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African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:04:57 AM

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Interesting Op-ed article in todays Times discussing African complicity in the slave trade and how that would affect and color any reparations conversation.
From my own point of view ...reparations seems to be a non-starter due to the inability to compensate those directly actually verifiably injured by the trade while punishing those individuals and corporations only that directly actually verifably benifited from the evil industry.
the full article is here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?ref=todayspaper

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 11:11:08 AM

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I would agree it would be a non-starter too. The ones who were directly actually verifiably injured (or enslaved do you mean?) are gone. All thats left are the ancestors of those people who were both enslaved and who benefitted. And how would you decide who should be compensated? A person like Obama would definitely not be entitled to any compensation, imo, because neither of his parents were slaves. Michelle Obama would be another story as her ancestry is traced to slavery, yet she has a better education and has had more opportunities, despite her ancestry. So how do you decide who would get what?

By the way, the author of that article is Henry Louis Gates, the black professor who was arrested at his home by a white police officer in MA last year.

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 11:15:01 AM

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Its long been known about the african complicitity in the slave trade. Without the help of many tribes in africa, the slave trade would have never happened on the grand scale that it did. Has any other country been called upon to make retributions? The US wasnt the only ones buying slaves at the time. What of the other countries? What of the Roman empire who traded slaves as commodities... have they ever been called upon to make it "right"?

The notion of restitution is outdated, since it would be impossible to determine who is eligible.

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 6:26:44 PM

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Oddly, we were talking along these lines tonight, the issue of making apologies for the actions of ancestors. In this case with no one living who traded slaves, why is it expected that future generations should apologise for the actions of their ancestors ? What purpose does it serve ?

And in the case of slaves, it did not just happen to Africans, many countries of the world have experienced this trade, should all countries concerned similarly apologise for ancient actions ?

The point of history, is that we learn from it, see the mistakes and try not to repeat them.

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 6:52:56 PM

Brain

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I am not blaming Africans for slavery. This story in the New York Times is just a sneaky way for white people to avoid taking responsibility for their despicable behavior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Interesting Op-ed article in todays Times discussing African complicity in the slave trade and how that would affect and color any reparations conversation.
From my own point of view ...reparations seems to be a non-starter due to the inability to compensate those directly actually verifiably injured by the trade while punishing those individuals and corporations only that directly actually verifably benifited from the evil industry.
the full article is here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?ref=todayspaper

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 6:58:12 PM

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Mike, will you be discussing this in this thread or "not discussing" like in the Arizona thread?

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 8:11:49 PM

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{fast reply}

Greetings all....

Most of what Americans think they know about historical slavery is at best half right. What they know about the historical slave trade is probably at best ten percent right. What most Americans know about slavery throughout history and up to now is still mostly wrong. There were more slaves taken and sold in Africa by black African tribes and Arabs than by whites by at least a factor of 100. The white slavers bought their merchandise mostly from blacks and arabs. The unbroken chain of historical slavery ended as I recall in Ethiopia in 1965. Yes, blacks were keeping legal black slaves into the lifetime of many people who are reading CM's forums. South and Central American Indians were also enslaved by the Spanish and Portuguese and their condition of slavery was at least as bad as the worst in the American South and generally worse than that.

The conditions of slavery were vastly different in different times and places. Roman slavery was different from Chinese slavery from 1700's Arab slavery from North or South American slavery. So, if you want someone to pay "retributions" for slavery you are going to have to figure out who was enslaving whom when and where and act accordingly. Do you just charge the person who ended up with a slave or the one who captured and enslaved them in the first place? Or do you do what is usually done and only go after first people you can reach and who have money? This is what is going on in the US today with calls for payments. Combine that with the people agitating for it being the self-proclaimed leaders of the "black movements" or "black people" and their trying to get money and power for themselves and it all comes clear as to what is really going on.

People who want power always hate people who have facts and are not afraid to use them.

Be well all.....

Malkinius

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 9:01:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Mike, will you be discussing this in this thread or "not discussing" like in the Arizona thread?

Pops you know better than that....I will "discuss" anything at anytime with anybody(though I do reserve the right to have an actual life...which means at times I might not be chaines to the laptop).
Now do you care to explain what you mean by not "discussing" as it relates to the Arizona thread?
Are you implying I entered the thread knowing my own mind and how I felt about it before I ever started the damm thread....damm right I am a very opinionated perosn....by the way so are you.
Let me know what it is you want to discuss...and we will bounce it around a bit.....but please don't sit there and insinuate I am afraid,or somehow not willing to exchange ideas.I bring some to the table,but so does everyone else.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 9:07:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am not blaming Africans for slavery. This story in the New York Times is just a sneaky way for white people to avoid taking responsibility for their despicable behavior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Interesting Op-ed article in todays Times discussing African complicity in the slave trade and how that would affect and color any reparations conversation.
From my own point of view ...reparations seems to be a non-starter due to the inability to compensate those directly actually verifiably injured by the trade while punishing those individuals and corporations only that directly actually verifably benifited from the evil industry.
the full article is here...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?ref=todayspaper

Brain you have fast become an irrelavant voice here on collarme.....did you even read the fucking story or decide before hand that this is what it was about.
With each successive post you reveal yourself as someone with no curiousity and no intellectual honesty.....all you offer is your own narrow POV and no patience for looking at things with fresh eyes and an open mind.
Grow up and get a life...away from the keyboard,you have absolutely no future as a blogger or as an honestcommentator on the news of the day!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Brain)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 9:28:59 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I am not blaming Africans for slavery. This story in the New York Times is just a sneaky way for white people to avoid taking responsibility for their despicable behavior.

