RE: African complicity in the slave trade....

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Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:13:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Maybe since you're not American (right?) you don't see these issues. Do you really think, for instance, that schools in the cities (that serve mainly black students) are of the same quality as schools in the suburbs (that serves mainly white students)? Forget reparations, for the moment. How about actual equality for once? But, yeah, I doubt many people would turn down a check in the mail! I am American actually, I was born and raised in Chicago, moved to Australia in 07, went back in 08, came back in 09. No, I don't think that taxpayer funded schools in the city of Chicago (median income $38,625) are of the same quality as taxpayer funded schools in, say, Naperville (median income $101,470) regardless of the race of the students. Actual equality? Never going to happen for more reasons than just race. But feel free to keep trying.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:15:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray The implication here is that we should be thankful for slavery, because if not for slavery then we wouldn't live in this great country. Part of the reason the country is great is because of the work of the slaves in the first place. Imagine if one day you got raped, and the rapist says, "Sure, I raped you, but look at all the wonderful friends you made at your support group." No, the implication is that something that happened over 150 years ago is not interchangeable with something that happens today. And it would be more like if some guy rescued me from drowning in a lake, and says "Hey, just for the record, my great-great-grandfather raped your great-great grandmother, so uh, feel free to yell at me and say I should have left you in the lake." Ok first, Africa is a big continent. Africa does not equal dying before 30 from civil war/famine/AIDS/violent rape and murder/all of the above. In many places that's true, in many places that is not true. Just like in California. Second, your counter-analogy is god-awful. It would make more sense if the guy got you out of the lake, raped you, and then it turned out there were sharks in the lake. Even then, would you be like, "Thanks for the rape dude!" Probably not. Especially since he made YOU do all the paddling. Actually, if you had been a slave, Violet, then i would agree with you. Your ancestors were (im assuming here). The damage wasnt done to you, but to your ancestors. Which would make Elisabella's example more accurate.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:18:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Ok first, Africa is a big continent. Africa does not equal dying before 30 from civil war/famine/AIDS/violent rape and murder/all of the above. In many places that's true, in many places that is not true. Just like in California. Second, your counter-analogy is god-awful. It would make more sense if the guy got you out of the lake, raped you, and then it turned out there were sharks in the lake. Even then, would you be like, "Thanks for the rape dude!" Probably not. Especially since he made YOU do all the paddling. This is true, Africa is a big continent, but aside from a few oil-rich countries in Northern Africa there aren't many that come close to average length/quality of life as the US. As far as the analogy goes - this discussion is about reparations for slavery so unless you, personally, were forcibly enslaved in the US the analogy is going to be about your ancestors (maybe? I don't know your family history) and not about you.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:23:32 PM)
Harrison Bergeron is Vonnegut at his lowest. Helping out the underclasses isn't the same as handicapping the most capable, except according to Tea Partiers. Precisely the opposite -- deregulating the rich basically caused the financial reform. Not black people who were targeted for 'sub prime' mortgages. I'm pushing for a world where none of the citizens are 'subprime'. If anything, school funding should be equally distributed, and private schools should be either shut down or forced to equally represent all classes with progressive fee policies. Otherwise it's the same old segregation, just keep changing the terms so that no one presumably will notice. There are more radical theoretical points I could make here, but... 'you can't handle the truth'! [:D] What do you think the first property was, anyway?

slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:26:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Wow, I don't know where to begin... Fortunatly I do....so lets take a look at your bullet points Before I begin, let me say that I think that trying to get reparations for slavery is a lost cause. Whether it's justified or not, I don't think its ever going to happen, and I certainly don't have the answers for how to go about paying reparations. But it's some of the rebuttal arguments here against the reparations that I find.... troubling. I think best with bullet points, so here we go: I think most would agree with you...whether justified or not it is unworkable....but for a minute lets look at justification.Suppose we are discussing general reparations....try to make a case why any American today should pay for crimes commited a few generations ago. Suppose we look at Banks and Corporations that it can be shown profited from the slave trade hundreds of years ago....Do the current investors of those same banks and corporations owe a debt for profits they never realised.Perhaps my grandmother bought stock in said bank 89 years ago....why should the value of those stocks take a hit,damaging my portfolio today....I,and my grandmother had nothing to do with slavery....just a few of the arguments against reparation...I' sure you and others could make a case for reparations. I'm just playing Devils advocate here. When people like to stress the role of African slave traders in the trade here in America, my question is always "What difference does it make?" How long did it take for that African to sell that slave? A couple days? The next couple hundred years of rape, murder, and being worked to death happened *here. Once they had their shiny new slave they could have let him go. But they chose* to keep him down. The 1st generation slave might have been sold by Africans, but his children, and his children's children, were all bought, sold, and put to work, here. Did Africa have slavery? Yes. You know what else Africa had? Murder. Now does that justify the murder of black people in America, or is murder wrong no matter where it happens? One I don't understand the whole "peopl like to stress" part...read the link,it has nothing to do with "stressing" it has to do with realising and addressing African complicity in the trade. What the legnth of time the deal takes to make is completley beyond me....and where you get the idea that anyone ...here or Mr Gates in the Op-Ed is trying or seeking in any way shape or form to justify anything is beyond me. Is this subject too volatile for you to discuss it in a dispassionate way? Were you able to actually read the columm that prompted this thread? People need to understand what the "Come on, slavery happened way back then" mindset sounds like to the rest of us. Sort of like a extinguishing a burning man and then telling him, "Yeah I know, setting you on fire was kind up messed up, but it's in the past now" and then refusing to acknowledge that he still has the burns. I started to go into this rant about the long term effects of slavery on race and class but I'm sure I don't need to, I have faith in you all :-) I'm not sure which of the posters,if any has givent that sort of reaction to slavery itself.Nothing I have read on this thread comes off like that....yes reparations is rejected along the lines of "we never owned slaves so why should we pay reparations"...Is that not a valid argument.The flip side of that is "you were never a slave why are you due compensation".Can that argument be rejected out of hand? In my opinion...though one could argue the opposite...one can not deny that both of those views have validity. Let those other countries that have slavery in their pasts worry about how to deal with slavery. This is our country so we're dealing with our slavery issues. And the reality is, that the country is what it is today because of the hundreds of years of free labor that fueled the economy of the fledgling nation. The whole reparations argument, futile as it may be, is about more than, "Oops, slavery. My bad." It's also about recompense for building the country. Not one poster here has come across with such a flippant attitude...and niether did Mr Gates piece....as a matter of fact other than perhaps Brain,Silence and apparently you...everyone else gave the gentlemans piece a great deal of respect. But like I said, won't ever happen, so it's a non-issue. Yes,it is.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:28:59 PM)
Your asking for the moon... something you will never achieve. quote: If anything, school funding should be equally distributed, and private schools should be either shut down or forced to equally represent all classes with progressive fee policies. Otherwise it's the same old segregation, just keep changing the terms so that no one presumably will notice. Schools have always been segregated when parents had the choice. Private schools, religious schools, even black schools.... no one wants to move towards total integration, and anyone who believes otherwise needs to unbury their heads from the sand.

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:29:12 PM)
I think that you misunderstand me, just a bit. I'm not saying that modern whites need to pay modern black people back for slavery. I'm saying that I don't feel like people are acknowledging the long-reaching implications of the institution at all. Here, maybe another analogy would help (sorry, it's just that I think in example, like that one guy from that Star Trek episode) Your dad mugs my dad. Now my dad has no money, and your dad has money. When he dies, he leaves that money to you. I say, "Hm, something's wrong here" and you say, "So? I didn't rob you!" Nothing about that bothers you? That's all I'm saying.

Aileen1968 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:29:34 PM)
My ancestors were from Sicily. That should qualify for some dough.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:34:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Harrison Bergeron is Vonnegut at his lowest. Helping out the underclasses isn't the same as handicapping the most capable, except according to Tea Partiers. Precisely the opposite -- deregulating the rich basically caused the financial reform. Not black people who were targeted for 'sub prime' mortgages. I'm pushing for a world where none of the citizens are 'subprime'. If anything, school funding should be equally distributed, and private schools should be either shut down or forced to equally represent all classes with progressive fee policies. Otherwise it's the same old segregation, just keep changing the terms so that no one presumably will notice. There are more radical theoretical points I could make here, but... 'you can't handle the truth'! [:D] What do you think the first property was, anyway? Right, but helping out the underclass is also not the same as 'true equality' - there are always going to be people who are smarter, or stronger, or more driven, who will have more chance of success than the average person like you or me. The biggest issue I have with your comment about private schools (this coming from someone who attended both a private and public high school and can rant for hours about the difference in educational standards) or really, the argument against paying for privilege, is that nothing is free in the world, and if you're able to buy something you're going to find someone who's able to sell it. In more real terms, even if every school was standardized to offer the same quality of education, kids whose parents have never read a book for entertainment would not get the same quality of education, and the richer people would hire private tutors to boost their child's exam grades. And besides that, the reason private schools are so good is because they charge so much - they're able to afford the best equipment, new computers, Ivy-educated teachers, and reducing their income to the level of public schools would reduce their assets by just as much. To get back on topic, there's a world of difference between class-based segregation and race-based segregation, though considering I was going to make a joke earlier about how poor people should be able to sue rich people because their ancestors made money in a pre-unionized world, I do find your consistency refreshing.

slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:37:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I think that you misunderstand me, just a bit. I'm not saying that modern whites need to pay modern black people back for slavery. I'm saying that I don't feel like people are acknowledging the long-reaching implications of the institution at all. Here, maybe another analogy would help (sorry, it's just that I think in example, like that one guy from that Star Trek episode) Your dad mugs my dad. Now my dad has no money, and your dad has money. When he dies, he leaves that money to you. I say, "Hm, something's wrong here" and you say, "So? I didn't rob you!" Nothing about that bothers you? That's all I'm saying. What bothers me(personally) is your attempt to take a subject as complex as reparations and reduce it to that silly little analogy. If anyone here is not aknowledging the long reaching effects of that institution it would be you and your mugging story....Do you really think you have made yourself better understood with that?Or that anyone who up till this point doesn't understand the whole reparations discussion.....has just obtained a new and crystal clear picture of the complex issues being bounced around here? I'm sorry I couldn't find it in my heart to be nicer about it....but that was silly and childish.

vield -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:38:13 PM)
In the discussions on this thread I see a lot of assumptions being put up. I guess it is fact that many Americans with African ancestors have the possibility or the certain knowledge of chattel slavery being a condition many of those ancestors experienced brings this particular historical slavery experience to the greatest focus of people here in the USA. Of course among those ancestors of many of us who lived in the US and Great Britain there is also the fact that the importation of slaves from Africa to the Western Hemisphere was made illegal many years before the American Civil War. The navies of Great Britain and the US performed anti-slavery patrols to try to enforce this, and these and other European nations mounted military expeditions into Africa to attempt to suppress the slave trade. Even most of the South American countries originally part of the Spanish and Portugese empires signed anti-slavery importation treaties, though I am not sure they did much to enforce them. Since Great Britain was THE dominant naval power in the world in the 1800's, enforcement by the Brits meant the importantion of slaves across the Atlantic was not a flourishing business to invest in. Great Britain also attempted in the 1800's through treaties and military expeditions to suppress the FAR larger east African slave trade, which had a major center in Zanzibar and which traded African slaves under extremely brutal conditions throughout North Africa, Turkey, the Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia and parts of India. The East African slave trade was also very important in the pre-European ivory trade and in the spread of Islam. One had to carry ivory to market, and if one's bearers were slaves you could sell them too. Other European countries such as France, Germany, and Italy participated in some of these campaigns, as did Eygpt and Turkey by the late 1800's. A lot of this took place before the idea to colonize these areas began to become policy, and some colonialization was driven by attempts to combat the slave trading in East Africa. If I remember correctly, the first known shipload of African slaves brought to North America were brought in and sold by the Dutch in the 1620's or so. Getting reparations from whoever sold those folks to the Dutch is not going to be possible. If the transactions were legally made at that time, then you'd be trying to pass an unconstitutional law now to try to enforce any modern collection of reparations.

slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:39:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 My ancestors were from Sicily. That should qualify for some dough. And who would they be seeking reparationf from...the other sicilians?

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:39:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I think that you misunderstand me, just a bit. I'm not saying that modern whites need to pay modern black people back for slavery. I'm saying that I don't feel like people are acknowledging the long-reaching implications of the institution at all. Here, maybe another analogy would help (sorry, it's just that I think in example, like that one guy from that Star Trek episode) Your dad mugs my dad. Now my dad has no money, and your dad has money. When he dies, he leaves that money to you. I say, "Hm, something's wrong here" and you say, "So? I didn't rob you!" Nothing about that bothers you? That's all I'm saying. When people are happy, and relatively successful, they want to attribute that happiness to their own agency. The difficult truth that many people will never let out of their subconscious (the subconscious knows fully well) is that their happiness relies on a whole series of factors outside of their actions and control, factors that benefit them and do not benefit others, and, in extreme cases, factors that benefit them because they do not benefit others, because their circumstances enable and reiterate their continued social ease and supremacy. Ideology such as this NYT piece exists to alleviate pressure precisely on the subconscious, which bears the burden that consciously one cannot handle.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:48:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I think that you misunderstand me, just a bit. I'm not saying that modern whites need to pay modern black people back for slavery. I'm saying that I don't feel like people are acknowledging the long-reaching implications of the institution at all. Here, maybe another analogy would help (sorry, it's just that I think in example, like that one guy from that Star Trek episode) Your dad mugs my dad. Now my dad has no money, and your dad has money. When he dies, he leaves that money to you. I say, "Hm, something's wrong here" and you say, "So? I didn't rob you!" Nothing about that bothers you? That's all I'm saying. That does make a lot more sense to me, but the biggest issue I have with that sort of paradigm is that it separates people into the 'bad guys' and the 'victims' - the point I was trying to make earlier about Africa is that the system of slavery that, as you pointed out, built this nation into one of the wealthiest, which means that it benefits black Americans as well as white Americans. I'm not saying that blacks should be grateful for slavery but at the same time, paying reparations for something means that the person was injured or harmed, and I know not everyone will feel the way I do but if I died and was going to be reincarnated today, if I had to choose between being born as an American black woman or a black woman in sub-Saharan Africa, I wouldn't hesitate before choosing. If you pick a white American, a black American, and a black African at random, odds are you'll be able to draw more similarities between the two Americans than between the two blacks.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:50:15 PM)
quote: If the transactions were legally made at that time, then you'd be trying to pass an unconstitutional law now to try to enforce any modern collection of reparations. Excellent point. There are safeguards in the US legal system that prevent you from charging a person for doing something on Monday that wasn't a crime until Wednesday.

