept of any type "-ist" detrimental to any sort of a personal undertaking involving more than just yourself.  It's segregatory, at the very least, automatically forcing people into at least vague stereotypes and preconcieved notions.  It also somewhat skews perceptions of others, as far as I can tell.

Most, but not all, feminists that I have ever known would more readily accept help from a female than they would a male, simply because of the mindset of feminism as it has been explained to me.  I could be wrong in this, though, as a conclusion as to why, but it does not negate the fact that I have seen it time and time again.  That is the only reason I injected that little tidbit of information.  I was thinking that perhaps someone might have some insight into that aspect and whether or not it would be an influencing factor or not.

Nothing major, I suppose.  Just my nature to attempt to examine every angle to find the flaw.

(in reply to Laura)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/6/2006 10:20:11 AM   
VandalHeart


Posts: 1333
Joined: 9/12/2004
Status: offline 		Dustyn, seriously, quit lying to yourself.  You have agreements with thi person that you are violating just by posting here, but you're still taking it farther than that.  I hereby take plagiaristic rights (yeah, go work that one out right quick), and taking a page from DMX, "Let's add up all the factors..."

1. You are not, never were, and by the terms of your agreement with her at the beginning of your relationship with her, will never collar her in any way, shape or form.
2. I've heard of some pretty stupid thing to do as a Dom, but what I've seen and heard over the past few days has seriously pilfered the birthday pastry.
3. To anyone who knows anything about you, you're posts here on the Ask a Switch forums are the most blatant attempt at getting attention since the Tobacco companies spent three times the ammount they donated to charity in advertising that they did so.
4. Your actions over the past few weeks have been abhorrent to the point of easily being labelled odeous.
5. I've never met you in person, and I already fell about two steps away from abject hatred of you.  By the way, damn.
6. So she label herself a feminist, a switch, whatever.  So you think it pushes the relationship or any other towards segregation, so what.  Here's a hint, genius, that is her choice.  If this were a sub, I may have a different opinion (and no, I am not in the mood to discuss it), but on this, the opinion is thus: just because it doesn't agree with this black fantasy of yours does not mean that you can simply order and will it away.  In fact, I take back my earlier statement.  You can't even do that with a sub.
7. Destroying your piece of a matched pair of jewelry and delivering it to your intended's house while offering no explanation is not only low, it's manipulative, rude to heights I lack the words to comprehensively describe, and truly, truly pathetic.
8. (NOTE: My apologies to anyone who is offended by the following semi-sexit statements...deal) IF ANY WOMAN DEIGNS TO LAY WITH YOU, I DON'T CARE IF YOUR FREAKIN' FABIO, YOU SHOW SOME FUCKING RESPECT FOR HER WISHES FOR THE BASIS OF THE RELATIONSHIP.  DO YOU NOT LOOK AT YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR?  THE MALE FORM ISN'T EXACTLY BEAUTIFUL, AGAIN, EVEN IF YOUR FABIO.  JESUS MAN, GET A GRIP ON REALITY.  IF THIS REQUIRES THAT YOU CHECK YOURSELF IN TO SUNNYVALE INSTITUTE SOMEWHERE, THEN (FUCK!) DO IT.
9. You say that every relationship you have eventually ends in desertion and isolation.  Hmm, interesting. Well, consider this: the only consistent component of your failed relationships is you.
10. Lastly, I don't care how long you've been a Dom, you need some more practice, because you have not learned the difference between functional domineering behavior and outright arrogance.  Go get youself collared again, because you seriously need something else before you try anything aproaching a relationship of any kind, let alone a BDSM relationship.  Here's my advice, and for your own good, you had better shut up and listen.  Buy a potted plant.  Take care of it.  If it dies, get another one.  If you manage to keep a plant alive for a full year, get a dog.  If the plant dies after this, get another one and start your count over.  If the dog dies, either get another one or give up, but seriously consider giving up, because seriously, keeping the house clean with a dog, not easy, but keeping the dog alive, not real hard.  If you have kept the plant alive for two years, and the dog in good health for one year, then try a relationship, but until then, do us all a favor and move on, for the love of all things beautiful.

And now, to the rest of you, please do not indulge this fool.  He is delusional, and yes, Sensualips, he is obsessive.  The subject in question told him not to speak to her for two weeks.  He just called after two days.  I implore and urge all of you to stop posting on this thread, this man is crazy.

Thank you for you time, worship the antichrist, and have a nice day.

Sincerely,
Lord VandalHeart

(in reply to Dustyn)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Interesting dilema - 4/6/2006 10:29:00 AM   
Dustyn


Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/5/2006
Status: offline 		Two weeks? Fine.

Make it forever.  She is ghosted and so am I.

(in reply to VandalHeart)
Profile   Post #: 20
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