You are an idiot.

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(in reply to Brain)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 9:29:59 PM

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What is your heritage, Brain? Bet someone in your family tree swung a leash at some point.

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 9:42:19 PM

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A few comments:

1) Brain is not irrelevant. I like Brain's commentary, generally.

2) This is a pretty crappy article, even by New York Times standards.

3) Brain is right, that this is ideology through and through (when I speak of ideology, it's almost always carries a negative connotation.)

4) From the article, Barack Obama's views on reparations: “He told us what he thought about reparations. He agreed entirely with the theory of reparations. But in practice he didn’t think it was really workable.” Typical-- reminds me of his view on single payer action. "In theory, I have novel ideas. But in practice, I just do what's expected of me."

5) Fair-playing-field politics (as opposed to America's current mode, socialism-for-the-rich) would have a very similar effect to targeting out people for race.

6) Of course Obama isn't descended from slaves. It'll be years before America elects a black person to the oval office who isn't 'decaffeinated'.

7) In Africa at the time, especially West Africa, for many it was a matter of enslave or be enslaved. You had to buy guns to defend yourself; the only way you could buy guns was by selling slaves. If you were a leader who impeded the slave trade, the Europeans would have you ousted. Complicit? That's basically wrong, or at least it obscures the important points.

8) Rain on, Brain!

Points 5) and 7) are the most critical.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 9:53:14 PM

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And what of other countries buying slaves at the same time, or even later into the 60's? I suppose all that is a lie as well.

Fact is, african tribes enslaved africans, then sold them. Now, while the US part of this saga is not something to be proud of, slavery, at the time, was a legal institution, in the US as well as abroad.

I see no point to restitutions for something that was legal. Was it wrong? Yep. If we are basing it soley upon it being wrong, when do the Native Americans get theirs? When does the gay community? When do women?

Do we stop at legal ownership or does it also include financial slavery? Emotional?

This is an extremely slippery slope. I also agree with Obama. In theory it sounds great. But there is no pratical way to apply it equally to all people who have been "enslaved".

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Silence8)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:06:59 PM

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Silence8,I will grant your"Brain is not irrelevant" point....I should have been clearer,instead of making such a general statement(after all I do not speak for the entirety of the audience here)I should have said ...."I find you irrelevant" which in fact would have been true.
I thought the article was fine...and did in fact look at things in an even handed way....if like Brain you refuse to look at African complicity in the slave trade than you are in effect declaring a desire to stick your head in the sand.Your claim that "for many it was a matter of enslave or be enslaved" doesn't hold water nor excuse their complicity...you might as well state that for a southern planter in colonial &pre civil war America it was a case of own slaves or lose your land.Such were the economic conditions.
See how niether argument excuses such a momentous crime?
by the way point 5 is a little muddy...what are you trying to say there....point 7 is,as I said in the previous paragraph....complete rubbish!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:12:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And what of other countries buying slaves at the same time, or even later into the 60's? I suppose all that is a lie as well.

Fact is, african tribes enslaved africans, then sold them. Now, while the US part of this saga is not something to be proud of, slavery, at the time, was a legal institution, in the US as well as abroad.

I see no point to restitutions for something that was legal. Was it wrong? Yep. If we are basing it soley upon it being wrong, when do the Native Americans get theirs? When does the gay community? When do women?

Do we stop at legal ownership or does it also include financial slavery? Emotional?

This is an extremely slippery slope. I also agree with Obama. In theory it sounds great. But there is no pratical way to apply it equally to all people who have been "enslaved".

Yeah, or maybe it's just a way to deflect attention from really existing social inequality, which just so happens to fall along racial lines a lot of the time.

LOL... if it weren't a legal institution at the time, then would there be a basis? Focus!

In fact, if we could start anywhere, we would start at making legal representation fair and equal. And make criminal backgrounds disappear once 'criminals' (usually black people) 'serve' (woops... the truth came out) their time.

So, yeah, Brain, not Obama, is right (surprise, surprise). This argument is ideological and not logical. This trash doesn't fly.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:14:30 PM

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quote:

Yeah, or maybe it's just a way to deflect attention from really existing social inequality, which just so happens to fall along racial lines a lot of the time.