ShoreBound149 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:53:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I'm saying that I don't feel like people are acknowledging the long-reaching implications of the institution at all. Most people I know clearly understand that historically Black people got screwed. quote: Here, maybe another analogy would help. Your dad mugs my dad. Now my dad has no money, and your dad has money. When he dies, he leaves that money to you. I say, "Hm, something's wrong here" and you say, "So? I didn't rob you!" Nothing about that bothers you? That's all I'm saying Bad analogy. No one in my family tree owned slaves. In fact, most white people didn't own slaves. It was a relatively small percentage of the overall white population (the rich landowner folks) that owned slaves many generations ago. It's not as easy a one to one analogy as "my dad versus your dad".

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:53:15 PM)
Elisabella, There is definitely NOT a world of difference between class discrimination and race discrimination. Some, but not much. Ever notice how in many cases poverty can divide along racial lines? I believe that class discrimination often has a racial basis. No, what there's a "world of difference between" is African nations like Nigeria, which is actually growing though not up to par with the U.S., and guaranteed murder/rape/genocide/famine. Slavemike, Seems I may have touched a nerve with that last analogy? You spent a few sentences railing about it, but made no effort to explain why my analogy sucks. Please do, I'm willing to listen. You started off well with your first response to me, I really mean that, but this last one you just got pissed, kind of like your post directed at Brain where you spent a whole paragraph just to say : "Hey Brain! You suck! Shut up!" You think my analogy is an oversimplification? Fair enough. But silly? I think that just means you're a bit miffed.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:58:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray Elisabella, There is definitely NOT a world of difference between class discrimination and race discrimination. Some, but not much. Ever notice how in many cases poverty can divide along racial lines? I believe that class discrimination often has a racial basis. The difference between class inequality and racial inequality is that the advantages of being upper class are directly tied to money (as money is the primary form of exchange used, having more money means having more opportunity to exchange) whereas there is nothing inherent about skin color to say one shade is more or less valuable than the other. If I got into a private school by paying $50k a year, the school would directly benefit from that money - it would be able to buy better equipment and hire better teachers. If I got into a private school because I was white, there would be no tangible benefit to the school (nor any reflected benefit back to me) that would be negated if I had more melanin in my skin.

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:58:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149 quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I'm saying that I don't feel like people are acknowledging the long-reaching implications of the institution at all. Most people I know clearly understand that historically Black people got screwed. quote: Here, maybe another analogy would help. Your dad mugs my dad. Now my dad has no money, and your dad has money. When he dies, he leaves that money to you. I say, "Hm, something's wrong here" and you say, "So? I didn't rob you!" Nothing about that bothers you? That's all I'm saying Bad analogy. No one in my family tree owned slaves. In fact, most white people didn't own slaves. It was a relatively small percentage of the overall white population (the rich landowner folks) that owned slaves many generations ago. It's not as easy a one to one analogy as "my dad versus your dad". Just take "your" to mean "whoever owned slaves." There. Better? That was easy! Geez why am I posting so much? This is fun! Thank you Elisabella and Slavemike, for making it worth staying up this late! (No sarcasm!)

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/24/2010 12:14:49 AM)
quote: The difference between class inequality and racial inequality is that the advantages of being upper class are directly tied to money (as money is the primary form of exchange used, having more money means having more opportunity to exchange) whereas there is nothing inherent about skin color to say one shade is more or less valuable than the other. What about if the presence of said money is a direct result of the advantages of higher privilege based on ethnicity? I'm less likely to acquire this money if I have to deal with discriminatory hiring and glass ceilings. And there are people who would use the income disparity as a vehicle for subtle racism.

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