LOL... if it weren't a legal institution at the time, then would there be a basis? Focus!

In fact, if we could start anywhere, we would start at making legal representation fair and equal. And make criminal backgrounds disappear once 'criminals' (usually black people) 'serve' (woops... the truth came out) their time.

So, yeah, Brain, not Obama, is right (surprise, surprise). This argument is ideological and not logical. This trash doesn't fly.

Whoa.. criminals are usually black people????

Sorta like welfare recipients are black as well????

A bit racist, are you?

quote:

LOL... if it weren't a legal institution at the time, then would there be a basis? Focus!

Perhaps you need to back away from the hyperfocus. If it was not legal, then monetary damages could be awarded. You cannot fine or charge someone for doing something that is legal.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 4/23/2010 10:17:41 PM >

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Silence8)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:24:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Silence8,I will grant your"Brain is not irrelevant" point....I should have been clearer,instead of making such a general statement(after all I do not speak for the entirety of the audience here)I should have said ...."I find you irrelevant" which in fact would have been true.
I thought the article was fine...and did in fact look at things in an even handed way....if like Brain you refuse to look at African complicity in the slave trade than you are in effect declaring a desire to stick your head in the sand.Your claim that "for many it was a matter of enslave or be enslaved" doesn't hold water nor excuse their complicity...you might as well state that for a southern planter in colonial &pre civil war America it was a case of own slaves or lose your land.Such were the economic conditions.
See how niether argument excuses such a momentous crime?
by the way point 5 is a little muddy...what are you trying to say there....point 7 is,as I said in the previous paragraph....complete rubbish!

If southern landowners really owned their land, then they shouldn't have to worry about losing it, right? It's not Africa's fault that America was bought up and made into feudalism 2.0 by the wealthy elite. That was the appeal of 'going west' -- not expanding America but precisely getting away from America and its tyrannical powers-that-be!

American slavery is the issue. American slavery was wrong. American slavery was wholly instituted by European Americans. They were doing something wrong. This isn't hot potato.

Equal access to education and basic resources will make these points mute. Instead, ACORN was defunded and white collar crime = American business.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:27:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Yeah, or maybe it's just a way to deflect attention from really existing social inequality, which just so happens to fall along racial lines a lot of the time.

LOL... if it weren't a legal institution at the time, then would there be a basis? Focus!

In fact, if we could start anywhere, we would start at making legal representation fair and equal. And make criminal backgrounds disappear once 'criminals' (usually black people) 'serve' (woops... the truth came out) their time.

So, yeah, Brain, not Obama, is right (surprise, surprise). This argument is ideological and not logical. This trash doesn't fly.

Whoa.. criminals are usually black people????

Sorta like welfare recipients are black as well????

A bit racist, are you?

quote:

LOL... if it weren't a legal institution at the time, then would there be a basis? Focus!

Perhaps you need to back away from the hyperfocus. If it was not legal, then monetary damages could be awarded. You cannot fine or charge someone for doing something that is legal.

Wow.

You realize that people read this shit?

Addressing a problem isn't the same as condoning it-- that's what I'm doing, addressing a really existent, empirically undeniable problem. Ignoring a problem and supporting stupid fucking arguments about African slave traders -- that's what you're doing. If anyone is being racist by ignoring that race is an issue, hmmm... let's see... yeah... and the candidate... is... you.

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RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:28:55 PM

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quote:

The Atlantic slave trade peaked in the late 18th century, when the largest number of slaves were captured on raiding expeditions into the interior of West Africa.[citation needed] These expeditions were typically carried out by African kingdoms against weaker African tribes and peoples. These mass slavers included the Oyo empire (Yoruba), Kong Empire, Kingdom of Benin, Kingdom of Fouta Djallon, Kingdom of Fouta Tooro, Kingdom of Koya, Kingdom of Khasso, Kingdom of Kaabu, Fante Confederacy, Ashanti Confederacy, and the kingdom of Dahomey. Europeans rarely entered the interior of Africa, due to fear of disease and moreover fierce African resistance.[50]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade

Yeah, wholely instituted by European Americans.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Silence8)

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... - 4/23/2010 10:29:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

7) In Africa at the time, especially West Africa, for many it was a matter of enslave or be enslaved. You had to buy guns to defend yourself; the only way you could buy guns was by selling slaves. If you were a leader who impeded the slave trade, the Europeans would have you ousted. Complicit? That's basically wrong, or at least it obscures the important points.

Points 5) and 7) are the most critical.

Except there was slavery in Africa before Europeans bought them:

quote:

Slavery in Africa, the institution of slavery as it existed in Africa, and the effects of world slave-trade systems on African people and societies. As in most of the world, slavery, or involuntary human servitude, was practiced across Africa from prehistoric times to the modern era.

http://autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64ContentFiles/AfricanHistory/SlaveryInAfrica.html

And continues to this day:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa

So you can't really blame the Europeans for a problem that existed before they came and after they left.

(in reply to Silence8)

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